The rebuild thread.

[BSN07]

Lowrie stated money is his #1 driving force in FA. I don't see the Sox being the top bidder.

 

Sox gotta get a LH hitter at 3B. Whether it's Cecchini or a FA.

[a700hitter]

Lowrie stated money is his #1 driving force in FA. I don't see the Sox being the top bidder.

 

Sox gotta get a LH hitter at 3B. Whether it's Cecchini or a FA.

I think money is the #1 priority of most players. That doesn't mean that he will get it.

[seabeachfred]

have you never met Pal the Lowrie Lover before?

 

I guess it wasn't on this board but on others I was a strong Lowrie fan. I think injuries and the fact the Red Sox underestimated and undermined him cost them a player that was a good fit for the Red Sox. The guy is no Ozzie Smith but can play short, third and second and, unlike some "phenom" we had at shortstop most of this year, Jed has proven that be can hit when it counts. I also think he would love to come back to Boston. I wouldn't diss him completely, but will say he will not end up here because in his own words he said money will be the motivating factor as to where he goes and with John "Prune Face" Henry hold onto his wallet for dear life that matchup will not take place.

[dupree]

Why would we spend money on Jed Lowrie when we have Brock Holt already in the mix. Holt is younger and is just as able to play just as many positions as Lowrie. I think is a dumb waste of money. I hope WMB turns it around that way most people on here has to eat their words. Also people talk about the Red sox ideal of working the count with long at bats, well Pablo Sandoval is not that. He hits early in the counts on a majority of soft line drives or slow rollers when no way in hell his fat ass ever beats out any grounders. I see a lot on this board just wanting to throw any change to not have a season we had last year. Pitching is the main concern and as the same for the back end of the bullpen. Look we need to win in the first part of next season so an extension can be worked out with Cespedes. Hes not gonna stay here if we are not winning and who could blame him. In Ben we Trust because let's face it we don't have any other options. We have log jams in the outfield but for some reason log jams usually seem to be taken care of by injuries so I'd say let's just wait and see.

[seabeachfred]

Why would we spend money on Jed Lowrie when we have Brock Holt already in the mix. Holt is younger and is just as able to play just as many positions as Lowrie. I think is a dumb waste of money. I hope WMB turns it around that way most people on here has to eat their words. Also people talk about the Red sox ideal of working the count with long at bats, well Pablo Sandoval is not that. He hits early in the counts on a majority of soft line drives or slow rollers when no way in hell his fat ass ever beats out any grounders. I see a lot on this board just wanting to throw any change to not have a season we had last year. Pitching is the main concern and as the same for the back end of the bullpen. Look we need to win in the first part of next season so an extension can be worked out with Cespedes. Hes not gonna stay here if we are not winning and who could blame him. In Ben we Trust because let's face it we don't have any other options. We have log jams in the outfield but for some reason log jams usually seem to be taken care of by injuries so I'd say let's just wait and see.

 

Dupree, good to see you were able to get away and post on the board today. You nailed it with Lowrie, but when you mention Holt I don't think they want to play him at shortstop. He will play some third, outfield, second and maybe a little at that position. I just think the Red Sox had better have a Plan B for when Bogaerts screws up again next season. Oh yes, he may come around and be the player the Sox predicted he would be, but his pathetically weak hitting with RISP all season was a total blazing red flag for me. And he isn't that great at shortstop or third base for that matter. Just want to have short covered just in case. And for the record, I am not a big fan of signing Pablo Sandoval either. He swings at almost everything, can't run and will be too expensive and the years it would take to get his name on a contract would block not only Holt but Cecchini and a couple of young third sackers we have in the system. Yes, pitching must be the key for us next season and all this ******** from Cherington that me may not need a No. 1 or 2 tells me he wants Red Sox fans to watch other teams on TV next fall too. Well that's bogus for me because the Sox have been out of the playoffs four of the last five seasons and I want us in next year. Quality pitching will get us there, not the kind of dumpster signings that he is hinting at.

[a700hitter]

Why would we spend money on Jed Lowrie when we have Brock Holt already in the mix. Holt is younger and is just as able to play just as many positions as Lowrie. I think is a dumb waste of money. I hope WMB turns it around that way most people on here has to eat their words. Also people talk about the Red sox ideal of working the count with long at bats, well Pablo Sandoval is not that. He hits early in the counts on a majority of soft line drives or slow rollers when no way in hell his fat ass ever beats out any grounders. I see a lot on this board just wanting to throw any change to not have a season we had last year. Pitching is the main concern and as the same for the back end of the bullpen. Look we need to win in the first part of next season so an extension can be worked out with Cespedes. Hes not gonna stay here if we are not winning and who could blame him. In Ben we Trust because let's face it we don't have any other options. We have log jams in the outfield but for some reason log jams usually seem to be taken care of by injuries so I'd say let's just wait and see.

I doubt that WMB is in the plans for 2015. His career has crashed and burned. I'll gladly eat those words if he miraculous gets a chance and produces.

[dupree]

I think a signing of Chase Headley would be nice. A one year pillow contract with a mutual deal for a second with maybe 10 to 13 per would get it done.

 

Trade Vic. Hes useless only hitting RH

 

Trade for Tyron Ross from SD. I like him better than Hamels. Younger, less guaranteed $, better stuff, prolly would excell in the AL more than Hamels

 

Trade for Tulo to man SS. Hes the answer to the future. Send Bogey and pitching call it a done deal.

 

Sign Lester

 

Sign Sheilds

 

Resign Koji

 

Sign Sergio Romo

 

Sign veteran C, LHH

 

Go over the Salary Cap if needed... spend ben spend

 

WMB & JBJ start in AAA

Make them prove they deserve to be in the MLB and start hitting

 

Lineup

Betts CF

Peddy 2B

Ortiz DH

Cespedes LF

Tulo SS

Napoli 1B

Headley 3rd

Vazquez C

Castillo RF

 

Bench

Nava, Craig, Holt, LHH C

 

Rotation

Lester, Sheilds, Ross, Bucholtz, Kelly

 

Bullpen

Koji, Taz, Romo, Mujica, Britton, Layne, Breslow

 

2015 World Series Champion

Make it happen Ben

[seabeachfred]

I think a signing of Chase Headley would be nice. A one year pillow contract with a mutual deal for a second with maybe 10 to 13 per would get it done.

 

Trade Vic. Hes useless only hitting RH

 

Trade for Tyron Ross from SD. I like him better than Hamels. Younger, less guaranteed $, better stuff, prolly would excell in the AL more than Hamels

 

Trade for Tulo to man SS. Hes the answer to the future. Send Bogey and pitching call it a done deal.

 

Sign Lester

 

Sign Sheilds

 

Resign Koji

 

Sign Sergio Romo

 

Sign veteran C, LHH

 

Go over the Salary Cap if needed... spend ben spend

 

WMB & JBJ start in AAA

Make them prove they deserve to be in the MLB and start hitting

 

Lineup

Betts CF

Peddy 2B

Ortiz DH

Cespedes LF

Tulo SS

Napoli 1B

Headley 3rd

Vazquez C

Castillo RF

 

Bench

Nava, Craig, Holt, LHH C

 

Rotation

Lester, Sheilds, Ross, Bucholtz, Kelly

 

Bullpen

Koji, Taz, Romo, Mujica, Britton, Layne, Breslow

 

2015 World Series Champion

Make it happen Ben

 

I don't want to shoot my friend down but that will never happen. It will take too much money for FA and trades that will cost the Red Sox some of their prize pets and we know they will hold onto their pets and be unwilling to put down the real money for the solid players they need.....as in pitching. You just watch!!!!! They will do some dumpster diving this off season and try to sell it to the public as pulling the wool over the eyes of those they thought they fleeced while it is they who will wind up with egg on their faces, and the worse of it is that we have a few here and on other boards who will swallow it hook line and sinker and gag on the Kool Aid. It sure would be good, though, to see that kind of team on the field.

[dupree]

I respectfully disagree Fred. I think the FO have been dumpster diving the last few years and then it all came together and everything went right and they won a title without stretching the checkbook. Well the owners know they can't throw out a rotation headlined of Bucholtz with young prospects with the likes of maybe Liriano and Burnett or another old veteran. The fanbase was not there pretty much the the entire year excluding the first month of the year and the last month looking at the call ups. I see the owners opening up the check book and spending to get back in respectful contention.

 

I find it hard to believe we stand pat with over the hill second chance veterans instead of spending the cash needed to put assessment in the stands and people at home and in the bars watching a winning sox team. Ben had a golden horseshoe for one year and it paid off. Now he has positioned himself to address the biggest need this offseason. All the prospects will not pan out. Why keep them locked and blocked in the minors to have assets and never move them. I say make the trades and bring the chips in here to win now and in the future.

[RiceLynnEvans]

Wish I could be as optimistic about the FO opening their wallets; I think they'll make moves, but something about the tone of things coming out of the FO that makes me wonder just how far they'll go. I really didn't think it was smart opening the season with two rookies and AJ up the middle, that stiff WMB at 3b, aging Vic (it wasn't "if" but "when" he'll get hurt) with Nava/Gomes and JBJ as the starting outfield. Too many expectations with far too many uncertainties - overestimating the market on Drew, not giving Salty at least a qualifying offer, and, again, Nava/Gomes, JBJ and Vic with no real safety net for Nava's early nose dive, Vic's inevitable injury and Gomes' lack of d and hot-(mostly)cold bat.

 

I thought there were going to be more fireworks after the big trades at the deadline - it seemed that all the moves pointed to flipping Cespedes or Craig along with a mix of vets and kids for a game changer or top-tier prospect. Maybe the flip is yet to come - with our history with the Dodgers, maybe the flip will be for Kemp and/or Hanley....but with Craig's value having plummeted, maybe not. I hope they'll pay Lester, but I know if they do they'll be dumpster diving for a #2 .....first in the classier joints, then at Kelly's, but they're sure to end up overpaying for someone like Ervin Santana.

 

Castillo cf

Pedy 2b

Hanley ss

Ortiz dh

Kemp rf

Markakis lf - steal this guy! STEAL THIS GUY!

Nap 1b

Headley 3b - solid defender, + bat, short term deal

Vazquez c

 

Nava, Holt, Betts, FA catcher

 

Lester, _____, Kelly/Buch/Ruby/Web/dumpster FA....that's a BIG blank; season may hinge on it

 

Koji, Taz, Hap, Britton, Layne, Wilson, MILLER (bring Miller back with Markakis; hated losing the Miller just when the guy had learned to pitch)

 

 

Cespedes, Vic, Craig, JBJ, X, WMB, Mujica - out, don't know how far they'll dig into prospects - just hope they keep Betts.

 

 

I wouldn't really want Kemp (injury-prone) or Santana (peaked, got pounded in the Braves stretch collapse), but it'd be better than the Brandon McCarthy/Justin Masterson/AJ Happ scrap heap (not to knock these types too much, but they're not the #2s and #3s that are pitching the Sox back to October), but even this I feel is waaay overstretching what I think they'll do. Cespedes stays, Vic stays, X stays, JBJ stays, Craig stays, WMB stays and the offense sputters; they sign Lester and Hammel, maybe add Romo to the pen and we turn into the Tampa Rays.

 

Ahhhh, either way - should be fun watching how this all unfolds.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Phillies are looking to dish Hamels, Sox and Cubs most interested. Also noteworthy is that they will do anything to get Ryan Howard off the team.

 

Definitely do not want Howard, but if you can say "ok we'll take Howard too" and the cost of Hamels goes down a bit, well then maybe you do it.

 

http://www.nj.com/phillies/index.ssf/2014/10/mlb_hot_stove_phillies_will_look_to_trade_cole_hamels_chicago_cubs_boston_red_sox_interested_per_rep.html

[curiousd]

Count me as someone who thinks OBP is overrated now, and the Sox were way too willing to try to drive up pitch counts, just for the sake of driving up pitch counts. I was thinking early in the season that almost every Sox hitter seemed to go up to the plate with the intention of drawing a walk. That's not likely to work well when the other team knows that is what you're trying to do. At some point, you need to hit the ball. For an extreme example, a team that hits the ball 35% of the time (all types of hits) and never walks is going to score a whole lot more runs than a team that walks 35% of the time but never gets a hit, even though their OBP will be the same. The other teams have caught on to the Sox, and are getting ahead in the count. One stat that isn't debatable is that players hit much worse when down in the count.

 

Here is (to me) interesting information I have heard about Kansas City. Last year, during the 2013 championship year for the RS, I heard several discussions by the RS announcers to the effect that KC had at that time the best bullpen in baseball...shut down BP with power arms. This is consistent with what these announcers say this year. Plus, at the time of this post KC is two games up on L.A. in the ALDS and the KC bullpen has absolutely shut down the LA offense. With all this in mind see the following quote from the Kansas City Star, October 4, 2014:

 

By the memory of many baseball people, the best combination of eighth- and ninth-inning relievers in the last generation of the game may be the 1996 Yankees. This is hard to believe for people who don’t remember it, but Mariano Rivera was actually the setup guy for John Wetteland.

 

Ask around, and you will also hear mentions of the 2010 Rangers (Neftali Feliz and Alexi Ogando), the 2003 Dodgers (Eric Gagne’s Cy Young year with Guillermo Mota setting up) and the 2007 Red Sox (Jonathan Papelbon with Hideki Okajima setting up), among many others.

 

But what if you read that by at least one measure, no pair of relievers has ever done what Holland and Davis are doing?

 

Stretched out over a full season, Holland is tracking to strike out 100 batters over 63 innings, giving up 62 baserunners with a 1.52 ERA.

 

Davis’ pace is for 119 strikeouts over 74 innings, giving up 62 baserunners with a 1.32 ERA.

 

Together, the current pace adds up to 219 strikeouts over 137 innings with 124 baserunners allowed and a 1.47 ERA.

 

Consider the O's. There was a discussion I heard someplace that nowadays set up or even middle relievers who are really good will command ridiculous salaries next year and that Andrew Miller might set some kind of record in this regard for 2015. Unfortunately I don't remember where I heard this....FM radio, or perhaps an Oriole's station.

Edited October 4, 2014 by curiousd

[Spudboy]

Phillies are looking to dish Hamels, Sox and Cubs most interested. Also noteworthy is that they will do anything to get Ryan Howard off the team.

 

Definitely do not want Howard, but if you can say "ok we'll take Howard too" and the cost of Hamels goes down a bit, well then maybe you do it.

 

http://www.nj.com/phillies/index.ssf/2014/10/mlb_hot_stove_phillies_will_look_to_trade_cole_hamels_chicago_cubs_boston_red_sox_interested_per_rep.html

Then what do the Sox do with Howard? He does not hit anymore and he has a massive contract. After unloading the big contracts in the trade with the Dodgers, this would seem like a very dumb move especially if the sole motivation is to acquire a second tier pitcher who makes about 22 mil for the next few years.

 

I say no.

 

Pursue free agent pitchers first.

Edited October 4, 2014 by Spudboy

[seabeachfred]

Phillies are looking to dish Hamels, Sox and Cubs most interested. Also noteworthy is that they will do anything to get Ryan Howard off the team.

 

Definitely do not want Howard, but if you can say "ok we'll take Howard too" and the cost of Hamels goes down a bit, well then maybe you do it.

 

http://www.nj.com/phillies/index.ssf/2014/10/mlb_hot_stove_phillies_will_look_to_trade_cole_hamels_chicago_cubs_boston_red_sox_interested_per_rep.html

 

No efen way we take Howard!!!!!! If he is part of any deal then it has to be off and done with. He is fading faster than a pair of old jeans, can't hit lefties, can't field and is expensive. This is nothing like a Beckett-Lowell deal of late 2005. Stay the hell away from Howard. We don't need him and I don't want him. We have enough strike out and choke artists as it is.

[Palodios]

The phillies will need to eat Howard's contract. They will get absolutely nothing for him. I have suggested Pap and Ruiz as possible salary dumps that make sense for the Sox.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Then what do the Sox do with Howard? He does not hit anymore and he has a massive contract. After unloading the big contracts in the trade with the Dodgers, this would seem like a very dumb move especially if the sole motivation is to acquire a second tier pitcher who makes about 22 mil for the next few years.

 

I say no.

 

Pursue free agent pitchers first.

 

Apologies. That must not have read as I intended.

 

The Phillies would have to eat a good chunk of Howard's deal. The Sox would then either DFA or trade him and eat some of their portion.

 

Basically if the Phils ate 18mm/year and the Sox took on 7mm, would it be worth it if it allowed the Sox to retain a high end prospect. So, basically, would you rather pay Hamels effectively 31mm/year (bc you took Howard too) instead of 24mm, but keep someone like Swihart because of it, or would you rather save the dough and spend the extra high level prospect?

[Palodios]

Apologies. That must not have read as I intended.

 

The Phillies would have to eat a good chunk of Howard's deal. The Sox would then either DFA or trade him and eat some of their portion.

 

Basically if the Phils ate 18mm/year and the Sox took on 7mm, would it be worth it if it allowed the Sox to retain a high end prospect. So, basically, would you rather pay Hamels effectively 31mm/year (bc you took Howard too) instead of 24mm, but keep someone like Swihart because of it, or would you rather save the dough and spend the extra high level prospect?

 

At that price, why not go for Scherzer, and save the prospects? I'd rather spend 7/160 for Scherzer than 4/120 for Hamels who has 400 more innings on that arm is a year older, and hasn't pitched in the playoffs recently, or faced AL hitters.

[a700hitter]

Apologies. That must not have read as I intended.

 

The Phillies would have to eat a good chunk of Howard's deal. The Sox would then either DFA or trade him and eat some of their portion.

 

Basically if the Phils ate 18mm/year and the Sox took on 7mm, would it be worth it if it allowed the Sox to retain a high end prospect. So, basically, would you rather pay Hamels effectively 31mm/year (bc you took Howard too) instead of 24mm, but keep someone like Swihart because of it, or would you rather save the dough and spend the extra high level prospect?

you think too much of our prospects. They are not worth that kind of dough.

[Spudboy]

you think too much of our prospects. They are not worth that kind of dough.

 

I think the Sox prospects have value bunched together in the right group. But I agree that many believe the value is higher than it is. Unless the Sox brass catches someone napping.

 

And I just don't see Hamels being worth what 4/88 or whatever he has remaining in his contract.

 

The guy is a career 3.27 ERA in the NL East. That would bloat to about 4.00 or above in the AL. I's rather the Sox chase guys that have been AL East battle tested like Lester and Shields.

[jacksonianmarch]

Hamels the last 4 seasons...

 

856IP 740H 284ER 810K 205BB 2.99ERA 1.10WHIP 8.5K/9IP 2.1BB/9IP 4.0K/BB

 

Those are ridiculous numbers, regardless of league. He turns 31 in December and is signed only for 4 more yrs. If he hit the open market this offseason, he'd get a 7 yr deal easy

[Station 13]

Hamels the last 4 seasons...

 

856IP 740H 284ER 810K 205BB 2.99ERA 1.10WHIP 8.5K/9IP 2.1BB/9IP 4.0K/BB

 

Those are ridiculous numbers, regardless of league. He turns 31 in December and is signed only for 4 more yrs. If he hit the open market this offseason, he'd get a 7 yr deal easy

 

Folks forget he plays in a bandbox in Philly. I would give up Owens to get Hammels.

[jacksonianmarch]

He's the alternative to Lester. You want to see what hamels would get on the open market, see what Lester gets. And before you go on about his postseason performance, Hamels has been just as good and actually won an NLCS MVP and a World Series MVP in 08

[a700hitter]

I did prefer the days when the managers got fired and the players stayed put. Now, there are a lot of managers who have been with their teams longer than they would have been in the past. I wonder if Angel fans are sick of looking at Scioscia's face. I am. He is one of many.

[Elktonnick]

My hunch is that the Sox don't trade Owens. They steadfastly refused to trade either Lester and Buchholtz back when they were in a similar situation.

 

Re Scioscia one wonders if the micro manager finally has worn out his welcome in the Big A.

[Spudboy]

My hunch is that the Sox don't trade Owens. They steadfastly refused to trade either Lester and Buchholtz back when they were in a similar situation.

 

Re Scioscia one wonders if the micro manager finally has worn out his welcome in the Big A.

 

Of course they did trade Kelly who was their number one prospect and a pitcher ( at least in the Sox front office's eyes).

 

I think that the Sox will move anyone excluding Papi and possibly Pedroia. Almost anything is possible.

[seabeachfred]

I did prefer the days when the managers got fired and the players stayed put. Now, there are a lot of managers who have been with their teams longer than they would have been in the past. I wonder if Angel fans are sick of looking at Scioscia's face. I am. He is one of many.

 

The Angels fans have been bellowing on the sport-talk shows how Scioscia has pretty much lost it and cannot understand some of the things he did in the just concluded ALDS---even my wife. I think most of it seemed to center on Mike's insistence on playing the slumping Josh Hamilton over a couple of younger players who performed well during the Angels' hot streak this past summer. Like most managers Scioscia has a tendency to be stubborn when it comes to personnel matters, and in this case his insistence on playing the slumping veterans over the rookies and second or third year players----something he has done continuously during his managerial career with the Angels. You may be sick at looking at his face Ted but I would take him over Farrell in two shakes of a monkey's ass. Still, I think the criticism coming Mike's way is justified in light of the just finished results.

[jacksonianmarch]

Scoscia is a great manager. His problem is, he is managing the wrong team. When the Angels won the WS and were a tough out altogether, they didn't have a middle of the order with thumpers. They had guys who could run, made good contact, had good defense and lockdown relief. Scoscia would thrive a la Ned Yost with a Royals team from this yr. Currently, he's hamstrung with big contracts of guys who aren't producing

[seabeachfred]

Scoscia is a great manager. His problem is, he is managing the wrong team. When the Angels won the WS and were a tough out altogether, they didn't have a middle of the order with thumpers. They had guys who could run, made good contact, had good defense and lockdown relief. Scoscia would thrive a la Ned Yost with a Royals team from this yr. Currently, he's hamstrung with big contracts of guys who aren't producing

 

You're absolutely right Jacko and glad you made the post and added what I should have said in the first place. Scioscia likes to steal, take the extra base, play for a run or two and is not adverse to trying a bunt and run and squeeze play. The power game is not his and, though strange for me to say it, I think he may have been hamstrung with the kind of power team he has because he cannot do those things he likes to do with the talent he has. I know good managers are suppose to adapt to their personnel like your Girardi does and Maddon as well, but I think Scioscia may be wired differently. I'm making no more predictions about the playoffs because if the Big Red Sox Man in the sky were to judge my talent there I would heading for purgatory the first day after I was called home.

[jacksonianmarch]

Scoscia is stuck because he's been forced by his FO into the 3 run homer approach.

[Elktonnick]

In baseball like poker you play the cards your dealt. Scoscia is a micro manager. In my opinion his style of over management hurts his team especially in the playoffs. His catchers are constantly looking over the dugout for signs from him. I doubt if he would have done any better regardless of which team he had, KC SF etc.