8/4 vs Arizona

[User Name]

That's fine - wOBA works for me - and it does look like OBP statistically which makes things easier to explain. OPS is good for simplicity I suppose, but an .800 OPS guy who is not getting on 30% of the time. (Hello Pedro Alvarez) is creating a lot less punch than say Dustin Pedroia. Granted, Pedro Alvarez' hulk-smash factor with homeruns is fun to see.

 

Yeah not all OPS values are created equal, but under normal circumstances it's a good tool for comparing players to one another, granted you revise for statistical outliers (like Alfonso Soriano, who has had two 800+ OPS seasons with a sub .330 OBP).

[Palodios]

OPS is a terrible stat - but good training wheels. .800 is probably a good OPS, but without the components there is no value.

 

Reasons OPS is lousy, without getting into fancy reasons like park effects:

 

1. Different denominators: maximum OBP is 1, maximum SLG = 4 (hit a homerun every time up)

2. OBP is WAY more important than slugging - roughly 40% more by the regression standards. Theoretically this is clear too. A 1.000 SLG team could hit 1 homerun every inning. A 1.000 OBP team would never be retired.

3. SLG treats all bases equally - when that is not true when considering the impact on scoring a run.

 

Terrible? That's a bit of hyperbole. OPS is the best starting point for a more complex discussion of the offensive value of a player. It isn't perfect --especially for small sample sizes -- but all good hitters have good OPS's over their careers. .700/.800/.900/1.000 marks will show you exactly how good a hitter is.

[User Name]

WAR is probably the best - whichever publication's version you use. That said, definitely consult the components there too. If a guy's WAR is all on the defensive side - then his value has to be looked at skeptically. We know defensive measurement is light years better than it used to be - but it is still much flimsier than the offensive measurements. Of course when you are nearly twice as valuable as your peers like Mike Trout was last year, who cares.

 

I've done quite a bit of research on WAR's defensive component, and have come to find out that because of sample size and combined range among fielders issues, UZR (which is the defensive measure use by Fangraphs' WAR) is excellent for 3B and the OF, but ranges decent to bad for C, 1B, 2B and SS.

[sk7326]

Terrible? That's a bit of hyperbole. OPS is the best starting point for a more complex discussion of the offensive value of a player. It isn't perfect --especially for small sample sizes -- but all good hitters have good OPS's over their careers.

 

I noted it is a good training wheels stat if you have been raised on saves, pitcher wins and RBIs your whole life. But it has enough flaws to go to another place to measure offensive ability. Heck, the OBP part of the equation in some ways is sufficient - it is the fundamental job of a hitter.

[Emmz]

So, when the AL league average SS has a .659 OPS, and the AL league average 1B has a .775 OPS, you're saying regardless of position, an .800 OPS provides the same value, regardless of whether a player is a SS or a 1B??

 

Come on. You cannot possibly be serious.

 

That's not what I'm saying at all. If a SS has a .700 OPS (above average, right?) I'm going to say he's a mediocre hitter. If a 1B falls just short of that .775 mark, something like .770, I'm still going to think of him as a solid hitter. I respect positional values, I'll always be much more impressed with a catcher with .800 OPS than a 1B with .800 OPS, but that 1B would still be a good hitter like the catcher.

[sk7326]

I've done quite a bit of research on WAR's defensive component, and have come to find out that because of sample size and combined range among fielders issues, UZR (which is the defensive measure use by Fangraphs' WAR) is excellent for 3B and the OF, but ranges decent to bad for C, 1B, 2B and SS.

 

Weird OFs can also have an impact - like Fenway's LF ... it is hard to really capture that effect well. C and 1B measures are tough absolutely. But that is where the components matter. WAR is a good do everything stat - but yeah it is not sufficient to just write down the WAR leaders and stop there when looking at "who is MVP" or whatever.

[Emmz]

I noted it is a good training wheels stat if you have been raised on saves, pitcher wins and RBIs your whole life. But it has enough flaws to go to another place to measure offensive ability. Heck, the OBP part of the equation in some ways is sufficient - it is the fundamental job of a hitter.

 

Most people here don't really get into sabermetrics or anything, so OPS/OPS+ is probably one of the best stats to use if you want to be acceptable.

[User Name]

Weird OFs can also have an impact - like Fenway's LF ... it is hard to really capture that effect well. C and 1B measures are tough absolutely. But that is where the components matter. WAR is a good do everything stat - but yeah it is not sufficient to just write down the WAR leaders and stop there when looking at "who is MVP" or whatever.

 

Weird OF's are the exception rather than the rule right now though. And usually, looking at the WAR leaderboards is actually a pretty good way to determine who's contending for MVP's and Cy Youngs.

[sk7326]

Weird OF's are the exception rather than the rule right now though. And usually, looking at the WAR leaderboards is actually a pretty good way to determine who's contending for MVP's and Cy Youngs.

 

I don't think we disagree - indeed last year in the AL was a slam dunk. NL there were 5 guys in the same WAR ballpark - can't get too fired up about tenth of a run differences. The year Pedroia won in the MVP in 2008, Grady Sizemore was a 1 win clear of the field basically. That's not a large enough margin to call it a sure thing. Pedroia was 2nd that year - and an entirely defensible choice. The funny thing is the voters who named him probably used the stupid reasons like scrappiness, clutchiness and "ways to resemble David Eckstein".

[SoxFanForsyth]

Anyone else watching the PawSox game on NESN? Nice grab there by Bogaerts. Thought that was going to fall for sure.

[jung]

Just got back and switched it on. Any interesting hits so far either from XB or WMB if he is playing?

 

Renaudo must be doing well at 5-0.

[jung]

WMB just ole'ed one at third, taking it to his side, it went right over his glove. Edited August 5, 2013 by jung

[mvp 78]

Anyone else watching the PawSox game on NESN? Nice grab there by Bogaerts. Thought that was going to fall for sure.

 

Seeing away games makes me love McCoy so much more.