Should we be making a reasonable competitive offer to Ells?

[User Name]

I don't get this. 20k and 20 million are not the same thing. If I am in the 100 to 120k range, I do not understand the 20 million range. For most of us, 20 million is an abstract number that we can't truly understand. I make far, far, far less and am pretty damn comfortable and happy.

 

But you're not an athlete. Notice how most of these guys end up broke because of the lavish lifestyles they live.

 

In the world of athletics, performance brings prestige and respect far more than making money. Edgar Renteria signed for $40 million for four years...and became fat, made 30 errors, and hit about league average for a middle infielder in his one season for the Red Sox. It is simply not true that "...the prestige and respect" comes with making money. It is really about performance.

 

You tell that to the players. They (and they're the important ones here) are the ones who always say that it's more about respect than money. See: Pujols, Albert. You're free to not believe them if you want, but most of them say the same thing.

 

 

 

Are you serious? What is there in life that I want or need that I can't buy for less than $1 million. Most boys grow up with the desire to play major league baseball and would be willing to play for free...

 

I am serious, and are you for real? It's different once they make it to the Majors and they see themselves making all that money. You seriously understimate human avarice. I suggest you don't.

 

 

 

I think you should have left this part out. You have weakened your argument.

 

This isn't a trial. This is a friendly conversation, and i admit that there are exceptions to the but remember: Exceptions strengthen the rule.

 

 

Twenty million is a totally abstract number to most of us. What could I do with twenty million that I could not do with ten million? And don't tell me I would have prestige. Chone Figgins makes millions but does not have prestige.

 

Go tell that to all the guys who have left their hometown teams for less. Be realistic: Money is money, and a lot of these guys are greedy.

[italstallianion]

But you're not an athlete. Notice how most of these guys end up broke because of the lavish lifestyles they live.

 

 

 

You tell that to the players. They (and they're the important ones here) are the ones who always say that it's more about respect than money. See: Pujols, Albert. You're free to not believe them if you want, but most of them say the same thing.

 

 

 

 

I am serious, and are you for real? It's different once they make it to the Majors and they see themselves making all that money. You seriously understimate human avarice. I suggest you don't.

 

 

 

 

 

This isn't a trial. This is a friendly conversation, and i admit that there are exceptions to the but remember: Exceptions strengthen the rule.

 

 

 

 

Go tell that to all the guys who have left their hometown teams for less. Be realistic: Money is money, and a lot of these guys are greedy.

 

 

For what it's worth, I think a lot of players say that because it's seemingly the right thing to say to the media, as opposed to saying "hell yeah it's about the money, this team better pay up or I'm telling you *******s to shove it" they say something polished and politically correct like "I definitely want to be here, it's not about the money" or if you're a free agent just signed by the Yankees "I've wanted to be a Yankee ever since I was a little kid"

[User Name]

For what it's worth, I think a lot of players say that because it's seemingly the right thing to say to the media, as opposed to saying "hell yeah it's about the money, this team better pay up or I'm telling you *******s to shove it" they say something polished and politically correct like "I definitely want to be here, it's not about the money" or if you're a free agent just signed by the Yankees "I've wanted to be a Yankee ever since I was a little kid"

 

That only strengthens the argument though: They want more money because even though we can't fathom what to do with the sums of money they make, they sure can spend it.

 

I won't even make a list of ballplayers who have made huge money and found themselves broke not too long after retiring. It would take me all night.

[Spitball]

But you're not an athlete. Notice how most of these guys end up broke because of the lavish lifestyles they live.

 

No, that is absolutely not true. Most do not end up broke. Supporting a lavish lifestyle is a ridiculous argument for suggesting a player is justified in holding out for too many millions rather than any other amount of millions.

 

 

 

You tell that to the players. They (and they're the important ones here) are the ones who always say that it's more about respect than money. See: Pujols, Albert. You're free to not believe them if you want, but most of them say the same thing.[/Quote]

 

Pujols felt he was not respected by St. Louis management, but they really realized the foolishness of signing a 32 year-old to an outlandish/constricting contract. Look at the Angels standings and the first place Cardinals.

 

I am serious, and are you for real? It's different once they make it to the Majors and they see themselves making all that money. You seriously understimate human avarice. I suggest you don't.

 

In truth, there are probably more players who have signed below market value to stay with a particular team those who have sold out to the highest bidder.

 

This isn't a trial. This is a friendly conversation, and i admit that there are exceptions to the but remember: Exceptions strengthen the rule.

 

Okay.

 

 

Go tell that to all the guys who have left their hometown teams for less. Be realistic: Money is money, and a lot of these guys are greedy.

 

Some (particularly Boras clients) are greedy, but many stay with their hometown teams. Money is indeed money, and a million is a lot of money. Twenty-something million is an abstract amount of money.

[User Name]

No, that is absolutely not true. Most do not end up broke. Supporting a lavish lifestyle is a ridiculous argument for suggesting a player is justified in hold out for too many millions rather than any other amount of millions.

 

No, they are justified because this is a free market. They are offering a service (their baseball skills) and they can offer it to anyone they want for whatever price they want. Who are you to tell someone how much money they can or can't expect for their services?

 

 

Pujols felt he was not respected by St. Louis management, but they really realized the foolishness of signing a 32 year-old to an outlandish/constricting contract. Look at the Angels standings and the first place Cardinals.

 

That has nothing to do with the argument. He's justified in wanting whatever amount of money he wants for his services. It's on the teams whether or not they will give it to him and any other player.

 

 

In truth, there are probably more players who have signed below market value to stay with a particular team those who have sold out to the highest bidder.

 

No, and it isn't even close. Not a lot of guys sign true "team-friendly" extensions. They usually exchange some money for the security of a long-term contract and avoiding arb negotiations, but those extensions usually end right at the beginning of their FA elegibility in which case they go for the big bucks. And a lot of the other guys who sign long-term contracts with their teams sign for market value: Look at the host of pitchers who have signed contracts lately....are you going to tell me Cain, Hamels and Verlander signed below market-value contracts?

 

Some (particularly Boras clients) are greedy, but many stay with their hometown teams. Money is indeed money, and a million is a lot of money. Twenty-something million is an abstract amount of money.

 

Ellsbury is the main topic of discussion, Ellsbury is a Boras client. Make the connection.

 

Btw, i didn't introduce the twenty-million dollar figure. The figure is largely irrelevant. It's all about the player.

[Orange Juiced]

The answer to the original question is this: I think the Red Sox should make a minimally competitive offer for Ellsbury. He's a pretty good baseball player, but nothing more than that. Even factoring his ridiculous 2011 season, which seems more and more like an abberation, here are his per-162 game averages:

 

162 g, 107 r, 15 hr, 72 rbi, 53 sb, .296/.348/.439/.786, 106 ops+

 

Career dWAR of +2.7.

 

So definitely a pretty good player, great speed, above average defense. But other than that crazy 2011 season, doesn't hit for power, and doesn't really even get on base all that much for a leadoff guy.

 

Plus the injuries. Maybe it's just been bad luck. But it does come into play.

 

So we're talking about a Boras client that will be 30 at the end of this season, looking for huge money, who is a pretty good, but not great, player. What's a guy like that worth?

 

Like I said, I'd be minimally competitive. Definitely they should be talking with him and explore the options, but I wouldn't go too crazy trying to re-sign him.

[kapsis21]

if they paid Carl Crawford 6 year deal, Ellsbury being a Boras client would likely want something in that range and I dont think Boston is going to do that... esp since JBJ can bring similar skills to the plate in center field.

If Ells is okay with 13 mill offer for 5 years. done,, anything in the 17+mill i would walk away.

[SoxSport]

Still too early to tell. He hasn't shown the power yet again to get the big bucks. It's a mystery what happened to it. Maybe they discontinued his brand of spinach.

[SoxSport]

if they paid Carl Crawford 6 year deal, Ellsbury being a Boras client would likely want something in that range and I dont think Boston is going to do that... esp since JBJ can bring similar skills to the plate in center field.

If Ells is okay with 13 mill offer for 5 years. done,, anything in the 17+mill i would walk away.

 

Agree. They might not even go $13 mil. not with Bradley in the wings, and Vic on board for 3 yrs. Also, Ells doesn't walk enough to be a top flight leadoff hitter.

[Spitball]

No, they are justified because this is a free market. They are offering a service (their baseball skills) and they can offer it to anyone they want for whatever price they want. Who are you to tell someone how much money they can or can't expect for their services?

 

I said that most players are not going to blow multi-millions of dollars on a lavish lifestyle. One could easily lead a lavish lifestyle on far below one million dollars a year.

 

 

 

 

That has nothing to do with the argument. He's justified in wanting whatever amount of money he wants for his services. It's on the teams whether or not they will give it to him and any other player.

 

Again, you are not arguing my point. Pujols left St. Louis in my opinion because the Cardinals did not truly want to resign him. They had have remained competitive without him. His contract would have prevented them from signing Beltran and retaining Wainright.

 

 

No, and it isn't even close. Not a lot of guys sign true "team-friendly" extensions. They usually exchange some money for the security of a long-term contract and avoiding arb negotiations, but those extensions usually end right at the beginning of their FA elegibility in which case they go for the big bucks. And a lot of the other guys who sign long-term contracts with their teams sign for market value: Look at the host of pitchers who have signed contracts lately....are you going to tell me Cain, Hamels and Verlander signed below market-value contracts?

 

That is what I am saying. Votto, Phillips, Wainright, Kemp, Hernandez, Posey, Cain, Hamels, Verlander and many others signed below what they surely would have received on the open market.

 

Ellsbury is the main topic of discussion, Ellsbury is a Boras client. Make the connection.

 

No one is missing this point.

 

Btw, i didn't introduce the twenty-million dollar figure. The figure is largely irrelevant. It's all about the player.

 

It does not matter who introduced the number. It is a good number to use because it gives us a number to actually contemplate...and my entire point. If a player can live happily in a city of his choice making enough to meet his needs as well as his wants, why does he need to base his decision on an amount that is almost impossible to comprehend?

[User Name]

Let's put it this way to end the discussion: Some players don't care that much about making insane amounts of money, but a lot of players do care about that. Most players who are in it for the money sign with Scott Boras and take it year-to-year, and that is their prerrogative.

 

If Ellsbury wants to go to the open market (and he probably does) and sell himself to the highest bidder (and he probably does), that's his right, and there's nothing we can do about it.

[Station 13]

Right now I find it difficult to pay him more than 8 figures a season. He has zero power and it doesn't appear it will return. His approach at the plate is not very good either. He hacks at the first or second pitches too much. If he still plays like this I would just take the draft pick and move on.

[mvp 78]

Right now I find it difficult to pay him more than 8 figures a season. He has zero power and it doesn't appear it will return. His approach at the plate is not very good either. He hacks at the first or second pitches too much. If he still plays like this I would just take the draft pick and move on.

 

Someone wants to pay him 9 figures a season?!?

[Palodios]

Someone wants to pay him 9 figures a season?!?

 

*Insert best Scott Boras line ever*

[Spitball]

Jackie Bradley, Jr., injuries, Boras...I say the Sox should let him walk.

[jung]

The season is young. Ells might improve some. However I don't see him doing enough to get a stratospheric offer from anybody and I don't see anybody touching 6 years with a ten foot pole. Does not matter that much what Crawford got.

 

If he improves I would make him an offer of the non-stratospheric variety. If he does not improve I am not sure I would even make him an offer.

 

As far as how much money some of them spend, one thing to keep in mind as that their careers end at a pretty young age on a relative basis. You have to remember that the PA is always hanging right over their shoulders pushing them to squeeze every last dime out of the system that they can. I even think that in baseball that pressure is more compelling than in other sports. The PA really tries to take the position of the guys in the adjoining lockers to yours as well so that can be a good deal of pressure.

 

Even the life style forced onto them can be what we might think is extravagant. I think is was Lou Merloni that once did about a fifteen minute thing about how the clubhouse boys are paid and what you expect to get from them and what they expect to get in return. He went through how things work in a visiting clubhouse and how they work at home. It was kinda' interesting because this is not stuff we as fans think about very much.

 

So anyway, there is supposed to be a spread out there every day and depending on when the game is played (day or night) and whether there is a double header, the menu will change. Even for the 25th guy on the roster it usually works out to something like $150 per game when you are in the visiting locker room. This includes tip. Some of the wealthier players contribute much more but it is sort of expected that they contribute much more. Granted the only reason you might find peanut butter and jelly sandwiches on the table might be because somebody loves them so much that they want them there for a quick sugar fix. The stuff is all really top shelf. Still though you have the 25th guy contributing $450 for a three game series and the guys with the real dough-ray-me contributing as much as $1,000 or more for a three game series. Yes there is a per diem but it does not get close to what they guys spend when you consider first having to take care of the clubhouse boys.

 

Anyway there are many influences pulling at these guys to spend even if they are not "spendy" by nature.

[SoxSport]

Unless he comes around, the handwriting is on the wall. In the presence of Victorino.