The catching?

[Spitball]

Not behind the plate, I don't. I've been calling for him to move to 1B this offseason if we can't sign Napoli.

 

I wouldn't want him as a full-time first baseman. I would want more than a .742 OPSer there.

 

He is a much better hitter left handed so he could be a platoon with Napoli at first and Lavarnway at catcher. I wouldn't want him to take too many at bats away from either but to complement the line-up versus right handed pitchers. He might catch once or twice a week and spell Napoli or Gomez once or twice.

[Lucienbel]

His stance and reception cause strikes to be called balls, and his arm causes fat first basemen to steal third.

 

This. I don't see him as the guy we want behind the plate at all and he certainly isn't helping an already struggling pitching staff. I was also hoping that we would see him traded, but that doesn't seem to be happening.

 

Hopefully Lavranway will start hitting well and force this team to have to do something.

[wyo-sox]

I will step up and be the one guy you can all laugh at. I do not think Salty is as bad as everyone on here thinks. I do not think he is all that good but I think it is unfair to blame our pitchers performance on him.

 

I can't stand it when people compare his 2011 averages to Varitech. I mean look at the difference in innings and who Jason exclusively caught for, while Salty caught for a knuckle baller that was terrible and Lackey.

 

Last year there were some pitchers that faired better with Shop, but nobody wants to point out the pitchers that pitched as well with either catcher. If he is such poison behind the plate somebody explain why some pitchers did fine with him?

 

I've heard this stuff about how he frames things that result in the umps calling strikes as balls. I have really tried to watch what he does and other catchers do and really could not see what he could be doing to confuse the umps.

 

I do not see anyone knocking on Cook or Dice Ks door because they were just a good catcher away from being really good starters. Did Bard have a real turn around in aaa away from Salty?

 

Our new skipper not only a pitching coach, but expert with this rotation..... if Salty is so much to blame....would he let Salty start the year behind the plate?

 

I am not saying he is great, but to me there are two equal sides to the coin. Could the way he holds his mit or whatever have a negative effect on trained experienced pro pitcher, sure..... but pitchers sucking inning after inning can easily make a decent pitcher look pretty bad.

 

.... and begin mocking, lol.

[onlybereaved]

I will step up and be the one guy you can all laugh at. I do not think Salty is as bad as everyone on here thinks. I do not think he is all that good but I think it is unfair to blame our pitchers performance on him.

 

I can't stand it when people compare his 2011 averages to Varitech. I mean look at the difference in innings and who Jason exclusively caught for, while Salty caught for a knuckle baller that was terrible and Lackey.

 

Last year there were some pitchers that faired better with Shop, but nobody wants to point out the pitchers that pitched as well with either catcher. If he is such poison behind the plate somebody explain why some pitchers did fine with him?

 

I've heard this stuff about how he frames things that result in the umps calling strikes as balls. I have really tried to watch what he does and other catchers do and really could not see what he could be doing to confuse the umps.

 

I do not see anyone knocking on Cook or Dice Ks door because they were just a good catcher away from being really good starters. Did Bard have a real turn around in aaa away from Salty?

 

Our new skipper not only a pitching coach, but expert with this rotation..... if Salty is so much to blame....would he let Salty start the year behind the plate?

 

I am not saying he is great, but to me there are two equal sides to the coin. Could the way he holds his mit or whatever have a negative effect on trained experienced pro pitcher, sure..... but pitchers sucking inning after inning can easily make a decent pitcher look pretty bad.

 

.... and begin mocking, lol.

 

no mocking - valid opinion - some good points

[jung]

Well, Farrell will not be left with a choice in the matter. He can't start Ross that often. He is not a front line catcher. Napoli if signed is his 1st baseman with a problem that can only be exacerbated by catching and Lavs will be in Pawtucket.

 

He will be stuck starting Salty.

 

As for what Salty does behind the plate.....he gives the worst targets I have ever seen...the absolute worst. You are right in that there are guys that frame as badly as he does, maybe not for the same reasons but as badly. However there are also guys that frame much better.

 

Salty does appear to get shaken off quite a bit...that does get frustrating for a pitcher after awhile. That said, without knowing the details of how a pitcher and catcher and pitching coach have planned to attack particular hitters, it is hard to definitively make a judgement there. However I can see how he sets targets and I can see how he frames and I have seen him shaken off a fair amount and have even seen pitchers start to stiffen their spins at some point....and even call him out to the mound.

 

His framing issues may be part and parcel of how he receives. He does tend to stab at the ball. It is kinda' difficult to frame and stab at the same time. Not only does he tend to stab....even when he avoids doing that, he does not hold the glove to a spot. You will see the better receivers actually able to receive the ball without being so concerned about whether they can fully get the pocket of the glove to the ball...hence they can hold the glove at a spot and receive the ball in the glove but will allow the glove to caress the ball to the pocket as opposed to insisting on catching it with the pocket. That takes a degree of suppleness to the glove hand that Salty simply does not seem to possess and I don't think he will develop it at this point. Of course if he set his targets where the pitcher would actually like to throw the ball he might have his glove in a better position to begin with.

 

I won't go into his defensive liabilities including how he handles poorly thrown baseballs as that is a whole post by itself but if the topic is Salty as a receiver in his roll as a battery mate to a pitcher, this is what I see.

[Lucienbel]

Not to speak for everyone, just stating my own point. I don't think Salty brings the pitching staff down all on his own. At the same time, I don't think that he's doing them any favors. A better catcher behind the plate with an already struggling pitching staff could certainly help support them, and that seems to be what Ross was brought in to do. I just think that with a solid catcher behind the plate these guys that need to rebound would at least have a little help.

[redsoxfan3]

s***, Lavs is more defensively ready than Salty. Once Napoli is signed, Salty will be shown the door. It'll be a 50/50 Ross/Lavs split until Lavs starts hitting.

 

I think that when we sign Napoli for sure, then we will hear more trade talk about Salty, unless the FO keeps Lavarnway in AAA. Napoli will be catching on occasion. The other time is split equally between Ross and Salty/Lavarnway. The longer the Napoli signing takes, I think the more likely we are to keep Salty. I think we still have around 6 or so weeks until pitchers and catchers report. We need to finalize Napoli's deal and trade for Saltt in that time.

[Bellhorn04]

I will step up and be the one guy you can all laugh at. I do not think Salty is as bad as everyone on here thinks. I do not think he is all that good but I think it is unfair to blame our pitchers performance on him.

 

I can't stand it when people compare his 2011 averages to Varitech. I mean look at the difference in innings and who Jason exclusively caught for, while Salty caught for a knuckle baller that was terrible and Lackey.

 

Last year there were some pitchers that faired better with Shop, but nobody wants to point out the pitchers that pitched as well with either catcher. If he is such poison behind the plate somebody explain why some pitchers did fine with him?

 

I've heard this stuff about how he frames things that result in the umps calling strikes as balls. I have really tried to watch what he does and other catchers do and really could not see what he could be doing to confuse the umps.

 

It's true that you shouldn't just use the conglomerated CERA numbers of Salty vs. Varitek or Shoppach, you have to break it down by each pitcher.

 

But consider Lester and Buch for 2012:

 

Lester with Shoppach 3.70 48.2 innings

Lester with Salty 5.62 107.1 innings

 

Buch with Shoppach 3.23 78 innings

Buch with Salty 6.30 75.2 innings

 

As to the whys and wherefores of the problems with Salty, there are a lot of varying opinions on this. There was a report last year that the Red Sox brass did a sort of survey of the players on why the team's W-L record was so bad with Salty catching, and nobody seemed to have any clear ideas.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that all it takes is one or two pitches per game to have a huge effect on things. One pitch that goes the wrong way can result in multiple runs.

 

Another consideration is that Salty's performance might vary from game to game, inning to inning. Maybe he just loses focus sometimes.

 

Also, maybe the pitchers are aware of all these numbers and have less confidence when throwing to Salty.

 

There are a lot of possibilities, but in my opinion, the numbers over two years add up to Salty being a significant problem.

[jung]

Part of the problem with Napoli's hip is that he likely cannot take as much of the load as initially thought and Ross is not a spring chicken. He is a fine defensive catcher. However I suspect that Ross would have trouble fully sharing the catching duties. I can see Ross catching when the opponent is starting a LH starter, when the Sox are playing a double header and when there is a day game following a night game. But that puts Salty out there for a good many catching assignments.

 

Ross has not caught over 60 games since 2007. Between 50 and 60 is probably just about what I described above would get him. Maybe Napoli gets 10 or 20, MAYBE and Salty gets the rest if he is here.

[wyo-sox]

It's true that you shouldn't just use the conglomerated CERA numbers of Salty vs. Varitek or Shoppach, you have to break it down by each pitcher.

 

But consider Lester and Buch for 2012:

 

Lester with Shoppach 3.70 48.2 innings

Lester with Salty 5.62 107.1 innings

 

Buch with Shoppach 3.23 78 innings

Buch with Salty 6.30 75.2 innings

 

As to the whys and wherefores of the problems with Salty, there are a lot of varying opinions on this. There was a report last year that the Red Sox brass did a sort of survey of the players on why the team's W-L record was so bad with Salty catching, and nobody seemed to have any clear ideas.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that all it takes is one or two pitches per game to have a huge effect on things. One pitch that goes the wrong way can result in multiple runs.

 

Another consideration is that Salty's performance might vary from game to game, inning to inning. Maybe he just loses focus sometimes.

 

Also, maybe the pitchers are aware of all these numbers and have less confidence when throwing to Salty.

 

There are a lot of possibilities, but in my opinion, the numbers over two years add up to Salty being a significant problem.

 

why not put up the numbers for all the starters and relievers that pitched to both catchers?

[Bellhorn04]

why not put up the numbers for all the starters and relievers that pitched to both catchers?

 

Sorry, I just don't have the time or energy right now to do that.

[BSN07]

why not put up the numbers for all the starters and relievers that pitched to both catchers?

 

I looked briefly a while back. It's lot of the same. I was ok with Salty, but when I looked into it there is something to pitchers and their ERA ballooning throwing to him.

[wyo-sox]

I looked briefly a while back. It's lot of the same. I was ok with Salty, but when I looked into it there is something to pitchers and their ERA ballooning throwing to him.

 

I had a real hard time finding numbers today. I remember looking at them in season and seem to remember some starters had little to no change and the relievers over all pitched really well to Salty.

 

But to me there are way to many variables to much stock in comparing catchers era's . To say that Shop provided better results for Lester..... wouldn't we have to know the team batting averages Shop caught compared to what Salty caught? Did salty catch Buch right before and after his injury hiatus? Did Salty catch Lester in the one game that was horrible beyond any average and how bad could that one game skew the numbers..... and isn't the odds of catching a pitcher on a really bad inflated the more you catch?

 

I would love to see better catcher than Salty. I am by no means thinking he is great...... but I also will admit I am one of the more baseball ignorant folks on here and just have to trust what my eyes tell me. My eyes saw it was all about our starters sucking.

[Palodios]

It's true that you shouldn't just use the conglomerated CERA numbers of Salty vs. Varitek or Shoppach, you have to break it down by each pitcher.

 

But consider Lester and Buch for 2012:

 

Lester with Shoppach 3.70 48.2 innings

Lester with Salty 5.62 107.1 innings

 

Buch with Shoppach 3.23 78 innings

Buch with Salty 6.30 75.2 innings

 

Bellhorn, did you find these numbers somewhere, or did you have to do the math? I hadn't been able to find them on my own, and simply relied on team CERA, but these numbers are staggering.

 

Saltalamacchia has no place on this team any longer. He is a one-tool player, and needs to be traded or DFAed.

[a700hitter]

Bellhorn, did you find these numbers somewhere, or did you have to do the math? I hadn't been able to find them on my own, and simply relied on team CERA, but these numbers are staggering.

 

Saltalamacchia has no place on this team any longer. He is one tall player, and needs to be traded or DFAed.

I made the appropriate correction in bold.

[jung]

To be honest, parts of this catching thread reminds of the way a number of the threads are going this offseason which is similar to the way many went last offseason.

 

One of the issues that some appear unwilling to deal with is the very real possibility that Salty is our catcher. As we get closer and closer to pitchers and catchers reporting we generally don't like seeing Salty trotted out there again and with very good reason. I don't have to depend on CERA. I have eyes. I can see what Salty is doing out there.

 

But as much as we might not like seeing him trotted out there, you can't just say "they will start Ross". As I posted above, it has been ions since Ross has caught even as many as 60 games in a season. Napoli even if signed is a bat they cannot afford to be without. One thing I have not seen any comments on but that I think is really quite true is that this team is thin thin thin. Injuries anywhere will likely turn it from a 3rd place team to a last place team. Lose Ortiz.....see ya'. Catch Napoli to many games, wear down that hip and lose him....how are you going to replace that bat? So anybody that wants to rate the Sox higher than 3rd has got to deal with the fact that you take Ortiz and his achilles out of this lineup and you are toast! Probably taking Napoli out and you are pretty darned close to toast.

 

So since I think chances are slim to none that the Sox will start the season with Lavs up here....we get Salty again and neither Ross nor Napoli for that matter will change that IMO.

[wyo-sox]

Jung,why can't Ross be the primary catcher? Are you saying it's an age thing? Conditioning thing? Or are you saying the reason he has never started much is because he has never really been that good? Always enjoyed your analysis and was not 100% clear on our thoughts here.

[Spitball]

Ross actually hasn't started more than 47 games since 2007. He caught a five year high of 421.2 innings last year because of injuries to McCann. He will be 37 years-old when the 2013 season starts. I believe he was signed for his clubhouse/dugout leadership presence as much as his catching abilities. The same can be said for Gomes.

[jung]

Ross is a perennial backup catcher. In all of his years he has only been given the nod as the 1 one time, by the Reds in I think the 2007 season. He promptly pulled an Iggy, 0 for forever and that was the end of his stint as anybody's number 1 catcher. He simply cannot hit good enough to be able to crack a lineup as a 1. If they had any thoughts of Ross as a 1 then they should absolutely and without doubt off Salty and bring up Lavs and make him the 1 which they very likely will not do either.

 

I don't mean to imply that Ross is a perennial Iggy but he just can't hit his way out of a paper bag for the most part and is getting up there in years. We already know how the Sox handle all glove no hit players. Does not matter whether it is right or wrong, it is the Red Sox. He is however the consummate #2 catcher. Works well with the pitchers...covers all the detail work that a defensive 2 is supposed to cover, good behind the plate. Splits are not terrible but not great either and that is in very limited action. His splits are hideous in any year where he gets enough at bats to matter. Not a guy that this Sox team could afford to have in the lineup every day. This team will either need Lavs or Salty in its lineup. Even K machine Salty has some pop. Plus in all likelihood Ross would not hold up if you had him in there for 100+ games. He has not done it since 2006 or 2007 and that was the only year he did. Every other year since, 60 has been his high water mark.

 

But this is part of the problem you have when you are only sort of into a bridge year. They spent all this money...got very little team for it...and in all likelihood when a decision like Salty vs Lavs comes up, where so many teams would just bite the bullet and bring up Lavs, carbuncles and all, IMO it is so foreign to the Sox that they would prefer a walk across hot coals.

[Bellhorn04]

Bellhorn, did you find these numbers somewhere, or did you have to do the math? I hadn't been able to find them on my own, and simply relied on team CERA, but these numbers are staggering.

 

Baseball-Reference pitcher splits, toward the end. You can get these for the pitcher's career as well. Here's the link to the 2012 splits for Buchholz.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=buchhcl01&year=2012&t=p

 

Also noted that Buch had a solid 3.79 ERA with Lavarnway catching.

[mvp 78]

Also noted that Buch had a solid 3.79 ERA with Lavarnway catching.

Not surprising as he struggled mightily at the beginning of the season. Lavs

wasn't called up until after Buch turned his season around.

[wyo-sox]

Yes Lester and Buch had better era's with Shop. The others.....

 

(Shop first then Salty)

Cook 3.6 / 5.2

Doubront . 4.18 / 4.95

Beckett 5.46 / 4.47 (almost identical innings)

Dice K . 7.20 / 5.93

Morales 4.91 / 2.96

 

Thank you.

[Bellhorn04]

Yes Lester and Buch had better era's with Shop. The others.....

 

(Shop first then Salty)

Cook 3.6 / 5.2

Doubront . 4.18 / 4.95

Beckett 5.46 / 4.47 (almost identical innings)

Dice K . 7.20 / 5.93

Morales 4.91 / 2.96

 

Thank you.

 

You're right, you have to do this exercise with each pitcher and when you do you see a lot of variances.

 

But as with many other baseball stats, at the end of the year you have averages which are the bottom line number.

 

The difference between Salty's average and the Varitek/Shoppach average, plus the difference in W-L records, over 2 full seasons now, is so gigantic that can't be explained away.

[wyo-sox]

You're right, you have to do this exercise with each pitcher and when you do you see a lot of variances.

 

But as with many other baseball stats, at the end of the year you have averages which are the bottom line number.

 

The difference between Salty's average and the Varitek/Shoppach average, plus the difference in W-L records, over 2 full seasons now, is so gigantic that can't be explained away.

 

So you don't think Varitek basically exclusively catching Beckett on one of Becketts good years while Salty caught everyone else in 2011, including over the hill Wakefield and injured Lackey, explains a good portion of difference? Or how about the fact that Salty caught all of 2012, even after injuries and "the trade" really made it a much weaker team, and Shop was not part of the team for all that?

 

Look, I already stated I think Salty is not great.....and I said comparing catches with these numbers is not fair as there are way to many variables..... even more unfair when Shop / Tek haven't caught near the innings Salty did. But if you did, clearly, as many pitchers did as good or better with Salty era wise as pitchers that had worse era's with him.

 

It just seems out of character for so many posters here to only look at two pitchers era and make such generalized conclusions. Seems like Salty becomes the fall guy a bit.

[Lucienbel]

This is a difficult thing to judge. I feel the only way to really judge this would be looking at Salty v. This or that other catcher when: A. It was the same season. B. There was a comparable number of innings. In which case statistically speaking it seems the Beckett with Shoppach and Salty comparison works best. Even then, that really shouldn't mean a whole lot because that's far too small a sample.

 

I don't know if there's a real good way to use numbers here and get a fair comparison. I think most here would agree that he isn't helping any though, based on what we've seen.

 

At the same time, I think that just getting rid of him would solve most of the problem is very wishful thinking.

[wyo-sox]

This is a difficult thing to judge. I feel the only way to really judge this would be looking at Salty v. This or that other catcher when: A. It was the same season. B. There was a comparable number of innings. In which case statistically speaking it seems the Beckett with Shoppach and Salty comparison works best. Even then, that really shouldn't mean a whole lot because that's far too small a sample.

 

I don't know if there's a real good way to use numbers here and get a fair comparison. I think most here would agree that he isn't helping any though, based on what we've seen.

 

At the same time, I think that just getting rid of him would solve most of the problem is very wishful thinking.

 

agreed

[jung]

Hopefully the Sox will smarten him up and pack Salty off to some team looking for a "catcher". If not we will see more of what we saw last year....remembering that the way Salty gives Targets, frames pitches, just plain receives the ball is just the tip of the iceberg with Salty.

 

We have those memorable occasions when he actually forgets to cover home. We have those two games in a row that he lost by simply being unable to make a play on a ball thrown in to home plate last year...could not even catch the damned thing....never mind make a tag. There are so many reasons to off Salty that you could have a tread just on that topic.

 

Focusing on one of them like how he handles the pitchers misses the point. My first post in this thread stated that Salty IMO represents the worst combination of defense and handling battery mate duties of any front line catcher in MLB and that is why the Sox should off him. What the hell do they think they are losing, offing Salty and catching Lavs?

[Dojji]

Hopefully the Sox will smarten him up and pack Salty off to some team looking for a "catcher". If not we will see more of what we saw last year....remembering that the way Salty gives Targets, frames pitches, just plain receives the ball is just the tip of the iceberg with Salty.

 

We have those memorable occasions when he actually forgets to cover home. We have those two games in a row that he lost by simply being unable to make a play on a ball thrown in to home plate last year...could not even catch the damned thing....never mind make a tag. There are so many reasons to off Salty that you could have a tread just on that topic.

 

Every single one of these things happened to Jason Varitek at least a few times in his career. The difference is that Tek is a "great catcher" so we shrug them off in a well-crap-happens kind of way. Because Salty is a "terrible catcher" his mistakes get remembered and itemized.

 

This is one of the reasons that I tend to make an ass of myself sometimes bucking the groupthink. Because if I don't, it just gets completely unbalanced and tends to snowball quickly to completely unfair proportions. Not that it really does any good, since if there's any sport where people re set in their ways it's baseball, and if there's any region set in its ways, it's New England, so I've always got two strikes against me, but I'd feel like dirt if I didn't at least try.

 

Focusing on one of them like how he handles the pitchers misses the point. My first post in this thread stated that Salty IMO represents the worst combination of defense and handling battery mate duties of any front line catcher in MLB and that is why the Sox should off him. What the hell do they think they are losing, offing Salty and catching Lavs?

 

20 hr's springs to mind pretty quickly as something they'd lose. As Ryan Kalish taught us, there's never anything guaranteed about prospects. I was sure he'd be hitting 20 Hr's himself for us by now.

[wyo-sox]

The good news is that Salty and Lester have had some success in the past. Salty Lester 2011 era was 3.77. Whoever's fault 2012 was, let's hope they can get back to their 2011 performance.

[wyo-sox]

Hopefully the Sox will smarten him up and pack Salty off to some team looking for a "catcher". If not we will see more of what we saw last year....remembering that the way Salty gives Targets, frames pitches, just plain receives the ball is just the tip of the iceberg with Salty.

 

We have those memorable occasions when he actually forgets to cover home. We have those two games in a row that he lost by simply being unable to make a play on a ball thrown in to home plate last year...could not even catch the damned thing....never mind make a tag. There are so many reasons to off Salty that you could have a tread just on that topic.

 

Focusing on one of them like how he handles the pitchers misses the point. My first post in this thread stated that Salty IMO represents the worst combination of defense and handling battery mate duties of any front line catcher in MLB and that is why the Sox should off him. What the hell do they think they are losing, offing Salty and catching Lavs?

 

I do not take issue with your complaints on Salty. You understand baseball better then I do. I just can't stand the stat picking with a couple pitchers without looking at all of them and looking at other factors.