Rotation

[jung]

I wish Bard was showing progress at least by the end of last season but in truth it did not look like he had found a thing by that point...could barely find the plate...ambulances still standing by to cart off hitters. Occasionally would nurse the ball over the plate to finally get a strike and generally saw it wiz past his head coming the other way.

 

Have to see how he pitches this spring but there is just as great a chance that he is just done as there is that he contributes anything in 2013.

[a700hitter]

I wish Bard was showing progress at least by the end of last season but in truth it did not look like he had found a thing by that point...could barely find the plate...ambulances still standing by to cart off hitters. Occasionally would nurse the ball over the plate to finally get a strike and generally saw it wiz past his head coming the other way.

 

Have to see how he pitches this spring but there is just as great a chance that he is just done as there is that he contributes anything in 2013.

His velocity was down around 5 mph. That was the most concerning thing. He was a 1 inning reliever for the lat 3 months of the season and never regained his velocity. Very concerning. He was a danger to batters, because he had no idea where the ball was going. If I was the opposing manager, I would have hit the first 2 Sox batters after Bard pitched to send Bobby V the message that it was irresponsible to send Bard to the Mound. He almost killed Encarnacion twice last year. He was very lucky that he got his head out of the way. It's possible that he recovers his command, but can he recover the lost 5 mph?

[BSN07]

How many of his outings did you see when he came back to the big club? Did you see any of his outings at Pawtucket?

 

We have seen guys have issues bouncing from RP to SP to RP before. Yes there is a chance he never comes back. But I think there is a chance he does. I'm just not ready to completely give up.

 

I also think they should sign a guy like Wilson who should be ready by mid season. There really isn't any sure shut down late inning guy right now. But Bard, Wilson, Bailey, Morales(if he's not SP I think he make a good late inning flame thrower) isn't bad. Full of ? but sometimes that's just the way BP's are. I would say maybe they get Soriano, but that avenue has multiple issues.

[a700hitter]

We have seen guys have issues bouncing from RP to SP to RP before. Yes there is a chance he never comes back. But I think there is a chance he does. I'm just not ready to completely give up.

 

I also think they should sign a guy like Wilson who should be ready by mid season. There really isn't any sure shut down late inning guy right now. But Bard, Wilson, Bailey, Morales(if he's not SP I think he make a good late inning flame thrower) isn't bad. Full of ? but sometimes that's just the way BP's are. I would say maybe they get Soriano, but that avenue has multiple issues.

How many of Bard's outings did you see after he came back up?

[jung]

The point is not whether to give up on Bard or not. People are penciling him in as part of the pen and that makes as little sense as giving up on him. He was awful in Pawtucket...awful up here....just plain awful as he neither had command nor velocity.

 

On top of that by the end he just looked defeated...almost looked like he was afraid to throw the ball. He may come back but I would at this not be penciling him into anything but continued recover project. The Sox would probably count themselves lucky if opposing managers did not start to bean Sox hitters just seeing Bard sitting out in the bull pen.

[BSN07]

How many of Bard's outings did you see after he came back up?

 

A lot of them. And he was terrible. But I'm chalking that up to the yo yo ride he went on last season. Like I said I think an off season to reset mentally and physically could go a long ways for him. I don't think he's turned in to Rick Ankiel

[a700hitter]

A lot of them. And he was terrible. But I'm chalking that up to the yo yo ride he went on last season. Like I said I think an off season to reset mentally and physically could go a long ways for him. I don't think he's turned in to Rick Ankiel

In 3 months as a reliever, he had almost no clean outings and he was never dominant. What makes you think he will get his velocity back?

[a700hitter]

The point is not whether to give up on Bard or not. People are penciling him in as part of the pen and that makes as little sense as giving up on him. He was awful in Pawtucket...awful up here....just plain awful as he neither had command nor velocity.

 

On top of that by the end he just looked defeated...almost looked like he was afraid to throw the ball. He may come back but I would at this not be penciling him into anything but continued recover project. The Sox would probably count themselves lucky if opposing managers did not start to bean Sox hitters just seeing Bard sitting out in the bull pen.

It was painfully pathetic to watch him. I felt sorry for the guy. He gets an invite to Spring training to prove himself, but they need to conduct the off season as if he doesn't exist.

[SoxSport]

With Bard, a case of mismanagement. The guy had a history of head problems as a starter, and they just resurrected his problems.

[Lucienbel]

His velocity was down around 5 mph. That was the most concerning thing. He was a 1 inning reliever for the lat 3 months of the season and never regained his velocity. Very concerning. He was a danger to batters, because he had no idea where the ball was going. If I was the opposing manager, I would have hit the first 2 Sox batters after Bard pitched to send Bobby V the message that it was irresponsible to send Bard to the Mound. He almost killed Encarnacion twice last year. He was very lucky that he got his head out of the way. It's possible that he recovers his command, but can he recover the lost 5 mph?

 

Hit the nail on the head here. This was probably one of the worst moves the Sox made last year (well, worst move still effecting them in the long term). They had a guy that probably could have had an opportunity to close last year or this year, and completely screwed him up. It seems like Cherington/whoever had the idea of starting Bard was probably kicking themselves in the nads after Bailey went down. Especially once Bard's starts began going downhill faster than anyone could fix.

[kapsis21]

Hit the nail on the head here. This was probably one of the worst moves the Sox made last year (well, worst move still effecting them in the long term). They had a guy that probably could have had an opportunity to close last year or this year, and completely screwed him up. It seems like Cherington/whoever had the idea of starting Bard was probably kicking themselves in the nads after Bailey went down. Especially once Bard's starts began going downhill faster than anyone could fix.

 

people here still argued that Bard wanted to be a starter so he could make more money.. that was ridiculous

[Station 13]

His velocity was down around 5 mph. That was the most concerning thing. He was a 1 inning reliever for the lat 3 months of the season and never regained his velocity. Very concerning. He was a danger to batters, because he had no idea where the ball was going. If I was the opposing manager, I would have hit the first 2 Sox batters after Bard pitched to send Bobby V the message that it was irresponsible to send Bard to the Mound. He almost killed Encarnacion twice last year. He was very lucky that he got his head out of the way. It's possible that he recovers his command, but can he recover the lost 5 mph?

 

His problem was pitching with a windup and going back to the stretch and forth. He had no consistent release point. I think he is salvageable.

[a700hitter]

His problem was pitching with a windup and going back to the stretch and forth. He had no consistent release point. I think he is salvageable.

When he went back to the bullpen, he was pitching solely out of the stretch. He was in the bullpen for the last 3 months of the season, but there was no progress.

[BSN07]

When he went back to the bullpen, he was pitching solely out of the stretch. He was in the bullpen for the last 3 months of the season, but there was no progress.

 

He might have just been mentally beat. i think we see a different Bard in ST. Well I hope so at least

[Station 13]

When he went back to the bullpen, he was pitching solely out of the stretch. He was in the bullpen for the last 3 months of the season, but there was no progress.

 

He needed a reset and they didn't give him that, one of the many annoying things on the list. Also wasting Tazawa with 45 innings pitch for AAA.

 

When a starter or a player isn't right, he is usually shut down. They didn't give Bard that chance. Might prove be huge mistake if by spring he needs TJS.

[jung]

I know those poor innocent players are just pawns in the hands of those swarthy snake Management scums. Bard has had as many periods in his career when he could not hit the barn door with a base fiddle as times when he could. Starters make buckets more money than middle relievers and set up men and they make more money than closers. Closers make more money than middle relievers and set up man but less than starters. The "elite set up man" is a contrived term and a means to pump salaries further.

 

I do think that both the Sox and Bard mutually decided that he was not well suited to closing. If he was, they would have kept him on that path and he would have been glad to have stayed on it. The problem if there is one is that Bard appeared to have loads of talent that nobody including himself had been able to unlock. So he took his shot at the brass ring....ML starting pitcher. I don't believe the Sox really understood how much support Bard was going to need once all parties were committed to that path. I don't think he received anything like the support he needed. Maybe there was no way to give him that kinda' support at the ML level. In truth he probably needed to step down one level and try to work it out at AAA instead of being inserted directly into a ML rotation. However I don't think he would have succeeded. He just would not have failed so visibly and so spectacularly.

 

At least Bard no longer has to be conflicted about what he is and what he is not. He will likely have to be satisfied with a career as a middle reliever or a set up man if he can come back. Several times late in the season he looked so disjointed that you would swear his body was going to blow apart as he released the baseball.

 

I don't think we will ever see him pitch out of the full wind up again. While it sounds terribly simplistic I know, one thing they apparently all agreed to do as part of his foray into starting was go back to a full wind up pitch with nobody on base. I actually think in hindsight that was eventually his undoing. He did go back to just pitching from the stretch at the end but I think the damage was done by then.

 

I think that when the final book does close on Bard he will have turned out to be a one pitch pitcher. He simply does not appear to be able to handle any variety. Can't pitch from the wind up and the stretch. Can't throw multiple pitches both from the wind up and the stretch. Was ill prepared for the rigors of starting in the sense of having to pace yourself over innings and through lineups two and three times. By the same token, I don't believe either he or the Sox felt he would bear up under the pressure of closing.

 

If you want to blame somebody...blame everybody including Bard himself and baseball generally for not being willing to address guys like Bard honestly. The system of baseball is what it is and sometimes it is going to take a guy like Bard and just grind him up.

[Palodios]

The Red Sox can't afford to give long contracts to guys like Jackson/Lohse/Dempster who will fail hard in the AL East. The number of available starting pitching has significantly dried up already. The list gets longer every day:

 

Burhle,

Josh Johnson,

Guthrie,

Ervin Santana,

Hanson,

Haren

Kuroda,

Peavy

Baker,

Pettite

Worley

Blanton

Mccarthy

 

 

 

The pitching situation has gone very poorly. Most of the reasonably priced pitchers have already come off the board.

[reYoukilis]

I think that when the final book does close on Bard he will have turned out to be a one pitch pitcher. He simply does not appear to be able to handle any variety. Can't pitch from the wind up and the stretch. Can't throw multiple pitches both from the wind up and the stretch. Was ill prepared for the rigors of starting in the sense of having to pace yourself over innings and through lineups two and three times. By the same token, I don't believe either he or the Sox felt he would bear up under the pressure of closing.

 

I never was a fan of Bard even when people were praising him. I remember him being a crucial part of the Red Sox collapse the season before last. If all you throw is 100 mph, eventually batters will catch up and it seemed thats how they hit off him after he walked a whole bunch of people.

 

Im not Cherington bashing, I like his moves so far this offseason, but it is telling that after Papelbon went to Phillies, the supposed closer to follow all of a sudden becomes a starting pitcher and bombs miserably.

 

EDIT - Ooops, I just caught your last sentence where it says, "By the same token, I don't believe either he or the Sox felt he would bear up under the pressure of closing". So if thats the case they shouldve left him where he was. Hind sight always 20/20.

[a700hitter]

The pitching situation has gone very poorly. Most of the reasonably priced pitchers have already come off the board.

A long list of pitchers have changed uniforms. If they fail to address this need again, we wil be in for another horrible season, regardless of whether we snag Hamilton.

[dupree]

A long list of pitchers have changed uniforms. If they fail to address this need again, we wil be in for another horrible season, regardless of whether we snag Hamilton.

 

I thought they would have signed McCarthy... I wouldnt put all my eggs in one basket and hope for a blockbuster trade for a legit #1 or #2 pitcher. Now with McCarthy in AZ do you think they will trade either Bauer or Cahill?

 

i would love to see either one pitching for the red sox next season.

[RedSoxNC84]

Starting to think that Cherington might drop the "We feel pretty good about our rotation as it stands" line soon......

[a700hitter]

Starting to think that Cherington might drop the "We feel pretty good about our rotation as it stands" line soon......

Yep, I can see that one coming. Well, if that ends up being the case, I had better get tickets for opening day, because that will be the highlight of our season.

[RedSoxNC84]

I'm just glad they didn't end up signing Dempster (yet)

 

I really hope there is still a trade in the works for an arm, or they have some sort of plan that makes sense, and doesn't involve standing pat.

[BSN07]

Starting to think that Cherington might drop the "We feel pretty good about our rotation as it stands" line soon......

 

Didn't he say the expect better things from the current group last week or something

[reYoukilis]

Didn't he say the expect better things from the current group last week or something

 

I dont understand that thinking, seeing that Beckett is not a part of it anymore. We need someone at least to take his place.

[Bellhorn04]

I dont understand that thinking, seeing that Beckett is not a part of it anymore. We need someone at least to take his place.

 

We've already got him - Lackey.

[Behindenemylines]

As of now and looking at the 40 man roster the staff is (no certain order):

 

Lester

Buchholtz

Doubront

Lackey

Morales (Have said that they will stretch him out in the spring in case he is needed)

 

Don't know if that is a rotation that will be able to compete for playoff spot?

[jacksonianmarch]

It isnt one that gives you a high probability of making the playoffs

[BSN07]

They way it is they would have to hit on almost every pitcher there having a good year. That's not impossible but like Jacko said doesn't carry high probability.

 

I don't think they go into ST not adding to that group in some way or another. We will just have to wait and see.

[jacksonianmarch]

They don't need aces. Nobody really does. You need guys who are durable who can pitch to an ERA at or slightly below 4. A guy like Dempster fits the bill. A guy like Lohse is so up and down that he'd be a bigger gamble. Sanchez is a lock if healthy. You need 2, IMO, to turn it around. You already have guys with promise in Buchholz and Lester. You can fill in 2 more holes with reliable guys in the FA arena and give Doubront and Lackey an open audition for the 5 spot in ST