Time for Valentine to go

[Dojji]

I don't think the percentages were stacked one way or the other. The speed could have caused some havoc. They may not have let Crawford take the base uncontested. They might have decoyed throwing through but had Jeter run in for the throw and try to get Ells at the plate. The DP percentage with Gonzo were probably higher than with Ross. The HR percentage was probably in Gonzo's favor because of the short RF porch. I don't think the percentages were greatly stacked one way or the other. If Salty or Punto was up behind Gonzo' date=' you keep the runners anchored, but in this situation I run them.[/quote']

You realize that you're effectively conceding that it was, at worst, a judgment call on a 50-50 situation where V happened to pick the wrong move.

 

And that's at worst.

 

Surely there's something more significant to criticize Valentine about.

[a700hitter]

You realize that you're effectively conceding that it was, at worst, a judgment call on a 50-50 situation where V happened to pick the wrong move.

 

And that's at worst.

 

Surely there's something more significant to criticize Valentine about.

I think when you have hit into 3 DPs in the first 5 innings, I try to stay out of another one with the slowest runner at bat. The criticism of Bobby V isn't this one instance. It's that he sits on his hands game after game. He really doesn't need team signs. He's very much like Terry with the lack of moves or plays.

[a700hitter]

Did anyone else like to see Bobby V and Beckett fired up last night? It showed me that they don't think this season is over and it showed how much that game meant to them last night. I thought I saw a little team chemistry last night and wouldn't be surprised if this team starts to kick it in gear.

They went back into the clubhouse where they shared some chicken and beer.

[Dojji]

I think when you have hit into 3 DPs in the first 5 innings' date=' I try to stay out of another one with the slowest runner at bat. The criticism of Bobby V isn't this one instance. It's that he sits on his hands game after game. He really doesn't need team signs. He's very much like Terry with the lack of moves or plays.[/quote']

 

So in other words you'd play to avoid making the mistake you made last.

 

That's not a very good way to play baseball. Or any other situation in which either choice entails roughly equal risk

 

Heck, doing things that way was Daisuke's major problem.

[SCM33]

Maureen Mullen ‏@MaureenaMullen

Lucchino just went into Bobbyv's office. Cherington was in there already. Medical staff had been in, too. #RedSoxTalk

[Bellhorn04]

Maureen Mullen ‏@MaureenaMullen

Lucchino just went into Bobbyv's office. Cherington was in there already. Medical staff had been in, too. #RedSoxTalk

 

Great, now I have to stay up to find out why.

[a700hitter]

Great' date=' now I have to stay up to find out why.[/quote']It could be about Sweeney punching the door and breaking his hand.

[SCM33]

Alex Speier ‏@alexspeier

One #redsox source said despite assembly of key org decision makers in Valentine's office, no Sox deals are imminent.

[a700hitter]

Wow, this was just reported, but it happened earlier in the year. I can't believe that the FO talked to Bobby V about this. No wonder he has been acting like an abused puppy this season. They have cut his balls off at every turn. It's a little hard to change a clubhouse culture, when the bosses make it clear that they don't have the managers back. How would these twits and wusses have dealt with a real tough manager like Dick Williams who would have said harsher stuff to his veterans and stars. Rookies were scared to death of Williams. The pansy owners need to get real baseball people in the FO and stay out of their business.

Valentine said during a recent radio interview that the front office spoke to him about a comment he made to Will Middlebrooks earlier this season.

 

The rookie made two errors in an inning and Valentine sarcastically said, “Nice game, kid.”

 

Middlebrooks laughed it off at the time and Valentine later spoke to him about learning from mistakes, and relayed a story about a game in his career in which he committed three errors.

 

An unnamed person heard Valentine’s original comment and reported it to the front office. Valentine then had to explain.

 

“It’s the most stupid thing that I ever said on the radio program,” Valentine said. “It also was ridiculous for someone to repeat it .*.*. Somebody overheard it and decided that it was a very dreadful thing for a manager to ever say to a young player, and decided to repeat it a few times.”

 

Valentine said that he didn’t think Middlebrooks was “mortally wounded” by the comment.

 

Middlebrooks seemed befuddled by the contrived controversy.

 

“I don’t have any problem with Bobby at all,” he said. “It was just something funny.”

 

[SoxSport]

Wow' date=' this was just reported, but it happened earlier in the year. I can't believe that the FO talked to Bobby V about this. No wonder he has been acting like an abused puppy this season. They have cut his balls off at every turn. It's a little hard to change a clubhouse culture, when the bosses make it clear that they don't have the managers back. How would these twits and wusses have dealt with a real tough manager like Dick Williams who would have said harsher stuff to his veterans and stars. Rookies were scared to death of Williams. The pansy owners need to get real baseball people in the FO and stay out of their business.[/quote']

 

Looks like the pro-Tito holdovers are undermining V:

 

http://bostonherald.com/sports/baseball/red_sox/view.bg?articleid=1061150690&position=0

 

The team can't win under those circumstances.

 

It's an example of the lack of leadership at the top of this organization to allow things to get out of control. The real culprit is Henry, who is too busy having babies and watching soccer to see that his Red Sox are imploding.

 

The one resolution to this matter is to move Lucchino back to what he was doing before, and hire a guy with clout and experience to run the team--John Hart, for example--and have him come in and clean house.

[a700hitter]

Looks like the pro-Tito holdovers are undermining V:

 

http://bostonherald.com/sports/baseball/red_sox/view.bg?articleid=1061150690&position=0

 

The team can't win under those circumstances.

 

It's an example of the lack of leadership at the top of this organization to allow things to get out of control. The real culprit is Henry, who is too busy having babies and watching soccer to see that his Red Sox are imploding.

 

The one resolution to this matter is to move Lucchino back to what he was doing before, and hire a guy with clout and experience to run the team--John Hart, for example--and have him come in and clean house.

They set Valentine up to fail. They gave him the same team as last year less a few key parts. The only shot of winning would have been to change the lazy entitled culture, get these guys in shape and make them accountable. There's no way he could accomplish that with his hands tied behind his back.

[SoxSport]

They set Valentine up to fail. They gave him the same team as last year less a few key parts. The only shot of winning would have been to change the lazy entitled culture' date=' get these guys in shape and make them accountable. There's no way he could accomplish that with his hands tied behind his back.[/quote']

 

The mistake was not replacing the GM with somebody outside the organization. They replaced only the manager from outside. That is a recipe for the manager to fail. They also failed to replace the holdover coaches. It's difficult for a manager to operate in that environment. Some holdover players think they can go over his head--and they can.

 

It's a pretty clear picture now. Lucchino has a very serious organizational problem of his own creation. He needs a new GM--and probably a new manager. The atmosphere is too poisonous for the existing one.

[jung]

I think it will take roster moves as well to bring this Sox team back. I know I have been grinding on this one for a bit but it is such a mismatched bunch especially for a team playing 81 games in Fenway.

 

It has speed it can't use. It has little power left especially without Ortiz in a park that demands an offense with power. It's rotation lacks a leader, a true 1. It has almost no run prevention strong suits being weak on starting pitching and weak defensively in prime defensive positions like SS and Catcher. Although they may have their answer in Ciriaco at SS. I think it has been a long time since I saw a Sox team give the opponent so many extra outs to play with.

 

Then their coaching, FO and Upper Management seems to be in such disarray. Although that might be overblown by the crazy local media. They have so many problems on the field that even if they did not have problems elsewhere it is hard to see how this team would be a winner.

 

Maybe the single biggest problem that we can see from afar is that the focus of this ownership group is marketing the Sox brand. Generating revenue has got to be important for any MLB franchise. However you would expect more balance between maintaining the on field performance of the team and taking advantage of the value that has already been built into the brand. It is so so out of balance here.

 

V is not the right guy for this job. However that is not the same thing as saying V is the problem with this team or with this organization. I have never claimed to be a V guy but I think he is getting a really bad deal here. Regardless of not being a V guy I have some sympathy for the guy for the mess he has walked into here.

[jung]

Dave Magadan has come out today and publicly commented the same way some of us have about the Sox having poor approaches to their plate appearances. Apparently, he is just fed up with it.

 

I have to admit I am fed up with it as well. I even criticized Pedey a few nights ago for first pitch swinging at a pitch that was a really good pitch to hit which was wrong. Taking a pitch that is a really good pitch to hit makes no sense. A sign of my own frustration with how terrible they have become as a team with regard to their plate appearances.

 

I do think that since the Stamford study leads one to conclude that the first pitch in all cases is the worst pitch to swing at, I would want to know that even if a first pitch was in a really good spot, that they went to the plate focused on a pitch in that location. "If I get this pitch in this location, I am swinging at it." I think there first pitch performance is so bad because even when they get a really good pitch to hit in that situation, they are not focused on getting that pitch in that spot. As a consequence, they do not do much with it.

 

Brennan last night said something to the effect that the Sox looked like they were going to the plate with no idea what they wanted to do. I think the biggest problem they have is that they have built such solid books of ineptitude at the plate that pitchers are just pitching to their known weaknesses now. But in fact I should have also said more strongly that Brennan is also correct. The Sox hitters don't seem to go to the plate with a real idea what they want to accomplish against a particular pitcher. They don't seem to be going up there with a pitch they are looking for, willing to lay off if they don't get that pitch. Boy that is a bad bad combination. Hitters with no idea what they want to accomplish against a particular pitcher as they go to the plate and pitchers with really good books on what the hitters are going to do is a recipe for what we are getting for results.

 

I don't think Magadan has spoken out like this since he has been here so he must be really frustrated.

[kapsis21]

is it me or am i just tired about media romping up stories.. true or false.. but everything negative that could be said is coming out..

if they were playing a little better i doubt this stuff comes out so it goes hand in hand..

but for crying out loud, redsox has become a media whore.. someone has to stop the bleeding.

 

From chicken to thumb to golf to Youk, to V saying something and it goes directly to FO, and now this.

[jung]

The thing with WMB and what V said to him or didn't say or whatever is just ridiculous. I know the media has a function but this can't be it. It is things like this WMB/V thing that makes the media look ridiculous. They end up with no credibility at all and don't deserve any.

[redsoxfan3]

Whoever is talking in the clubhouse about Bobby V's comments and the whole beer and chicken ********, it needs to stop. We will probably never find out who the "snitch" is because reporters lose all credibility if they reveal their sources. Players need to keep their mouths shut about stuff going on in the clubhouse, it is that simple. We do not need to add more drama to the already filled drama queens that make up this team. Shut the f*** up, play baseball, win games, and make the playoffs. It is not that difficult. The talent is there. Just play baseball already. I am tired of this .500 ********. This team is so much better than that. Time to take a step in the right direction and take the next three from this worthless Twins team. It starts tonight. No more drama. Have fun and play the game.

[jung]

I do think it is OK for Magadan to come out and comment because he is just talking baseball and he must be beyond frustrated at this point. He may even feel like this is a reflection on him and he wants folks to know that he is trying to get these guys to change the way they are making plate appearances.

 

It is so bad now that I don't know how they work their way back.

 

AGons had stopped swinging at s*** and has been much better for at least a month or longer. Pedey is always pretty good in spite of my stupid comment from the other night. Ortiz is excellent and only rarely falls into periods where he is swinging at pitches he should stay away from. Ells is pretty good. Nava is good at it but does not have much talent to go with his patience and good plate appearances.

 

Crawford is terrible. Aviles is terrible. WMB is not right now that good at pitch selection and does not appear to have a complete idea what he wants to do when he goes to the plate. Kalish is about where WMB is at this point. Both are young. Sweeney is neither terrible or good at it. Ross is clearly looking for a particular pitch when he goes to the plate but for the life of me I don't understand why he swings at low outside s*** with less than two strikes as he cannot hit it worth a damn.

 

Salty is actually not that bad at selection but he does not have a very quick bat it seems. Does not seem to swing at that many bad pitches but swings through a ton of pitches. Shop is so-so.

 

Ciriaco does not appear to swing at that many bad pitches but I am not sure he is as yet looking for a particular pitch when he goes to the plate...another young guy that is probably groping a bit.

[wyo-sox]

If indeed a player went to the GM or ownership to report that they heard Bobby V. say something to Will about some defensive plays..... that player should have had his rear end kicked. What a great opportunity for ownership to make it clear to said player that Bobby is the manager... whoever the manager is going to be you need to treat him as such. Go do some batting practice instead of whinning to me about what one manager said to a grown mlb ball player. WE ARE A LAST PLACE TEAM, and you are concerned Bobby might hurt someone's feelings?????? Get the F! out of my office.

 

But instead it sounds like they pampered the snitch and had a talk to Bobby, WOW! I can't wait to here Bobby open up about the dysfuntcion here next year when he is gone, either gets fired or quits.... I'm sure one will happen.

[wyo-sox]

And you know what.... if a player reallly went and tattled on Bobby V. for a comment... he is a pussy. I rarely feel a swear word is appropriate and usually reflects poorly on the person using it. But at times there is simply nothing better to describe something....... and in this case this player is a huge pussy.

[jung]

I think the whole thing is just unbelievable....that a player went to upper management/ownership...that they had anything at all to say to V about it. Honest to God I am so sad and so depressed by this mess. Your sports teams are supposed to rescue you from the daily grind not depress you further.

[ibot2much]

If you have ever worked in an environment like this in which the "boss" fosters snitches, you would know that it is so detrimental to the morale of the group. Wyo-sox is right that the problem is the front office---Cherry or LL ---who listened to the crap rather than sending the "unnamed" person flying out the door. Of course that problem was evident when JP flapped his mouth about V and his now proven very true comments about Youk.

[wyo-sox]

If this really happened, and I say if because it seems so hard to believe, but if FO came to talk to Bobby about this I have no idea how he kept a straight face. I would have been laughing so hard as I started packing my boxes while they were talking to me. What a complete joke.

[jung]

While I have posted a bit about the Magadan comments and Sox plate appearances the other shoe that has dropped on this offense is the complete lack of power coming from anyplace when Ortiz is not in the lineup. Pedey has not hit for power this year. Agons has not. Ross has some pop but that only goes so far. WMB has some pop but all in all, for a team that really does need to hit with power especially in their ballpark their power numbers have been pretty bad.

 

It seemed a bit better up until opposing pitchers really started focusing on their various weaknesses and they just don't seem to get many pitches that they can drive anymore.

[Station 13]

Middlebrooks need to hit 5th or 4th. 124wRC+ hitter do not hit 7th where he can't do damage.

[rhfil]

Having been in a similar situation many years ago I agree with those who chided the player and management on this issue. The player should have been told by management that if he had an issue with the Valentine comment that he should have taken his issue up with Valentine and it should have ended there. Management should not be encouraging players to complain about Valentine behind his back and players need to learn that they will not be allowed to complain about him behind his back.

Management needs to protect the chain of command.

[jung]

It is scary as hell to me to think about where this can possibly all be going. I know it sounds like a "the sky is falling" post but my God the quality of their play combined with the never ending litany of whacky s*** from management, the front office. Honestly while not being a V guy, he has almost been stabile comparatively speaking.

 

I think this could be close to a real conflagration, especially if they go out there now and end up splitting with the woeful Twins. I just don't know how the lid stays on this thing.

[Designated Hater]

I do think it is OK for Magadan to come out and comment because he is just talking baseball and he must be beyond frustrated at this point. He may even feel like this is a reflection on him and he wants folks to know that he is trying to get these guys to change the way they are making plate appearances.

 

It is so bad now that I don't know how they work their way back.

 

AGons had stopped swinging at s*** and has been much better for at least a month or longer. Pedey is always pretty good in spite of my stupid comment from the other night. Ortiz is excellent and only rarely falls into periods where he is swinging at pitches he should stay away from. Ells is pretty good. Nava is good at it but does not have much talent to go with his patience and good plate appearances.

 

Crawford is terrible. Aviles is terrible. WMB is not right now that good at pitch selection and does not appear to have a complete idea what he wants to do when he goes to the plate. Kalish is about where WMB is at this point. Both are young. Sweeney is neither terrible or good at it. Ross is clearly looking for a particular pitch when he goes to the plate but for the life of me I don't understand why he swings at low outside s*** with less than two strikes as he cannot hit it worth a damn.

 

Salty is actually not that bad at selection but he does not have a very quick bat it seems. Does not seem to swing at that many bad pitches but swings through a ton of pitches. Shop is so-so.

 

Ciriaco does not appear to swing at that many bad pitches but I am not sure he is as yet looking for a particular pitch when he goes to the plate...another young guy that is probably groping a bit.

 

The fact of the matter is that Pedroia has been one of the WORST hitters in MLB since May 15 (if you weigh OPS heavily in your judgement which the Sox DO). Look for the article on Hardball Talk. I can't post the link.

 

Dave Magadan has always been an odd choice to me for a hitting coach, but I guess it's never the best hitters that are the best coaches. i don't think he's good OR bad. He's just there to help. It's not his fault, however, if this team doesn't know how to have good plate strategy. They got to the bigs for a reason and in the Sox system or evaluation process of free agents, this must have been something that was ALWAYS being looked at by Theo/Ben and company.

 

I don't blame the hitting so much for this s*** season. It's starting pitching.

[SoxSport]

Time to get rid of that Front Office, folks. They've lost a lot of guys --Epstein, Burns, Hoyer--and are left with a questionable lot. You might call them the leftovers nobody else wanted to promote.

 

The mistake Lucky made was hiring an outside manager, and leaving him at the mercy of a bunch of insiders. Epstein should have been replaced with an outsider. And none of this should have been done publically--putting them at the mercy of the media.

 

Another thing--Valentine is pretty stupid answering questions candidly about individual players during press conferences or radio shows. Tito was never that stupid.

[DocHolliday]

The fact of the matter is that Pedroia has been one of the WORST hitters in MLB since May 15 (if you weigh OPS heavily in your judgement which the Sox DO). Look for the article on Hardball Talk. I can't post the link.

 

Dave Magadan has always been an odd choice to me for a hitting coach, but I guess it's never the best hitters that are the best coaches. i don't think he's good OR bad. He's just there to help. It's not his fault, however, if this team doesn't know how to have good plate strategy. They got to the bigs for a reason and in the Sox system or evaluation process of free agents, this must have been something that was ALWAYS being looked at by Theo/Ben and company.

 

I don't blame the hitting so much for this s*** season. It's starting pitching.

 

I agree that its difficult to blame the hitting when the pitching has been so terrible throughout the year. But to me, there has not been a single aspect of this entire organization that has not absolutely failed this season.

 

Yes, the offense has been one of the best in the league in the runs scored category. But there have been times this year (as evident last night) where they have been absolutely absent. I'd love to look at not only their average runs scored per game, but the standard deviation of those runs scored.

 

The pitching we've hit on ad nauseum. Defense has been lacking in critical losses. Bobby was never given a serious chance to succeed by this team, but he hasn't helped his cause with the way he has handled the adversity.

 

I don't even want to get into the lack of accountability and leadership in the baseball ops and ownership realms - that's a 5 gallon can of worms itself.

 

Add to it the endless injuries and off the field drama and you have the daily update of digust we fans have had to endure for what is almost a full calendar year.