Why can't Red Sox aces get through an inning ?

[a700hitter]

Seems to me that while Beckett should go either during or after this season, the Sox must find a better catcher to catch the bulk of their games than Salty. That said in developing Lavs the way they have and in choosing Salty to be their guy, they seem to have institutionalized poor defensive play at catcher as a Sox mainstay now. Sure they have not had many great defensive catchers but now they seem to be simply not viewing defensive characteristics as meaningful in any sense for a catcher.

 

It is very hard for me to just accept that seeing pitching stats for starting pitchers fall off a cliff edge is all tied JUST to the annual trends going that way to begin with when this is so clearly the first year that Salty as been the guy behind the plate. Neither Lester or Beckett are likely to get back over 8 this year I think for a k/9.

 

I have not seen anything of Lavs this year. However I am beginning to think the Sox may just not be able to afford the added burden of Salty even this year.

The big 3 are taking the ball on their turns. They have not had any injuries causing any of them to miss extended periods of time. Lester's performance was down last year. Beckett pitched well in 2011. In 2011, Beckett was caught by Tek, and Lester was caught by Salty. This year beckett doesn't have a designated catcher. I do wonder how much of this has to do with Salty. All 3 guys have fallen off a cliff so suddenly and at the same time.

[MANNYHOF24]

The big 3 are taking the ball on their turns. They have not had any injuries causing any of them to miss extended periods of time. Lester's performance was down last year. Beckett pitched well in 2011. In 2011' date=' Beckett was caught by Tek, and Lester was caught by Salty. This year beckett doesn't have a designated catcher. I do wonder how much of this has to do with Salty. All 3 guys have fallen off a cliff so suddenly and at the same time.[/quote']

 

Once the full arsenal of hitters is back to tact, I think the Red Sox best option is to make Shoppach the full time catcher and see what happens. This pitching staff has been god awful under the guidance/lack therof from Salty.

[a700hitter]

Once the full arsenal of hitters is back to tact' date=' I think the Red Sox best option is to make Shoppach the full time catcher and see what happens. This pitching staff has been god awful under the guidance/lack therof from Salty.[/quote']I wonder if Tek is in shape.

[redsoxbeatz]

The big 3 are taking the ball on their turns. They have not had any injuries causing any of them to miss extended periods of time. Lester's performance was down last year. Beckett pitched well in 2011. In 2011' date=' Beckett was caught by Tek, and Lester was caught by Salty. This year beckett doesn't have a designated catcher. I do wonder how much of this has to do with Salty. All 3 guys have fallen off a cliff so suddenly and at the same time.[/quote']

 

Makes you wonder why the F Shoppach isn't catching more often?

 

Sure, Salty hits enormous bombs but he also goes on 2-29 streaks filled with 20 strikeouts.

[kapsis21]

He could rake in the NL Central I bet. Give him to the Pirates get us Cole + some.

 

but its Jon Lester. can we hold on to him hoping he can rebound next year....

i cant think of us giving him up. would be stupid.

 

I think karma is being a bitch after he spoke not too well about Tito.. he was the last one I thought would have said something negative for Tito.

[a700hitter]

Makes you wonder why the F Shoppach isn't catching more often?

 

Sure, Salty hits enormous bombs but he also goes on 2-29 streaks filled with 20 strikeouts.

Especially at Fenway where Shoppach can hook the ball to and over the Monster. I have read that Bobby V doesn't like him. We are a team full of divas and now we are managed by a diva. Tito was not a diva.

[a700hitter]

but its Jon Lester. can we hold on to him hoping he can rebound next year....

i cant think of us giving him up. would be stupid.

 

I think karma is being a bitch after he spoke not too well about Tito.. he was the last one I thought would have said something negative for Tito.

He's only 28. You hate to give up on a young big hard throwing lefty who doesn't have arm trouble. I think they need to see if he pitches better to Shoppach or someone other than Salty before they trade him.

[MANNYHOF24]

I wonder if Tek is in shape.

 

Honestly...

 

 

If you look at ERA breakdowns between Salty and Shopp:

 

Salty: 4.33 ERA

 

SHOP: 3.80 ERA

 

That is a difference of .53 runs a game, which obviously is a huge difference.

 

Let's look at last season:

 

Salty: 4.63 ERA

 

Varitek: 3.56

 

Now obviously Salty caught a majority of innings, and it helps Varitek that he mostly caught Josh Beckett, who was leading the leauge in ERA for a lot of the season.

 

I do think it is a valid point that the team pitches worse when Salty is in the game, especially the starting pitchers.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/saltaja01-field.shtml

[MANNYHOF24]

Especially at Fenway where Shoppach can hook the ball to and over the Monster. I have read that Bobby V doesn't like him. We are a team full of divas and now we are managed by a diva. Tito was not a diva.

 

Bobby V has been a f***ing terrible manager. I can't stand anything that he does, he is a smug prick that has no idea how to manage a group of professional athletes.

[a700hitter]

Honestly...

 

 

If you look at ERA breakdowns between Salty and Shopp:

 

Salty: 4.33 ERA

 

SHOP: 3.80 ERA

 

That is a difference of .53 runs a game, which obviously is a huge difference.

 

Let's look at last season:

 

Salty: 4.63 ERA

 

Varitek: 3.56

 

Now obviously Salty caught a majority of innings, and it helps Varitek that he mostly caught Josh Beckett, who was leading the leauge in ERA for a lot of the season.

 

I do think it is a valid point that the team pitches worse when Salty is in the game, especially the starting pitchers.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/saltaja01-field.shtml

It is startling that all of the top 3 start sucking all at the same time and no one has a sore arm. What are the chances that all 3 turn bad at the same time for a prolonged period? They are all still young guys. Lester and Buch should be in their primes.

[a700hitter]

Bobby V has been a f***ing terrible manager. I can't stand anything that he does' date=' he is a smug prick that has no idea how to manage a group of professional athletes.[/quote']I hate his lineups.

[jung]

Geez V can't afford not liking a player a players. This team is in chaos and is quickly getting to the point where they are just running out of games........win one....lose one....win one....lose one

[SemperFi Sox]

When's the last time we didn't allow a 1st inning run? God it's getting pathetic. Whatever our rotation is doing to warm up isn't working.

[MANNYHOF24]

I hate his lineups.

 

Batting Nava 3rd last night? How about putting Salty in the cleanup spot a few times, or batting 5th? It's crazy.

[jung]

When you pile up the things that are just wrong about this team that is what makes it difficult to see how they are actually going anyplace. They have failings in critical areas of concern. They have failings in areas not so critical.

 

I hope Sox Management does not end up convincing itself that this year is all about the injuries cause while you could also make a case that Sox conditioning and med staff changes have not had any meaningful positive result, the issues the Sox have go way past the injuries.

[wyo-sox]

I'm sorry, but Lester's pitching is on Lester..... not Bobby, not Salty.... its on him. He is not a 13 year old in little league, or even a rookie minor leaguer. He is a grown man with the tools, experience, and paycheck to be an ace. A real pro, a man with pride, an ace does not fold it in because of some words that come out of a managers mouth or because his catcher is young.

 

Maybe conditions or the catcher are not ideal.....tough. Almost any mlb pitcher can pitch great when all conditions are optimal. But like most things in life, conditions are rarely optimal. Great or even consistently good pitchers work and battle through bad conditions. Mr. Lester needs to get out done. If Salty does not know enough then do your own homework on the hitters and take fricking charge! You don't like your manager...... join the crowd, most of us making $50,000 or less a year don't like our bosses but get fired if we let that interfere with our performance. Don't bitch about umps, the media, your manager, your catcher....... be a pitcher!

[jung]

It would be pretty easy for me to hammer V because I was not a V guy from the start. However as much as I have not liked some of the things he has done, most of my wrath would without doubt be saved up for upper management and the players. Even BC does not bring out the worst in me. But I have little to no use for upper management and the more I see of the players, the less I like. Just hard for me to blame BC when in reality I think Theo and LL have much more to do with what this team of players is than BC ever thought of having.

 

It is a bad mix...a poorly constructed team that not only does not result in the whole being greater than the sum of its parts, but I actually think the whole is LESS than the sum of its parts.

[kapsis21]

He's only 28. You hate to give up on a young big hard throwing lefty who doesn't have arm trouble. I think they need to see if he pitches better to Shoppach or someone other than Salty before they trade him.

 

every pitcher goes thru this and Lester is just having a bad year or some trouble thats eating him up inside.

I have been saying this, looking at him he is not the same guy, he is missing that confidence or that smirkiness or that calmness he had before.

and pitching staff has to figure this out..

[SemperFi Sox]

every pitcher goes thru this and Lester is just having a bad year or some trouble thats eating him up inside.

I have been saying this, looking at him he is not the same guy, he is missing that confidence or that smirkiness or that calmness he had before.

and pitching staff has to figure this out..

 

They have been crap since September, this rotation's performance isn't a fluke.

[jung]

Pitchers should without doubt do their own homework and be prepared for their starts. Hard to imagine they are preparing well given their early innings performances.

 

But Lester is not a leader he is a follower. Every rotation needs a guy that the rest of the guys follow to some extent and the Sox just don't have one. That is one of the benefits of having a true 1. Like I said earlier I am tired of Lester's protestations of being a grown assed man. he does not act like a grown assed man in any aspect of how he carries himself and what he does. He is a grown assed follower.

 

He and the rest of the staff need a legitimate rotation 1 and the Sox should can both pitching coaches and get somebody that knows what the hell he is doing and that the pitchers respect.

 

As for Salty, I don't know what else he does wrong as far as handling the pitchers goes. I can only go by what I see and what I see is a catcher that does not set up properly behind the plate and there is nothing the pitcher can do to mitigate that....nothing! I am not disagreeing to the extent that these pitchers should not be responsible. My point really is that $180M does not insure you that you don't have a bad team. It may have some good individuals but you may still have a bad team. Maybe I would not go so far as to call it a bad team but IMO it sure as hell is not a good team.

[kapsis21]

They have been crap since September' date=' this rotation's performance isn't a fluke.[/quote']

 

agreed. but BV making stupid calls/changes hasnt helped. pitching coach presence has been nill compared to what John Farrell achieved here.

[iortiz]

Lester or beckett better be gone at the deadline or the little respect I had for Cherington is gone.

 

Well, some of us around here lost this looong time ago.

[jung]

Boy I don't know....by deadline???? who the hell pitches for this team then? I understand believe me cause I did not think they had the horses in the rotation before spring training started and said so.....but who do they have that can start if they dump Beckett now?

[iortiz]

IMO Lester is done this season. He is not comfortable in this organization anymore. Trade his ass. Beckett could give us a couple of good starts and s*** the bed other two. Then what you have? Buch? His question mark is as big as the ocean. Call me crazy but I would go with Morales, Cook and Douby these days until they s*** the bed.

 

That is our scenario, gentlemen.

[2004 ALCS]

Lester can still turn things around. It's not as if he's seen a drop in velocity or a significant change in his peripherals. His strike out rates are down, but so are his walks, resulting in the second best K/BB of his career. The only major differences this year are his high BABIP and his low LOB%.

[jung]

Well done for season may be but that is not done for a career here in Boston. He needs help that he is just not going to get this year. So I can see him being done for the season. The Sox have made enough mistakes of late. I think sending Lester packing unless the Sx get some great deal coming back would just be another.

[Palodios]

The Red Sox's record with Shoppach catching 18-10, 3.80 ERA.

The Red Sox's record with Salty catching 27-37, 4.33 ERA.

 

I think it is a nobrainer. Salty is killing this team.

[User Name]

IMO Lester is done this season. He is not comfortable in this organization anymore. Trade his ass. Beckett could give us a couple of good starts and s*** the bed other two. Then what you have? Buch? His question mark is as big as the ocean. Call me crazy but I would go with Morales, Cook and Douby these days until they s*** the bed.

 

That is our scenario, gentlemen.

 

How do you know this, and how does trading him make sense when his value is the lowest?

 

It can be a mechanical issue or difficulty adapting to a new pitching coach who, by all accounts, is failing miserably with the starting staff for this team.

[iortiz]

How do you know this, and how does trading him make sense when his value is the lowest?

 

It can be a mechanical issue or difficulty adapting to a new pitching coach who, by all accounts, is failing miserably with the starting staff for this team.

 

How? because I have a crystal ball, it is "mystical"

 

Dude... Is my opinion. Read.

[SoxSport]

I agree I would start Cook, Doubront and Morales. Put Dice-K and Lester on a diet in the bullpen, and try to trade one or both. Especially Dice-K. They should have packed him in Youks travel bag to Chicago.