2012 Injuries and Updates

[SoxFanForsyth]

If they don't think they can sign him long term' date=' they should trade him, but I don't think that Cherries has the cajones to trade him.[/quote']

 

Trade Ellsbury for Hamels. Trade Lester for Justin Upton. Sign Hamels long term. Make it happen.

[a700hitter]

Trade Ellsbury for Hamels. Trade Lester for Justin Upton. Sign Hamels long term. Make it happen.

I don't think Hamels signs an extension at the TD. Has any big time pitcher agreed to a sign and trade in his walk year? I am all for acquiring him as a FA in the offseason and doing the Upton trade too.

[Palodios]

I don't think Hamels signs an extension at the TD. Has any big time pitcher agreed to a sign and trade in his walk year? I am all for acquiring him as a FA in the offseason and doing the Upton trade too.

 

Remember when Philly was so scared of Cliff Lee leaving for free agency that they traded him for Halladay?

[SoxFanForsyth]

I don't think Hamels signs an extension at the TD. Has any big time pitcher agreed to a sign and trade in his walk year? I am all for acquiring him as a FA in the offseason and doing the Upton trade too.

 

I think Upton gets dealt at the deadline, so if they pull the trigger on that, then they have to deal Lester this year.

 

Now, what if they deal Lester for Upton, then deal Cecchini plus Lavarnway for Garza? That way they don't really lose a SP. A downgrade, yes, but it would also make a guy like Cody Ross expendable at the deadline.

 

What about this - what if you trade Ellsbury plus Beckett for Cliff Lee? Money comes out even, there's your ace. And you have him for multiple years, and now the Phillies can sign Hamels.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Oooof. Scratch the Lee trade. Didn't realize he was signed through 37, or, well I forgot.

[Palodios]

Oooof. Scratch the Lee trade. Didn't realize he was signed through 37' date=' or, well I forgot.[/quote']

 

Yeah, if someone was willing to take Cliff Lee off their hands, I'd bet they'd do it for a bag of baseballs, and Hamels would be signed within the week.

[SemperFi Sox]

Let's not trade our only reliable starting pitcher for that head case Upton. We're not exactly struggling to score runs.

[jung]

Reliable is not a description I would use for any of our starting pitchers this year. I do think in Lester's case he may well get close to his usual innings total for a season and that says something. Just don't think his numbers across those innings will be anything to wright home about.

[SemperFi Sox]

Reliable is not a description I would use for any of our starting pitchers this year. I do think in Lester's case he may well get close to his usual innings total for a season and that says something. Just don't think his numbers across those innings will be anything to wright home about.

 

Reliable as in I don't have to worry about him going on the DL every couple weeks.

[a700hitter]

I think Upton gets dealt at the deadline, so if they pull the trigger on that, then they have to deal Lester this year.

 

Now, what if they deal Lester for Upton, then deal Cecchini plus Lavarnway for Garza? That way they don't really lose a SP. A downgrade, yes, but it would also make a guy like Cody Ross expendable at the deadline.

 

What about this - what if you trade Ellsbury plus Beckett for Cliff Lee? Money comes out even, there's your ace. And you have him for multiple years, and now the Phillies can sign Hamels.

I'd do the Upton trade now and try to piece together a deal for a 2 month pitcher rental for the remainder of 2012, but then go full throttle for Hamels in the off season.

[iortiz]

If CC needs TJ surgery at some point, what in the hell are they waiting for? Miss most part of 2013?... again?

 

Hell, 2012 doesn't look good for us anyway... I would prefer a 100% healthy CC in 2013.

 

Seriously, I do not understand.

[SemperFi Sox]

If CC needs TJ surgery at some point, what in the hell are they waiting for? Miss most part of 2013?... again?

 

Hell, 2012 doesn't look good for us anyway... I would prefer a 100% healthy CC in 2013.

 

Seriously, I do not understand.

 

I would not be surprised at all come next April he gets it done. Having all offseason to do it would be too simple.

[Palodios]

I would not be surprised at all come next April he gets it done. Having all offseason to do it would be too simple.

 

If I had a guess, I would probably say April is his surgery date as well.

[a700hitter]

If I had a guess' date=' I would probably say April is his surgery date as well.[/quote']

This would make me laugh, but it is probably the way it will happen.

[jung]

I don't think a team can force a player into surgery if he wants to try to play. I actually think all they can do is have the discussion with him if they think he should have it done now but that is about it.

 

It does put the Sox in a difficult spot. If CC wants to rejoin the team at this point the PR would be deadly if they refused to let him do so. If he is then stuck soft tossing from left field, the Sox will have to decide if soft tossing from left is a tradeoff worth making against his hitting. Guess they will just have to wait and see. It really just turns out to be another unenviable position for the Sox to be in with regard to the whole CC mess.

[a700hitter]

I don't think a team can force a player into surgery if he wants to try to play. I actually think all they can do is have the discussion with him if they think he should have it done now but that is about it.

 

It does put the Sox in a difficult spot. If CC wants to rejoin the team at this point the PR would be deadly if they refused to let him do so. If he is then stuck soft tossing from left field, the Sox will have to decide if soft tossing from left is a tradeoff worth making against his hitting. Guess they will just have to wait and see. It really just turns out to be another unenviable position for the Sox to be in with regard to the whole CC mess.

In 2008 the Red Sox refused to let Schilling get surgery. They had him do physical therapy that didn't work. He wanted to get the surgery, rehab and try to get back by the end of the season. The vetoed his decision.

[jung]

In 2008 the Red Sox refused to let Schilling get surgery. They had him do physical therapy that didn't work. He wanted to get the surgery, rehab and try to get back by the end of the season. The vetoed his decision.

 

Ya' but that is the other end of the spectrum. I think they can in fact refuse to support the player who wants the surgery at a particular point although it likely opens them up to a tremendous amount of potential liability to do that, depending on the result, the age of the player, all sorts of things

 

If the player does not want the surgery I don't think the team can do anything to force it on him at a particular point in time. They cannot void his contract, they cannot dock his pay. I don't there is anything they can really do.

[example1]

All this talk about trading for Upton and signing Hamels and trading Beckett and Lester...

 

I thought we were just talking about not getting into these big FA deals and reserving our prospects for the future? First, Upton will take more than current-Lester. I suspect the Sox could get him, but it would cost a fair amount. I like Upton and would definitely roll the dice on him during the prime of his career (24 years old) but man he would deplete a farm system. It would be a huge risk. And he's not exactly cheap (~10m, 14m, 14m next three years).

 

Pumpsie and I have actually found our first common ground recently: don't trade away pitching prospects. Go get pitching prospects. The Sox have to find a way to have a sustainable rotation that isn't bloated with overpriced meatheads. Trading Beckett would help with that, as will letting Dice-K go, but they should sacrifice "big-nameness" for payroll flexibility and the ability to bounce back from injury as a team.

 

So that tells me: don't trade Lester. It seems reactionary to me. This is a bad year for him. He's not hurt, his stuff isn't worse, he's just a bit lost on the mound. There's a very good chance he pops out of it. He's 28 years old, not that expensive, and durable. Pitchers have bad years.

 

Who was the 28 year old pitcher who put up a 6.29 ERA, 1.521 WHIP, only to turn around and win the Cy Young the following year? Cliff Lee, 2007. He was terrible. One of the worst pitchers in the league.

 

In fact, through his age 28 season, Lee had a career 4.64 ERA and 1.375 WHIP.

 

Baseball works in mysterious ways and as frustrated as we are with him now, would anyone be shocked if Lester were an all-star again next year? We know how good he really is.

 

... back to injury discussion.

[jung]

I would not trade Lester although now Gammons is talking about Lester not being happy in Boston and I don't know what that might really mean.

 

I do however think that the Sox have had a really bad run of pitching coaches including the current pitching coach.

[example1]

Lester tweeted that he loves playing in Boston, wants to finish his career there. Probably in response to Gammons.

 

Honestly, nobody is "being happy in Boston" right now. Wouldn't we have a big problem with someone who was happy right now?

[jung]

Well if Lester does not have an issue with playing here then that is one less complication thank God.

 

I do think the Sox could use a good pitching coach, somebody that the pitchers actually respect and listen to , even if it is somebody they fear, like the last good pitching coach they had around here.

[Bellhorn04]

The Sox have to find a way to have a sustainable rotation that isn't bloated with overpriced meatheads.

 

Very nicely put.

[jung]

Originally Posted by example1

The Sox have to find a way to have a sustainable rotation that isn't bloated with overpriced meatheads.

 

Well the only way I think you can have a sustainable rotation that is not overpriced is the grow it....instead of trading pitching prospects away much like the Rays have done. Nice to have a couple years when you are not picking at the bottom of rounds but that is not in my view as important as picking well and then not trading away those pitching pieces before you get to develop them.

 

As for the Meathead part, seems to me that the meathead part tends to follow the money part. So I would be less inclined to big money FA pitching signings unless I felt very comfortable with the head that happened to rest above the arm, something that the Sox seem to ignore regularly whether the FA is a pitcher or a position player.

 

I don't know how the Sox became so enamored with pitchers from Texas. While I don't have anything against Texas this whole Marlboro man in cleats thing is starting to wear me out. Then again when we diversify, do we have to go all the way to Japan to do it?

[a700hitter]

All this talk about trading for Upton and signing Hamels and trading Beckett and Lester...

 

I thought we were just talking about not getting into these big FA deals and reserving our prospects for the future? First, Upton will take more than current-Lester. I suspect the Sox could get him, but it would cost a fair amount. I like Upton and would definitely roll the dice on him during the prime of his career (24 years old) but man he would deplete a farm system. It would be a huge risk. And he's not exactly cheap (~10m, 14m, 14m next three years).

 

Pumpsie and I have actually found our first common ground recently: don't trade away pitching prospects. Go get pitching prospects. The Sox have to find a way to have a sustainable rotation that isn't bloated with overpriced meatheads. Trading Beckett would help with that, as will letting Dice-K go, but they should sacrifice "big-nameness" for payroll flexibility and the ability to bounce back from injury as a team.

 

So that tells me: don't trade Lester. It seems reactionary to me. This is a bad year for him. He's not hurt, his stuff isn't worse, he's just a bit lost on the mound. There's a very good chance he pops out of it. He's 28 years old, not that expensive, and durable. Pitchers have bad years.

 

Who was the 28 year old pitcher who put up a 6.29 ERA, 1.521 WHIP, only to turn around and win the Cy Young the following year? Cliff Lee, 2007. He was terrible. One of the worst pitchers in the league.

 

In fact, through his age 28 season, Lee had a career 4.64 ERA and 1.375 WHIP.

 

Baseball works in mysterious ways and as frustrated as we are with him now, would anyone be shocked if Lester were an all-star again next year? We know how good he really is.

 

... back to injury discussion.

This is the second year in a row that his numbers have declined, so I don't think we can just chalk this up to a bad season. As for the comparison to Lee, we have to consider whetehr he could turn into a Lincecum. Also, Lee is not a pwer pitcher like Lester. This team needs an overhaul. I think Lester would bring back much more than Beckett on the trade market. I think a 28 year old Lester could most definitely land Upton.

[SemperFi Sox]

Crawford is moving like dog s***.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Crawford is moving like dog s***.

 

Based on what??

[Elktonnick]

Based on what??

 

Based on watching him play tonight on NESN. He isn't running well. He failed to run out a blopper down the third base line that would have been a double. He also still has that wide open stance although he may have closed it a tad.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Cherrington said Pedroia should be back right after his 15 day stint is up. Pedey took BP today, hit a few into the seats in TB.

 

His DL stint is over on the 20th, so it wouldn't surprise me to see him back that weekend for the Blue Jays series.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Based on watching him play tonight on NESN. He isn't running well. He failed to run out a blopper down the third base line that would have been a double. He also still has that wide open stance although he may have closed it a tad.

 

Ah. I'm on vacation so I don't get NESN. But I did see Brian McPherson said he just didn't get out of the box, like he thought it was going foul, not as in he isn't running well.

 

As for the wide open stance, he is always going to have that. He was just trying to get it back to TB standards, which was slightly more closed than it was last year.

[Brennan]

I would love to see Lester confront Gammons about all this. It won't happen but it would be cool. What the hell with Gammons saying something like this anyway? I think the old goat has been struggling with senility the last few years anyway.