If the sox blew it up thread

[Palodios]

Since last all star break, his ERA is up nearly a run (4.15), his WHIP up 0.11, his IP per start down 0.3, his K/9 down by 1 and his K/BB down 0.5. All his numbers across the board are slipping, and this yr he is only confirming those numbers instead of writing them off as just a bad half season. You have to do something. If you think getting rid of Beckett will cover it, then do it. But you either have to get an ace level return or hope he returns to his ace like form. Otherwise, you are stuck with a middle of the rotation pitcher who will become overpriced soon

 

You're hiding the truth of his season with a statement of that.

 

ERA

June 2.31

July 1.56

August 2.78

September 5.40

[jacksonianmarch]

Translation: no October baseball.

 

a700, they have the second highest payroll in baseball and have sucked it hard this yr. What the sox didnt get was that the Yankee payroll grew as their core players grew. And they had unquestioned leaders running the clubhouse. They made their big acquisitions, but they also had the core four. Now, they are down to two, with one of them out for the season. But they brought in some high character guys like Sabathia, Martin, Granderson, Swisher, etc. Guys who have taken on leadership roles with their club. The sox seemed to chase the numbers, but brought in guys who werent central figures in their clubhouses or were the best players on fractured/s***** teams. I think the sox might end up cutting costs as well and developing some of their players. If they do that, it might mean no October baseball in 2013, but it also might mean you have a team capable of winning the title in 2014. As is, this sox team is not capable of winning a world series title. And I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that the clubhouse sucks and the team appears to not care. Olney talked about it today, saying that the clubhouse was "toxic".

[ellsburyforMVP]

It's called a mental exercise. Try it. If you created a Yankee thread' date=' I'd give you my honest opinion[/quote']

 

Ok, tell me what Yankee forum you participate in, I'll join.... And if the roles are ever reversed ( or hypothetically let's say they are ) I'll start a thread ( as a known Red sox fan ) and discuss trading jeter and arod or cano....... Wonder what kind of reaction I'll get....Papi is a fan favorite ( and is still producing ) any talk or even entertaining the idea is ridiculous ( I've heard you mention trading Papi specifically in other threads )

 

If anyone on this team deserves to retire a Red sox, it's Ortiz....

[jacksonianmarch]

You're hiding the truth of his season with a statement of that.

 

ERA

June 2.31

July 1.56

August 2.78

September 5.40

 

He was hurt in July, and the warning signs were there in August. 16 walks in 32IP was a problem, but he only allowed 22 hits. In September, he was similarly wild, but the hits corrected. This yr, he hasnt been crushed, but he hasnt been sharp effectively all yr. His stuff is still good, but the focus has been poor. He'll have games where he is just mediocre and then games where he dominates, then has a 3 batter stretch that he loses focus and struggles.

[jacksonianmarch]

Ok, tell me what Yankee forum you participate in, I'll join.... And if the roles are ever reversed ( or hypothetically let's say they are ) I'll start a thread ( as a known Red sox fan ) and discuss trading jeter and arod or cano....... Wonder what kind of reaction I'll get....Papi is a fan favorite ( and is still producing ) any talk or even entertaining the idea is ridiculous ( I've heard you mention trading Papi specifically in other threads )

 

If anyone on this team deserves to retire a Red sox, it's Ortiz....

 

It would be hard for that to work seeing as the Yankees are the best team in the AL. Right now, there is no reason to shake anything up. It isnt a completely "out there" idea for the sox to rebuild. I don't think you are understanding how baseball works these days. Guys who are producing on non-playoff teams on short contracts get dealt in season. It's reality. Welcome to it

[Palodios]

Ok, tell me what Yankee forum you participate in, I'll join.... And if the roles are ever reversed ( or hypothetically let's say they are ) I'll start a thread ( as a known Red sox fan ) and discuss trading jeter and arod or cano....... Wonder what kind of reaction I'll get....Papi is a fan favorite ( and is still producing ) any talk or even entertaining the idea is ridiculous ( I've heard you mention trading Papi specifically in other threads )

 

If anyone on this team deserves to retire a Red sox, it's Ortiz....

 

This is a reasonable thread. The Red Sox's season may be coming to an end soon. Personally, I want to see the Red Sox cash in chips, and stock up their farm system to kingdom come, and make a run in 2014 while keeping a core of Pedroia, Buch, Lester, Agon, Bard, Middlebrooks, Kalish etc etc etc.

 

The talent is there, and will continue to be there, even if they trade a few bad seeds. But this season is close to being lost, and it is worth getting what you can from rental players while you can.

[jacksonianmarch]

And right now, Ortiz is a rental player. If the shoe was on the other foot and the Yankees were 8 games out and looking flat, I'd absolutely be looking to deal Jeter.

[ellsburyforMVP]

This is a reasonable thread. The Red Sox's season may be coming to an end soon. Personally, I want to see the Red Sox cash in chips, and stock up their farm system to kingdom come, and make a run in 2014 while keeping a core of Pedroia, Buch, Lester, Agon, Bard, Middlebrooks, Kalish etc etc etc.

 

The talent is there, and will continue to be there, even if they trade a few bad seeds. But this season is close to being lost, and it is worth getting what you can from rental players while you can.

 

So your saying it's ok to just get rid of one of the best players in the teams recent history? Like I said, a fan favorite? Instead of letting him eventually ( pretty soon ) retire a Red sox?

 

Hey Papi, thanks for the 350 hr's....and the great attitude you bring to the ballpark every single day, and even though you probably intend to retire in a yr or so.....we're shipping you out of here for a kid that may or may not turn into something a few yrs from now....

 

There's quite a few players I would be fine with the sox " dumping" ..... Sorry, Papi isn't one of them

[ellsburyforMVP]

And right now' date=' Ortiz is a rental player. If the shoe was on the other foot and the Yankees were 8 games out and looking flat, I'd absolutely be looking to deal Jeter.[/quote']

 

I'm gonna go out on a limb and 1st of all say that would never happen ( and you know it ) and there would be a few million New Yorkers that would completely disagree with you

[jacksonianmarch]

So your saying it's ok to just get rid of one of the best players in the teams recent history? Like I said, a fan favorite? Instead of letting him eventually ( pretty soon ) retire a Red sox?

 

Hey Papi, thanks for the 350 hr's....and the great attitude you bring to the ballpark every single day, and even though you probably intend to retire in a yr or so.....we're shipping you out of here for a kid that may or may not turn into something a few yrs from now....

 

There's quite a few players I would be fine with the sox " dumping" ..... Sorry, Papi isn't one of them

 

It isnt a dump if you get value for them. Once again, if the show was on the other foot, I would ABSOLUTELY deal Derek Jeter if the deal would help us in the future. Ortiz is probably in his last 3 seasons as a big leaguer. If the sox are going to blow it up, then he should be dealt. As is, I think Ortiz is a goner anyway since he had a rather contentious exchange with them in the offseason and I highly doubt the sox are willing to do the arb thing again. My guess is they offer him a 1 yr deal and decline arb and watch him latch on with someone else.

[Palodios]

So your saying it's ok to just get rid of one of the best players in the teams recent history? Like I said, a fan favorite? Instead of letting him eventually ( pretty soon ) retire a Red sox?

 

Hey Papi, thanks for the 350 hr's....and the great attitude you bring to the ballpark every single day, and even though you probably intend to retire in a yr or so.....we're shipping you out of here for a kid that may or may not turn into something a few yrs from now....

 

There's quite a few players I would be fine with the sox " dumping" ..... Sorry, Papi isn't one of them

 

Ortiz is a 10-5 player. If he gets traded, it will be his decision to allow it. The guy is a hero here, and will retire a Red Sox, but if he'd allow a change of scenary and the Red Sox can get a top 100 prospect for him, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

[jacksonianmarch]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and 1st of all say that would never happen ( and you know it ) and there would be a few million New Yorkers that would completely disagree with you

 

And Cashman would be a fool not to look for it. You have to remember here, these guys shouldnt be fans. They need to keep in mind the best interests of the baseball team. Great players get released, get traded, get signed by other clubs. Nobody really remembers that Babe Ruth played with the Braves, Reggie with the Angels, Pettitte with the Astros, etc. These guys move on, and so should the fans. Papi could bring quite a haul, and if they dont plan on having him around next yr, which I do NOT think they do, then they should deal him

[redsoxrules]

And right now' date=' Ortiz is a rental player. If the shoe was on the other foot and the Yankees were 8 games out and looking flat, I'd absolutely be looking to deal [b']Jeter[/b].

 

Jeter isn't going ANYWHERE , even if the Yankee's were 20 games back .

He's retiring as a Yankee

[jacksonianmarch]

Jeter isn't going ANYWHERE , even if the Yankee's were 20 games back .

He's retiring as a Yankee

 

Well, right now, he isnt going anywhere. He's anchoring the best team in the AL. I am just saying that if this team was bad, he'd have to be on the table. I doubt he'd accept a trade as a 10-5 guy, but I would absolutely deal him if our team was out of it

[Meh]

Even if the sox do well and turn it on, they still should call up Lavarnway and bench or trade Salty.

[jacksonianmarch]

Salty has been good this yr. If the plan is to bring up Lavs and start him at C, you need to deal Salty while his value is high

[Bellhorn04]

Well' date=' right now, he isnt going anywhere. He's anchoring the best team in the AL. I am just saying that if this team was bad, he'd have to be on the table. I doubt he'd accept a trade as a 10-5 guy, but I would absolutely deal him if our team was out of it[/quote']

 

I think you're overstating things a bit. The Yankees are on a great roll right now, no doubt about it, and they might be the best team in the AL. But as recently as May 29 they were only 3 games over .500 and there were a lot of fans complaining about what a s***** team it was-including yourself I believe. Baseball is a very volatile game. Teams can go on big runs in either direction without anyone seeing it coming.

[jacksonianmarch]

I think you're overstating things a bit. The Yankees are on a great roll right now' date=' no doubt about it, and they might be the best team in the AL. But as recently as May 29 they were only 3 games over .500 and there were a lot of fans complaining about what a s***** team it was-including yourself I believe. Baseball is a very volatile game. Teams can go on big runs in either direction without anyone seeing it coming.[/quote']

 

They were a disjointed club who finally found their stride. They wont be this good, but the Yankees typically lie in the weeds early on then find their stride. The sox arent looking like that kind of team

[Bellhorn04]

The Red Sox right now seem to be a good example of the whole being less than the sum of the parts. Maybe that has a lot to do with dissension and the lingering effects of last year. It's pretty hard to rule that out.

 

I don't think the team should freak out and start making rash moves. That could be disastrous. But if Josh Beckett is the clubhouse cancer and they can make a smart trade for him then sure, do it.

 

In general I think 2012 is probably going to be another one of those years Sox fans are just going to have to suffer out till things get better. Do we have smart people at the top is the real question, I guess.

[jacksonianmarch]

The Red Sox right now seem to be a good example of the whole being less than the sum of the parts. Maybe that has a lot to do with dissension and the lingering effects of last year. It's pretty hard to rule that out.

 

I don't think the team should freak out and start making rash moves. That could be disastrous. But if Josh Beckett is the clubhouse cancer and they can make a smart trade for him then sure, do it.

 

In general I think 2012 is probably going to be another one of those years Sox fans are just going to have to suffer out till things get better. Do we have smart people at the top is the real question, I guess.

 

I think the execs needed to see if they had the team that collapsed in September, or the team that surged prior to that. Thus far, it's apparent that the September team is what you have. If Beckett proves to be healthy and not need something more serious, then he is gonna be a goner before next season. Bank on it

[BornToRun]

I love how Beckett is automatically the clubhouse cancer because he says f*** all to the media, ate chicken in the locker room, and played golf on an off day. The guys performed up to standards this year and we are better off with him than without him.

[Bellhorn04]

I think the execs needed to see if they had the team that collapsed in September' date=' or the team that surged prior to that. Thus far, it's apparent that the September team is what you have. If Beckett proves to be healthy and not need something more serious, then he is gonna be a goner before next season. Bank on it[/quote']

 

Any thoughts on where they might deal Beckett and for what?

[jacksonianmarch]

Any thoughts on where they might deal Beckett and for what?

 

You're gonna think I am crazy, but how about the Pirates? They are getting insane revenue sharing money and have a team that is only a handful of games out. They are getting good performances from Burnett and McDonald, but could really use another solid pitcher to put themselves on the map. You send Beckett and money to the Pirates and they might part with Taillon, who I think is a future ace, but 3 yrs away

[Bellhorn04]

You're gonna think I am crazy' date=' but how about the Pirates? They are getting insane revenue sharing money and have a team that is only a handful of games out. They are getting good performances from Burnett and McDonald, but could really use another solid pitcher to put themselves on the map. You send Beckett and money to the Pirates and they might part with Taillon, who I think is a future ace, but 3 yrs away[/quote']

 

That's tricky though, if they're eating a lot of money it hampers them from being able to go after an established starter.

[jacksonianmarch]

You get a guy like Taillon and you wont need to worry about it. Another potential suitor would be the Brewers after Greinke departs via FA.

[Bellhorn04]

The thing is, Sox fans have no patience and they probably never will again, assuming the team continues to be rich. If they miss the playoffs for the third year in a row people aren't going to want to hear about building for a great 2015 team. That's the predicament this FO is in now.

[jacksonianmarch]

The thing is' date=' Sox fans have no patience and they probably never will again, assuming the team continues to be rich. If they miss the playoffs for the third year in a row people aren't going to want to hear about building for a great 2015 team. That's the predicament this FO is in now.[/quote']

 

The bandwagon pink hats are falling off. Real sox fans like yourself dont care, but the sox do. They are probably looking at a quick fix since they have ridiculous committments to AdGon and Crawford, so they have to go for it. But they need to retool something fierce and patience or no, the team on the field in the big bean isnt a playoff team

[Palodios]

I love how Beckett is automatically the clubhouse cancer because he says f*** all to the media' date=' ate chicken in the locker room, and played golf on an off day. The guys performed up to standards this year and we are better off with him than without him.[/quote']

 

This is the guy who grew overweight and stopped working out in 2011.

 

This is the guy who took a limo to spring training, after Bobby V explicitly said that the team gets in the bus together, and drives into the game together.

 

This is the guy who skipped a start when his team was floundering to play golf.

 

This is the guy who had a 5.48 in April of last year.

 

This is the guy who was more concerned about the snitch -- a fellow teammate-- than the most humilating blowup in MLB history.

 

This is the guy who bitched and whined until he got his own personal catcher.

 

Do I need to continue?He's a self-centered prick, and he can't stay healthy because he doesn't keep himself in shape. He's a cancer, and he needs to go.

[SCM33]

This is the guy who grew overweight and stopped working out in 2011.

 

This is the guy who took a limo to spring training, after Bobby V explicitly said that the team gets in the bus together, and drives into the game together.

 

This is the guy who skipped a start when his team was floundering to play golf.

 

This is the guy who had a 5.48 in April of last year.

 

This is the guy who was more concerned about the snitch -- a fellow teammate-- than the most humilating blowup in MLB history.

 

This is the guy who bitched and whined until he got his own personal catcher.

 

Do I need to continue?He's a self-centered prick, and he can't stay healthy because he doesn't keep himself in shape. He's a cancer, and he needs to go.

 

Ive been arguing this for 3 years.

 

Not worth going down that road, he does no wrong.

[Palodios]

You're gonna think I am crazy' date=' but how about the Pirates? They are getting insane revenue sharing money and have a team that is only a handful of games out. They are getting good performances from Burnett and McDonald, but could really use another solid pitcher to put themselves on the map. You send Beckett and money to the Pirates and they might part with Taillon, who I think is a future ace, but 3 yrs away[/quote']

 

Beckett has 10-5 rights. Do you really think he'd be willing to go to the Pirates? The best fit is going to be the Rangers. They will lose some combination of Hamilton, Kinsler, Colby Lewis, Oswalt, Napoli, Nelson Cruz and Michael Young in the next two years.

 

Adding Josh Beckett to that team would win them a championship. They've come so close the last two years, they must be getting desperate by now. If the Red Sox eat some money in 2012, they'll be able to get one of the Ranger's upper prospects out of the deal.