Epstein admits he screwed up

[alphilip77]

Thread title pretty much sums it up. Article discusses how he strayed from his philosophy in the later stages of his Red Sox tenure, emphasizing the actions taken in the 2009-2010 offseason.

 

http://espn.go.com/boston/mlb/story/_/id/8049278/theo-epstein-admits-errors-late-boston-red-sox-tenure

[SoxSport]

And Epstein's boys are still in charge. Just the money has changed.

[Cocos Disciples]

Considering that the $224.5M of Lackey and Crawford have played a grand total of 0 innings this season, yeah I'd say he screwed up.

[redsoxfan3]

We all know Epstein screwed up. That was a given. I just hope when Crawford comes back that we can keep him healthy from here on out and hopefully he can get close to producing at his career numbers. There is still some hope when Lackey returns, maybe he can be of some value before his contract is up.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

If I have a regret about the way we handled that offseason [after the 2009 season], it was that instead of being more patient and saying, 'We'll strike when the time is right,' there was a lot of pressure in the environment at the time to do something. If I learned a lesson from the offseason it's never feel the need to do something.

 

Hmmm... I wonder if it's the same Red Sox fans who were creating that pressure and screaming for these kneejerk signings in the first place who are the ones making fun of Epstein now and criticizing all the dead money tied up in the team, as if this is the exact opposite of what they wished for back in the day.

[jacksonianmarch]

Hmmm... I wonder if it's the same Red Sox fans who were creating that pressure and screaming for those kneejerk signings in the first place who are the ones making fun of Epstein now and criticizing all the dead money tied up in the team' date=' as if this is the exact opposite of what they wished for back in the day.[/quote']

 

Here's the deal. Fans are emotionally invested but not financially invested in the team. When it is your job, you must resist emotions playing into things. Theo was great at that early in his career. Hell, he dealt Nomar, held strong in keeping Youkilis and turned a barren farm system into one capable of producing solid hitters and front line starters. The problem is, he deviated from that strategy because he wanted a quick fix. In the AL East, a quick fix is necessary or else you'll get buried by the team that has mastered the quick fix in NY. He got greedy instead of sticking to his guns and the sox are paying for it now. If Theo has truly learned his lesson, then I think the Cubbies will be good again in 3 yrs or so. If he hasnt and he starts spending like a drunken sailor again, the Cubbies will be at 120 yrs before they make any hay

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

I'm not making excuses for Theo. Those were terrible signings. I'm just pointing out how it's the same crowd of Boston fans/pundits that created that pressurized situation around the team and begged for these signings in the first place who are now frothing at the mouth and whining about the state of the organization and how dumb Theo is after the fact.

 

I just think it's funny.

[yeszir]

I'm not making excuses for Theo. Those were terrible signings. I'm just pointing out how it's the same crowd of Boston fans/pundits that created that pressurized situation around the team and begged for these signings in the first place who are now frothing at the mouth and whining about the state of the organization and how dumb Theo is after the fact.

 

I just think it's funny.

 

This is so true

[FredLynn]

I'm not making excuses for Theo. Those were terrible signings. I'm just pointing out how it's the same crowd of Boston fans/pundits that created that pressurized situation around the team and begged for these signings in the first place who are now frothing at the mouth and whining about the state of the organization and how dumb Theo is after the fact.

 

I just think it's funny.

 

I don't remember many people begging to sign Lackey. In fact, I remember many people pointing out his career numbers at Fenway Park, which were bad before he got here and worse now. There certainly wasn't the jubilation surrounding his arrival that surrounded that of Gonzalez. And with regard to Crawford, people questioned why him, why another LHH OF who relied on speed when we already have Ellsbury. There actually are some smart baseball fans in Boston who were less than overwhelmed by these signings. I think that the fans/pundits were more interested in signing the right players than signing someone with a big name. Besides, in the end, its the job of the GM to do the right thing. Thats what he gets paid for. Epstein didn't do the right thing and the franchise will be paying for it for many many years. Thats his legacy IMO.

[Bellhorn04]

Epstein's legacy is a mixed one, kind of hard to leave out the fact he was GM for the first two championships since 1918.

[VA Sox Fan]

Epstein's legacy is a mixed one' date=' kind of hard to leave out the fact he was GM for the first two championships since 1918.[/quote']

 

Exactly.

[SoxSport]

Quick fix means playing Yankee moneyball. Fatal mistake.

He hasn't spent a dime yet in Chicago, and his buddy Ben has no money, either.

 

Throwing $160-180 mil at a player guaranteed over 6-8 years is incredibly risky.

Look at the Angels right now with Pujols. They are stuck with a declining player. And the Red Sox are stuck with more, and don't have a Fox TV contract to fall back on. NESN isn't that big.

[FredLynn]

Epstein's legacy is a mixed one' date=' kind of hard to leave out the fact he was GM for the first two championships since 1918.[/quote']

 

He didn't have much to do with the 2004 team. That team was largely assembled by his predecessors. I am not giving him more than 40% credit for that. The 2007 team, yes. But thats overshadowed by how badly he screwed us before he left.

[SoxSport]

I'm not making excuses for Theo. Those were terrible signings. I'm just pointing out how it's the same crowd of Boston fans/pundits that created that pressurized situation around the team and begged for these signings in the first place who are now frothing at the mouth and whining about the state of the organization and how dumb Theo is after the fact.

 

I just think it's funny.

 

 

Which goes to show you can't pay any attention to the media. Their agenda is to make money--not to win games.

 

Belichick has a sign over the locker room door. It says: "Ignore the Media", or equivalent.

[Bellhorn04]

He didn't have much to do with the 2004 team. That team was largely assembled by his predecessors.

 

No, that's a fallacy. The 2004 team that won the World Series had Schilling, Arroyo, Foulke, Timlin, Ortiz, Millar, Bellhorn, Cabrera, Mueller and Roberts, none of whom were from the Duquette 2002 team. That's the top-winning pitcher, the closer and main set-up guy, the entire infield and the DH, plus a few more.

[VA Sox Fan]

No' date=' that's a fallacy. The 2004 team that won the World Series had Schilling, Arroyo, Foulke, Timlin, Ortiz, Millar, Bellhorn, Cabrera, Mueller and Roberts, none of whom were from the Duquette 2002 team. That's the top-winning pitcher, the closer and main set-up guy, the entire infield and the DH, plus a few more.[/quote']

 

Right again.

[redsoxbeatz]

He admits he screwed up? Cool.

[Youk Of The Nation]

This is so true

 

Exactly. I hate listening to people complain about every bad signing, or signing they see as bad. Lackey, Crawford, Scutaro, Drew, Lugo, Renteria, et cetera. Yes, guys sucked. Lackey was awful. Dice-K was not worth the money. But the question I ask myself all the time while I silently listen to people complain is "Did anyone think these guys were going to be this bad?" I was happy the Sox signed Lackey. When he sucked, I was pissed that he sucked, but not pissed at the Red Sox, pissed at John Lackey. No one signs big free agents thinking "Man, this guy is going to suck SO HARD. I'm a genius!". I never blame the front office for bombs when the guys they signed are guys with a history of success. The only time I get annoyed is when they sign guys who you can tell have a better chance of failure than success, due to age or infirmity. Guys like Mike Cameron.

[jacksonianmarch]

The guy makes the moves that ended the curse. He then brought up the pieces to win another title and he is villified. I can tell you, if we rewind the clock 8 seasons and I could tell you what was in your future, you'd take it in a heartbeat, even if the sox didnt win it for another 20 years

[VA Sox Fan]

The guy makes the moves that ended the curse. He then brought up the pieces to win another title and he is villified. I can tell you' date=' if we rewind the clock 8 seasons and I could tell you what was in your future, you'd take it in a heartbeat, even if the sox didnt win it for another 20 years[/quote']

 

Only vilified by a handful. The ususal suspects. Some folk's strong dislike for a person make them blind to reality.

[SoxFanForsyth]

God I can't wait for Crawford to come back and be the guy we thought we signed, and really boost this team to the PS.

 

Then everyone will absolutely love Crawford. Kind of like people who absolutely loved Gonzo now absolutely hate him.

[FredLynn]

Exactly. I hate listening to people complain about every bad signing' date=' or signing they see as bad. Lackey, Crawford, Scutaro, Drew, Lugo, Renteria, et cetera. Yes, guys sucked. Lackey was awful. Dice-K was not worth the money. But the question I ask myself all the time while I silently listen to people complain is "Did anyone think these guys were going to be this bad?" I was happy the Sox signed Lackey. When he sucked, I was pissed that he sucked, but not pissed at the Red Sox, pissed at [i']John Lackey[/i]. No one signs big free agents thinking "Man, this guy is going to suck SO HARD. I'm a genius!". I never blame the front office for bombs when the guys they signed are guys with a history of success. The only time I get annoyed is when they sign guys who you can tell have a better chance of failure than success, due to age or infirmity. Guys like Mike Cameron.

 

Its not our job to make good decisions. Thats the job of the GM, and unfortunately he made a lot of poor ones. More than he should have. Its up to him to judge talent and sign the players that will help the team, not put the team in a financial straightjacket. That is Epstein's major Achilles heel: he cannot judge talent. No one expects him to make only good decisions, but the list of poor decisions is so extensive that its perfectly reasonable for Sox fans to believe that he was just not that good a GM. He was average IMO. He did well with the farm system and his draft choices, but when it came to his FA acquisitions, he was poor. He wasted a lot of money when he added those guys to the roster and we are now paying the price for his poor judgement.

[SoxSport]

Wilbur lays it on the line here:

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/columnists/wilbur/2012/06/business_collap.html

 

I agree it's a management problem --from the top down. I've been saying that for awhile.

 

The lineup of prospects Epstein outlines includes a lot of the kids the current FO says needs "more experience."

 

More experience, BS. They are a bureaucracy. They have big money to spend, so they spend it.

 

If they went the prospect route, the team would be better and the ticket prices would be lower.

[jung]

It is a management problem. I was interested in Theo's comments about the push and pull between business management and baseball operations as it indicates what I always felt was true....baseball operations losses those arguments down at Fenway and we end up with a bunch high priced "sizzle" signings that don't make for a very well constructed team.

[FredLynn]

No' date=' that's a fallacy. The 2004 team that won the World Series had Schilling, Arroyo, Foulke, Timlin, Ortiz, Millar, Bellhorn, Cabrera, Mueller and Roberts, none of whom were from the Duquette 2002 team. That's the top-winning pitcher, the closer and main set-up guy, the entire infield and the DH, plus a few more.[/quote']

 

No, thats true.

While Epstein admittedly made some good choices for the 2004 team, most of the starting rotation was already in place when he got there-Martinez, Lowe, and Wakefield were already there. I admit that without Schilling (who, as I recall, was signed with only tangential assistance from Epstein-I can get the full story if you like) we do not win a ring, but without Martinez we don't win a ring either. Or Lowe. In addition, Jason Varitek, who was still very productive back then (.296/.872) was already here, as was Manny Ramirez (.308/1.009), Trot Nixon (.315/.887), and Kevin Youkilis (though he played a less important role then). Johnny Damon came to the Red Sox before Epstein got there as well (12/21/2001). As I said, much of the team was already in place when Epstein arrived, so he doesn't get full credit for the ring that year. He gets partial credit. He also gets full credit for financially hobbling this team for years.

[Bellhorn04]

No, thats true.

While Epstein admittedly made some good choices for the 2004 team, most of the starting rotation was already in place when he got there-Martinez, Lowe, and Wakefield were already there. I admit that without Schilling (who, as I recall, was signed with only tangential assistance from Epstein-I can get the full story if you like) we do not win a ring, but without Martinez we don't win a ring either. Or Lowe. In addition, Jason Varitek, who was still very productive back then (.296/.872) was already here, as was Manny Ramirez (.308/1.009), Trot Nixon (.315/.887), and Kevin Youkilis (though he played a less important role then). Johnny Damon came to the Red Sox before Epstein got there as well (12/21/2001). As I said, much of the team was already in place when Epstein arrived, so he doesn't get full credit for the ring that year. He gets partial credit. He also gets full credit for financially hobbling this team for years.

 

In your first post you said, and I quote 'He didn't have much to do with the 2004 team'. That is clearly not true.

 

Yes, go ahead and get us the 'full story' on Schilling.

[FredLynn]

In your first post you said' date=' and I quote '[b']He didn't have much to do with the 2004 team[/b]'. That is clearly not true.

 

Yes, go ahead and get us the 'full story' on Schilling.

 

I said I would give him about 40% of the credit for that team. No more.

I'll attempt to get in touch with the people who know about the Schilling deal. They are on the other board.

[Bellhorn04]

I said I would give him about 40% of the credit for that team. No more.

I'll attempt to get in touch with the people who know about the Schilling deal. They are on the other board.

 

Fine, give him 40%. But it was the 40% that converted the team from one that missed the playoffs in 2000, 2001 & 2002 to one that went to the ALCS game 7 in 2003 and won it all in 2004.

[Youk Of The Nation]

Its not our job to make good decisions. Thats the job of the GM' date=' and unfortunately he made a lot of poor ones. More than he should have. Its up to him to judge talent and sign the players that will help the team, not put the team in a financial straightjacket. That is Epstein's major Achilles heel: he cannot judge talent. No one expects him to make only good decisions, but the list of poor decisions is so extensive that its perfectly reasonable for Sox fans to believe that he was just not that good a GM. He was average IMO. He did well with the farm system and his draft choices, but when it came to his FA acquisitions, he was poor. He wasted a lot of money when he added those guys to the roster and we are now paying the price for his poor judgement.[/quote']

 

That's not my point. Explain how Theo was supposed to predict that Lackey was going to be a bad signing? Or Crawford? Or Drew? What in the past indicated that any of these guys weren't going to be good?

[TutGadol]

I don't feel deserving to criticize his decision about Crawford because at the time I thought he would help win championships, but the Lackey contract always dazzled me.