The Youkilis Delusion?

[a700hitter]

Sweeney has 1.0 WAR, Ross has 1.2, Shoppach has 0.6, Punto has -0.1, Padilla has 0.4, and Byrd has -1.0 but that's with both Chicago and Boston. I don't have a way to split it accurately, so let's just split the difference and call it -0.5.

 

That's a total of 2.6 WAR added to the roster from signings and trades.

 

 

 

The players not on the opening day 25 man roster who have been called up (Spears, Repko, Lin, Nava, Middlebrooks, Podsednick, Tazawa) have accounted for 2.5 WAR already. Aviles has 0.7 so far. Doubront has 1.2 as a starter. As a reliever that number would be far less.

 

That's 4.4 WAR from player call ups.

 

 

 

If you'd like for me to stop using the term strawman, you should probably stop using terms like "genius!" in responding to me as I'm not calling Cherrington a genius or even a great GM. I'm arguing his decisions have brought value to the big league club. Combining the above totals we get 7.0 WAR added to the roster by his decisions so far.

 

Now, WAR is not equal when combing players versus one player. So 7.0 WAR from 12 players is not equal to 7.0 WAR from one player, but it is a significant positive value. Your position has zero evidence to support it while mine has ample statistical backing. Cherrington has brought more than nothing to the table. In fact, he's brought a significant amount of help and that's before considering what they might get out of players like Bailey in the future.

 

You may not want to acknowledge it, but identifying useful parts on your own roster and putting them into a position to contribute is part of the GM's job, and it's a part that Cherrington has done well so far. The numbers above demonstrate that irrefutably.

 

Note: I used fangraphs WAR.

What have the GM's of the Yankees, Tampa, Texas, Detroit and Los Angeles added, because all that matters is what he did to keep pace with the competition. These numbers mean nothing in a vacuum. If you insist on playing War, so far Papelbon has accounted for 0.7, Reddick 2.5, and Lowrie 2.1. That's a total of 5.3. Add to that the 1.1. that Bard gave us last season a reliever and the - 0.3 that he has produced as a starter and we're at 6.6 WAR lost. Then there is the 2.6 War that Aceves had in his swingman role last year and he is currently at -0.3 as a closer. Total WAR lost by Cherries is 9.5 War gained according to your post 7.0. He's down 2.5 WAR. As I said, he hasn't achieved anything yet, as born out by the way the team has been playing.

 

It looks like your opinion has been refuted.:harhar:

[SoxSport]

What have the GM's of the Yankees, Tampa, Texas, Detroit and Los Angeles added, because all that matters is what he did to keep pace with the competition. These numbers mean nothing in a vacuum. If you insist on playing War, so far Papelbon has accounted for 0.7, Reddick 2.5, and Lowrie 2.1. That's a total of 5.3. Add to that the 1.1. that Bard gave us last season a reliever and the - 0.3 that he has produced as a starter and we're at 6.6 WAR lost. Then there is the 2.6 War that Aceves had in his swingman role last year and he is currently at -0.3 as a closer. Total WAR lost by Cherries is 9.5 War gained according to your post 7.0. He's down 2.5 WAR. As I said, he hasn't achieved anything yet, as born out by the way the team has been playing.

 

It looks like your opinion has been refuted.:harhar:

 

 

Damn good reasons why the Sox are in last place. Plus they are missing a few major players due to injuries. Plus their starting pitching still sucks.

[evilhand]

What have the GM's of the Yankees, Tampa, Texas, Detroit and Los Angeles added, because all that matters is what he did to keep pace with the competition. These numbers mean nothing in a vacuum. If you insist on playing War, so far Papelbon has accounted for 0.7, Reddick 2.5, and Lowrie 2.1. That's a total of 5.3. Add to that the 1.1. that Bard gave us last season a reliever and the - 0.3 that he has produced as a starter and we're at 6.6 WAR lost. Then there is the 2.6 War that Aceves had in his swingman role last year and he is currently at -0.3 as a closer. Total WAR lost by Cherries is 9.5 War gained according to your post 7.0. He's down 2.5 WAR. As I said, he hasn't achieved anything yet, as born out by the way the team has been playing.

 

It looks like your opinion has been refuted.:harhar:

 

Way to move the goalposts. Your claim was that he's brought no value to the roster. Now you're saying we have to measure that against other teams? Maybe you should be more careful in how you phrase things.

 

This statement...

 

The fact is that Cherries has brought almost no helpful talent to the organization in his tenure.

 

...cannot be supported and is what I was using WAR to debunk. You can try to change the criteria now if you want, but I'm not biting.

[a700hitter]

Damn good reasons why the Sox are in last place. Plus they are missing a few major players due to injuries. Plus their starting pitching still sucks.

Yep, no arguments here. When Cherries starts addressing some of these issues, he'll get the well-deserved credit. I'm not ready to throw rose petals in his path based on his current record.

[Elktonnick]

Tony Mazz just said that Youklis "stinks" right now. Guess he is another one who isn't drinking the sabermetrics KoolAid. He also pointed out that Red Sox run production is misleading because they beat-up really bad pitching but really suck against good pitching.

[a700hitter]

Tony Mazz just said that Youklis "stinks" right now. Guess he is another one who isn't drinking the sabermetrics KoolAid. He also pointed out that Red Sox run production is misleading because they beat-up really bad pitching but really suck against good pitching.

That's what Eck said last night.

[a700hitter]

Tony Mazz just said that Youklis "stinks" right now. Guess he is another one who isn't drinking the sabermetrics KoolAid. He also pointed out that Red Sox run production is misleading because they beat-up really bad pitching but really suck against good pitching.

Aviles, Sweeney, DMac, etc are not great offensive players. They are over rated by Red Sox fans.

[Elktonnick]

Aviles' date=' Sweeney, DMac, etc are not great offensive players. They are over rated by Red Sox fans.[/quote']

 

I said that Aviles was oerrated and was hitting way above his head and would come down to earth. Aviles is not an everyday Shortstop. He is better suited as a super sub. DMac is at best a 4A player. Sweeney is good 4th or 5th outfielder if you need a lefy bat. Nava is about the same. Despite his success he is a good sub player who can fill in for an injury sauch as he is doiing now. Right now this team doesn't have a decent everyday starting outfielder.

[a700hitter]

I said that Aviles was oerrated and was hitting way above his head and would come down to earth. Aviles is not an everyday Shortstop. He is better suited as a super sub. DMac is at best a 4A player. Sweeney is good 4th or 5th outfielder if you need a lefy bat. Nava is about the same. Despite his success he is a good sub player who can fill in for an injury sauch as he is doiing now. Right now this team doesn't have a decent everyday starting outfielder.

Using Sweeney as our everyday CFer is ridiculous.

[TexasBosox]

It is hard to see Youk struggle. His time in a Sox uniform is definitely coming to a close. I know they have to play him in hopes he can show other teams out there that he has something left in the tank and is healthy. But he looks like he has nothing left. I am to the point just get what we can for him and eat the majority of his salary. Free up third for Middlebrooks and put Gonzales back at first.

[TexasBosox]

Is Kalish still rehabbing? Time to think about bringing him up to see what he can do. Bring some of the younguns up letting play and provide a spark.

[TexasBosox]

What about Ellsbury when he comes back? Do you even consider taking offers for him

[kapsis21]

Is Kalish still rehabbing? Time to think about bringing him up to see what he can do. Bring some of the younguns up letting play and provide a spark.

 

I am all dor that too. Kalish is raking in AAA right now

[jung]

It is so painfully obvious that the young guys provide a much more cohesive, athletic effort. While baseball is not the most athletic of team sports, maybe that is why younger athletes provide such a spark.

 

They are also more schooled as players in the sense that they have not grown to be somewhat insistent on playing to their own tendencies and their own preferences. Their coaches in AAA kick their asses for playing that way. So the result is also a more cohesive effort than you get when up and down the lineup you have these crusty veterans that may individually be talented but really do not give you a cohesive effort game in and game out.

 

I think in part this is why the Sox subs have done such a good job of replacing the numbers you would expect from the injured regulars. They are not as talented by and large with the exception of guys like WMB but you get a more cohesive team effort.

 

In these games dominated by pitching you have to find ways to push runs across. You are not going to be able to wait for some big gun to come up and hit you a three run bomb. You have to be able to push runners along and push runs across. The Sox do not do a good job of playing ball that way. But when they do, generally it is because guys like Nava or WMB or even Pods who is a veteran but has been spending most of his time of late at the AAA level are filling the holes between the regulars and providing just enough of a cohesive baseball effort.

[Elktonnick]

It is so painfully obvious that the young guys provide a much more cohesive, athletic effort. While baseball is not the most athletic of team sports, maybe that is why younger athletes provide such a spark.

 

They are also more schooled as players in the sense that they have not grown to be somewhat insistent on playing to their own tendencies and their own preferences. Their coaches in AAA kick their asses for playing that way. So the result is also a more cohesive effort than you get when up and down the lineup you have these crusty veterans that may individually be talented but really do not give you a cohesive effort game in and game out.

 

I think in part this is why the Sox subs have done such a good job of replacing the numbers you would expect from the injured regulars. They are not as talented by and large with the exception of guys like WMB but you get a more cohesive team effort.

 

In these games dominated by pitching you have to find ways to push runs across. You are not going to be able to wait for some big gun to come up and hit you a three run bomb. You have to be able to push runners along and push runs across. The Sox do not do a good job of playing ball that way. But when they do, generally it is because guys like Nava or WMB or even Pods who is a veteran but has been spending most of his time of late at the AAA level are filling the holes between the regulars and providing just enough of a cohesive baseball effort.

 

Youklis's latest statement proves he is a cry baby off the field as well as on the field. Rightly or wrongly he clearly is a malcontent. The longer he stays the more toxic the atmosphere.

[jung]

Abraham petitioning this morning for a complete housecleaning down at Fenway.

 

He asks the question "If the Sox lineup included WMB, Lavarnway, Iggy and Kalish would we as fans care more about this team. As part of the question, Abraham suggests that some degree of apathy is setting in amongst fans that are beginning to lose hope.

 

For my part, I am not sure I would be more interested because it is hard for me not to be interested. However I do think I would enjoy the baseball I would be seeing more. I think it would be a better brand of baseball and presuming the Sox will continue to meet teams with good pitching, it would be more of a team designed to compete and push across runs, something it does not do well currently.

[SoxSignatures]

I would enjoy watching the Sox with this lineup:

CF Ellsbury

2B Pedroia

1B Gonzalez

DH Ortiz

3B Middlebrooks

LF Crawford (Maybe? otherwise Sweeney or Ross)

C Lavarnway

RF Kalish

SS Iglesias

[TexasBosox]

Mentioning Lavarnaway brings up another question. Is Salty the answer behind the plate or do bring Lavarnaway up and see if he is the long term solution and if he is, deal Salty. I definitely think you brink up Kalish. The outfield is a mess right now.

[SoxSignatures]

Nava has turned into quite a good player as well, do you keep running him out to see if he is legit or have Kalish take away AB's?

 

The Sox are in a tough spot with Lavarnway. They have a logjam of definite or potential All-Stars at C/1B/DH with Salty, Gonzo and Ortiz. If you trade Salty or let Ortiz walk after this year, now Lavarnway has the pressure to replace those guys as they are all very productive right now. If either Ortiz or Salty were struggling it would be much easier to make the call.

[a700hitter]

Abraham petitioning this morning for a complete housecleaning down at Fenway.

 

He asks the question "If the Sox lineup included WMB, Lavarnway, Iggy and Kalish would we as fans care more about this team. As part of the question, Abraham suggests that some degree of apathy is setting in amongst fans that are beginning to lose hope.

 

For my part, I am not sure I would be more interested because it is hard for me not to be interested. However I do think I would enjoy the baseball I would be seeing more. I think it would be a better brand of baseball and presuming the Sox will continue to meet teams with good pitching, it would be more of a team designed to compete and push across runs, something it does not do well currently.

What's not interesting is not winning. I don't know if bringing those guys up gives us a better chance of winning.

Lavarnway would have to it on the bench, because you can't wreck Salty's trade value at this point. Playing Iggy would allow them to put Aviles in the OF-- an improvement over McDonald. Kalish would be an improvement in RF--Sweeney could be the 4th OFer, and Pods should stick in CF as he is the best of the bunch. I could see that lineup being an improvement.

[TexasBosox]

You bring up a good point about Ortiz being a free agent after this year.

[Elktonnick]

Abraham petitioning this morning for a complete housecleaning down at Fenway.

 

He asks the question "If the Sox lineup included WMB, Lavarnway, Iggy and Kalish would we as fans care more about this team. As part of the question, Abraham suggests that some degree of apathy is setting in amongst fans that are beginning to lose hope.

 

For my part, I am not sure I would be more interested because it is hard for me not to be interested. However I do think I would enjoy the baseball I would be seeing more. I think it would be a better brand of baseball and presuming the Sox will continue to meet teams with good pitching, it would be more of a team designed to compete and push across runs, something it does not do well currently.

 

This is not unexpected. Many of us said more or less the same thing over the winter to much derision. While I am not ready to trade Pedroia some are suggesting that he be dealt as well. This team has the reputation of being spoiled over paid underperforming entitled fat cats. They need a shake up. I don't think Henry has the cajones to do it. Empower their manager and make the moves that should have been made six months ago but weren't Youk should be an immediate move.

[jung]

Well as far as chances of winning are concerned....I think it is pretty clear that WMB does give us a better chance to win than Youk.

 

Of the outfielders we have at our disposal today, if Nava can play today, Nava gives us a better chance to win, particularly if we are talking about Nava vs d-mac in LF. If the choice is Kalish vs Sweeney in RF while I like Sweeney, the Sox might need more pop in the lineup than they have right now. They are not exactly the same type of players at least to me. Given the way things have gone, I think Kalish would be worth a shot. Looks to me that at least at this point, Pods should play Center.

 

I think the next two options are really iffy at this point. Iggy and Aviles are clearly not the same kind of player. If the Sox see this stretch of tough, well pitched low scoring games continuing for some period (which could be true this month) then Iggy would likely help this team have a better chance to win than Aviles. It is in these low scoring games where a missed play or an error or a great defensive play for that matter can really make a big difference that might make it worth a shot....particularly since we are tossing so many guys into the outfield. Mike might be just fine in the outfield if you want his bat and Iggy's glove in the lineup. Mike is not really tearing the cover off the ball right now but I could still maybe see him play a few games in the outfield particularly while still waiting for Ells and CC to come back. So maybe....MAYBE there is a chance for Iggy to contribute.

 

Lavarnway vs Salty....I would say at this point, even with all of the grief that I have given Salty, I think Salty deserves to play out his current approach to plate appearances a little farther before deciding to pull the plug and do something like bring up Lavs.

 

In the first place, everybody has been saying that at least today, Lavs is not a defensive upgrade over Salty. I don't know if he is or not. If he was then that would make for a completely different story for me. In truth, since that disaster of a game for Salty where Cook was injured and Salty looked about as terrible as could be, Salty has been better in the field. There are still things he does very poorly and I have to think some additional really ugly defensive plays are always right around the corner with Salty. But again, nobody is saying that Lavs is better at this point.

 

As for handling pitchers, well I guess Salty is not everybody's favorite catcher. However can we really say with any surety that a young kid that would be a new guy behind the plate would really instill confidence in the pitchers at this point?

 

Now the last week to ten days it has looked like pitchers are starting to adjust to Salty's new approach toward plate appearances and Salty has not been making contact as much. If they have Salty's number at this point and this is what we are going to have for the remainder of the year, then I would say yes to bringing up and playing Lavs. I would be willing to give this a couple weeks before giving up, not because of anything Salty did or did not do last year. I would do it because Salty has opened the door to the possibility that he could become a real HR threat. That is a classic offensive approach for a catcher. You really don't want them on the base paths. A catcher with a low BA but serious power numbers is an asset. My God I cannot believe I am talking about Salty in terms of being an asset but again without any evidence that Lavs would be a defensive upgrade or a preference for the pitchers, I would continue to go with Salty for now and spot Shop against the LH pitchers.

 

 

As I said in a different post, to me there is an element to this that also makes getting more fresh blood in the lineup worth a try. We do seem to get a more cohesive baseball effort with fewer of the "old guard" vets that have guaranteed contracts and tend to play the game the way they want to play it individually when they are in the lineup. That is likely worth something in these close, well pitched games.

 

Clearly we would not be talking about any of this if we were not struggling to win games.

[VA Sox Fan]

Abraham petitioning this morning for a complete housecleaning down at Fenway.

 

He asks the question "If the Sox lineup included WMB, Lavarnway, Iggy and Kalish would we as fans care more about this team. As part of the question, Abraham suggests that some degree of apathy is setting in amongst fans that are beginning to lose hope.

 

For my part, I am not sure I would be more interested because it is hard for me not to be interested. However I do think I would enjoy the baseball I would be seeing more. I think it would be a better brand of baseball and presuming the Sox will continue to meet teams with good pitching, it would be more of a team designed to compete and push across runs, something it does not do well currently.

 

There is also a reader's poll in the Globe asking if the Red Sox should:

 

Blow up the roster or stay the course.

The reader's have voted 79.17% for the blow up and 20.83% to stay the course.

[jacksonianmarch]

If you arent winning, you might as well get some experience for the next wave of players. The problem is, Lavarnway wouldnt get work since Salty is playing well and Iglesias is injured

[Bellhorn04]

There is also a reader's poll in the Globe asking if the Red Sox should:

 

Blow up the roster or stay the course.

The reader's have voted 79.17% for the blow up and 20.83% to stay the course.

 

I think it's too early to toss in the towel. But the thing about trading Youkilis is, it has nothing to do with tossing in the towel. It's about WMB being a better player right now.

 

We'll be seeing Kalish in RF very soon.

 

The transition is already underway.

[Elktonnick]

I think it's too early to toss in the towel. But the thing about trading Youkilis is, it has nothing to do with tossing in the towel. It's about WMB being a better player right now.

 

We'll be seeing Kalish in RF very soon.

 

The transition is already underway.

 

There is considerable buzz building around Abraham's column, all very positive. Cafardo also made a comment about Ellsbury deliberate rehab efforts. The implication is that Ellsbury is in no hurry to return. It gets one to wonder about how fragile Ellsbuty is. Is he someone who will always be injury prone.

[SoxSport]

There is considerable buzz building around Abraham's column' date=' all very positive. Cafardo also made a comment about Ellsbury deliberate rehab efforts. The implication is that Ellsbury is in no hurry to return. It gets one to wonder about how fragile Ellsbuty is. Is he someone who will always be injury prone.[/quote']

 

 

I've read that Ellsbury is following a rehab schedule prescribed by the Red Sox. Funny how perceptions can be different. The guy to wonder about is Crawford. He goes from one little ache and pain to another.

 

Historically, the FO has been very conservative about bringing players back too soon.

More than likely, they are dictating the rehab schedule.

[SoxSport]

I think it's too early to toss in the towel. But the thing about trading Youkilis is, it has nothing to do with tossing in the towel. It's about WMB being a better player right now.

 

We'll be seeing Kalish in RF very soon.

 

The transition is already underway.

 

Hopefully, we'll see Kalish soon. He was ready 2 years ago when Drew was under contract.

[kapsis21]

Hopefully' date=' we'll see Kalish soon. He was ready 2 years ago when Drew was under contract.[/quote']

 

bring him up already..!!