Theo Is Gone - Boston Herald

[a700hitter]

No. That's why I don't think that they are canning Theo.

 

If he leaves its because there's a better job. That's my guess.

If they wanted to keep him, he'd be working on an extension with the Red Sox. You need to wake up. Ownership wants a change. Top organizations don't let top talent walk to competitors. They just don't. They step up and do what it takes to retain the talent.

 

Iortiz, you may need to chime in on this. E1 is still not getting it. :dunno:

[example1]

You are reading tonight's posts the way that I intended them. Unfortunately' date=' you read my posts about accountability the wrong way. I had always wished that Theo had succeeded. I loved all of the off season moves, and I thought this would be the year. I was wrong. Theo was wrong, and there were other problems in his organization that weren't obvious to the fans until it was over. Iortiz weren't demanding his head. We were trying to inform you all that in a big business setting he would bear the responsibility and that businesses that have a disaster usually change the captain. We were right. The owners made the sound business decision here. No one else, the press nor the fans dictated this decision. It was just business. Like you said earlier, personally they like Theo, but business is business. I was right. I take no joy from it, and I wished things had worked out better in the end for Theo in Boston.[/quote']

 

To say that Theo hasn't succeeded is absurd. He won two world series. Imagine what a Cubs fan would say if you said "in 2022 you're going to fire Theo after he wins 2 World Series for your club because he wasn't successful". They would think you're crazy. The Sox were the Cubs 10 years ago and they would trade anything for the type of "unsuccess" Theo has had.

 

Second, I'm still waiting on any confirmation that the Sox are interested in having Theo leave.

 

It's a very natural thing to let someone interview for a promotion. Yes, they could keep it from happening, but just because they don't doesn't mean they want it to happen. Two different things.

[Gringo]

Tip of the hat to Theo for doing his part. But it was probably time to go, along with Tito. Too bad we can't clear out all the scrubs wasting space in the locker room.

 

Good luck on the North Side, Theo.

[example1]

If they wanted to keep him, he'd be working on an extension with the Red Sox. You need to wake up. Ownership wants a change. Top organizations don't let top talent walk to competitors. They just don't. They step up and do what it takes to retain the talent.

 

Iortiz, you may need to chime in on this. E1 is still not getting it. :dunno:

 

Why wouldn't ownership just fire him if they don't want him around?

 

I don't contest that they are broken up about this, but I'm not convinced that they would get rid of Theo all things being equal just to replace him with his longtime protege, in the midst of a managerial search.

[SCM33]

Blockbuster on #RedSox coming tomorrow in Globe and on Boston.com and BostonGlobe.com. Don't miss it.

 

http://twitter.com/#!/mattpep15/status/123951436311691265

 

Christ. Does Theo leaving really equal a "blockbuster"? How about a blockbuster trade of Theo for Castro or something? That would make me happy.

 

To me, a blockbuster would be something like "Henry putting the team up for sale". Weird.

 

John Lackey is going with him.

 

Carlos Zambrano is coming to Boston.

 

You heard it here.

[example1]

John Lackey is going with him.

 

Carlos Zambrano is coming to Boston.

 

You heard it here.

 

Seems somewhat unlikely, but maybe. Zambrano is a head case and not a very good pitcher.

[SCM33]

Seems somewhat unlikely' date=' but maybe. Zambrano is a head case and not a very good pitcher.[/quote']

 

I didnt say I wanted Zambrano, I just think it makes sense.

 

Theo takes his s***** signing with him to Chicago and we get Zambrano (who only has a year left on his deal). Zambrano will never pitch in Chicago again, and Ive been saying Lackey wont pitch in Boston again since the season ended.

 

If that deal happens, pretty much everything I predicted that would happen...would have happened thus far. Tito, Theo, Lackey.....

 

The only pieces that are missing from my prediction are Varitek, Wakefield and Youkilis and 2 out of those 3 are almost certainly gone if that deal in fact occurs. For some reason I think that those pieces (Lackey and Zambrano) qualify as a "blockbuster".

[a700hitter]

Why wouldn't ownership just fire him if they don't want him around?

 

I don't contest that they are broken up about this, but I'm not convinced that they would get rid of Theo all things being equal just to replace him with his longtime protege, in the midst of a managerial search.

For the same reason that they let Tito "part ways" with them and for the same reason that in my 25 years working in the Law Department of a big company that I have seen a couple of hundred memos saying that an executive decided to retire or when not retirement age "decided to pursue other endeavors" aka they were all fired. Am I being conspiratorial? No, I am not, because in everyone of those cases a severance package was involved. I work on that stuff. Our severance plan, requires an involuntary termination. To the general work population and to the press and the outside world, there has been an amicable split-- a "parting of the ways". Your not really a business guy, so you don't see this stuff. I have. Iortiz has. They want Theo out, but they don't want to hang this around his neck or lynch him publicly. They will stick to the press releases and public statements, but trust me, he got fired. Theo told Buck the other night that he'd tell him some stuff if they had a beer after the game.

 

I think the story had to do with Casey Stengel. When he "parted ways" with the Yankees, they had a cover story that Casey had decided to retire. Casey was never one to pull a punch. When asked about it, he said: retired? Hell, I was fired. He ad just turned 70 when he got fired. The rumor was that it was due to his age. Casey said, "I'll never make the mistake of turning 70 again."

 

Casey got fired when a vastly undermanned and outgunned Pirate team beat the Yankees in the 1960 World Series.

[example1]

For the same reason that they let Tito "part ways" with them and for the same reason that in my 25 years working in the Law Department of a big company that I have seen a couple of hundred memos saying that an executive decided to retire or when not retirement age "decided to pursue other endeavors" aka they were all fired. Am I being conspiratorial? No, I am not, because in everyone of those cases a severance package was involved. I work on that stuff. Our severance plan, requires an involuntary termination. To the general work population and to the press and the outside world, there has been an amicable split-- a "parting of the ways". Your not really a business guy, so you don't see this stuff. I have. Iortiz has. They want Theo out, but they don't want to hang this around his neck or lynch him publicly. They will stick to the press releases and public statements, but trust me, he got fired. Theo told Buck the other night that he'd tell him some stuff if they had a beer after the game.

 

I think the story had to do with Casey Stengel. When he "parted ways" with the Yankees, they had a cover story that Casey had decided to retire. Casey was never one to pull a punch. When asked about it, he said: retired? Hell, I was fired. He ad just turned 70 when he got fired. The rumor was that it was due to his age. Casey said, "I'll never make the mistake of turning 70 again."

 

Casey got fired when a vastly undermanned and outgunned Pirate team beat the Yankees in the 1960 World Series.

 

Maybe you're right.

 

You don't know any of the backstory, so you're speculating, but your reasoning is sound. We will see how it all plays out.

 

If they move on to someone who is pretty different (i.w., not Cherrington) then I will be convinced.

 

That said, I still wont think it's the right decision.

[a700hitter]

Maybe you're right.

 

You don't know any of the backstory, so you're speculating, but your reasoning is sound. We will see how it all plays out.

 

If they move on to someone who is pretty different (i.w., not Cherrington) then I will be convinced.

 

That said, I still wont think it's the right decision.

I've been swimming with the business sharks for 25 years, helping them navigate the waters. I know how this stuff goes down. I don't know the particulars of what went wrong and who wants him out. I don't know if it was JH's sole decision or an organizational vote, but this is the way business organizations act when they decide to move on. If they thought Theo was still the guy to bring them back to the promised land, they'd never let him walk. Business organizations don't let their top talent walk to a competitor and if they insist on walking, they have to sign a non-compete agreement. They wish Theo no ill, but they are not looking out for his well being with this decision. This a decision driven by their desire to take the organization forward with a different GM. I know that you feel bad about this. It's understandable. You obviously admired Theo's approach a great deal, and he did many great things, but business is heartless. There's no sentimentality. I can't guarantee that the next guy will be as good or better, but the time had come to move forward from Theo.

[jung]

Yes they could. What difference does the blow-hard media and the "what have you done for me lately" crowd have on this situation? There's a bunch of reactionary idiots out there screaming for something, anything, to take their personal pain away. Meanwhile, the owners continue to roll in the dough, the Yankees and Phillies are out of the playoffs, and the team is still loaded moving forward.

 

If Theo were promoted there might be some confusion and uproar, but is anyone going to quit paying attention to the team? Ha!

 

The caveat here is that the Sox have built a very complicated business model. It has worked very well up to this point but it is not what it used to be and while many sports franchises have moved in the direction of the Sox, I don't believe many or maybe even any has been as focused as the Sox have been in that regard.

 

You can't say on the one hand that the Sox have made all of these FA and other moves to placate the "entitled" fan base and then say that the Sox ownership is as dismissive as you suggest.

 

The Sox are already more spin and sizzle than substance anyway. They just happened to get caught at it which they did not expect....nor did we.

 

Having the "boy wonder GM" was as useful to the Sox to a point as paying a $60M posting fee to get dice-k and then having his interpreter there in the dugout was. That was so much BS. Did dice-K ever once look like a pitcher worth $60M up front plus his contract plus whatever other concessions they had to make while making PR hay out of them at the same time? Heck, the Sox treated getting dice-k as if they had found the dalai-lamma's nephew in some Tibetan temple and discovered that "Gosh golly gee, the kid has a hell of a fastball"!

 

Again the Sox have built a very complicated business model for a professional sports franchise. It will be very interesting to see what they do next but I do not believe that they are anywhere near as dismissive of the Sox fan base (if you mean fan base to be paying customers that buy tickets or player duplicate jersey's) as you think they are. Past owners have been fairly dismissive but I do not believe this bunch to be, not watching how they react to everything, the way they allow no opportunity to pass without spinning it, the way they have regularly picked sizzle over substance.

 

I think they could keep Theo here if they announced that they were going to allow him to interpret his marching orders as he saw fit and let the cards fall where they may which would be the same thing as falling on their sword for the performance of the last couple years and letting Theo off the hook. I for one would not believe that one but enough folks might believe it to make a difference.

[example1]

I've been swimming with the business sharks for 25 years' date=' helping them navigate the waters. I know how this stuff goes down. I don't know the particulars of what went wrong and who wants him out. I don't know if it was JH's sole decision or an organizational vote, but this is the way business organizations act when they decide to move on. If they thought Theo was still the guy to bring them back to the promised land, they'd never let him walk. Business organizations don't let their top talent walk to a competitor and if they insist on walking, they have to sign a non-compete agreement. They wish Theo no ill, but they are not looking out for his well being with this decision. This a decision driven by their desire to take the organization forward with a different GM. I know that you feel bad about this. It's understandable. You obviously admired Theo's approach a great deal, and he did many great things, but business is heartless. There's no sentimentality. I can't guarantee that the next guy will be as good or better, but the time had come to move forward from Theo.[/quote']

 

 

I give little weight to your "swimming with the business sharks" experience as having any baring on this situation. You are writing about this as if the Sox are kicking him to the curb, yet everyone else is talking about Theo deciding to take a better job in Chicago. He's going to get a lot more money. He's going to have Lucchino's job equivalent.

 

If the Sox wouldn't offer him a president position and forced him to stay as GM, why would he stay? I still think you're too black and white about this and am well aware that you have no inside sources.

 

I appreciate your attempt at a gentle tone and your attempt to be nice.

 

 

Schilling didn't say he was forced out. Nomar didn't say he was forced out. Edes didn't say he was forced out.

 

He's going to get a lot more money. I would take the job too.

[example1]

The caveat here is that the Sox have built a very complicated business model. It has worked very well up to this point but it is not what it used to be and while many sports franchises have moved in the direction of the Sox, I don't believe many or maybe even any has been as focused as the Sox have been in that regard.

 

You can't say on the one hand that the Sox have made all of these FA and other moves to placate the "entitled" fan base and then say that the Sox ownership is as dismissive as you suggest.

 

The Sox are already more spin and sizzle than substance anyway. They just happened to get caught at it which they did not expect....nor did we.

 

Having the "boy wonder GM" was as useful to the Sox to a point as paying a $60M posting fee to get dice-k and then having his interpreter there in the dugout was. That was so much BS. Did dice-K ever once look like a pitcher worth $60M up front plus his contract plus whatever other concessions they had to make while making PR hay out of them at the same time? Heck, the Sox treated getting dice-k as if they had found the dalai-lamma's nephew in some Tibetan temple and discovered that "Gosh golly gee, the kid has a hell of a fastball"!

 

Again the Sox have built a very complicated business model for a professional sports franchise. It will be very interesting to see what they do next but I do not believe that they are anywhere near as dismissive of the Sox fan base (if you mean fan base to be paying customers that buy tickets or player duplicate jersey's) as you think they are. Past owners have been fairly dismissive but I do not believe this bunch to be, not watching how they react to everything, the way they allow no opportunity to pass without spinning it, the way they have regularly picked sizzle over substance.

 

I think they could keep Theo here if they announced that they were going to allow him to interpret his marching orders as he saw fit and let the cards fall where they may which would be the same thing as falling on their sword for the performance of the last couple years and letting Theo off the hook. I for one would not believe that one but enough folks might believe it to make a difference.

 

I think Theo wanted to be dismissive of fan opinion and, for the most part, was. The owners were not as dismissive and did many things (and told him to do many things) that were meant first and foremost to placate the fans, while not hurting their legitimacy in terms of putting a winning team on the field.

 

Last year, when they didn't make the playoffs (Theo's "bridge year") Werner went on WEEI and said that the Sox were going to make big splashes and sign a big FA and make a significant trade. Literally those words.

 

Next, they got Gonzalez and Crawford.

 

Even blowhards like Callahan (D&C) think that Crawford was completely an ownership decision to put butts in the seats. It worked.

 

Theo wouldn't be able to spend 51m of Henry's money for NOTHING for Dice-K, without Henry's strong approval.

 

When big deals went down, who was it that was flying across the country in his private plane and tweeting when it didn't work out? Henry.

 

I like Henry, I think he's a good owner. I just think its foolish to put all of the FA blame on Theo when he stated clearly for his first few years his preference to NOT go after big FAs.

 

Whatever though. What will be, will be.

[example1]

Here's the article... it's coming out now. Haven't read it yet.

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2011/10/12/red_sox_unity_dedication_dissolved_during_epic_late_season_collapse/?page=2

[example1]

"As Hurricane Irene barreled toward Boston in late August, management proposed moving up the Sunday finale of a weekend series against Oakland so the teams could play a day-night doubleheader either Friday, Aug. 26, or Saturday, Aug. 27. The reasoning seemed sound: the teams would avoid a Sunday rainout and the dilemma of finding a mutual makeup date for teams separated by 2,700 miles.

 

 

But numerous Sox players angrily protested. They returned early that Friday from Texas after a demanding stretch in which they had played 14 of 17 games on the road, with additional stops in Minneapolis, Seattle, and Kansas City. The players accused management of caring more about making money than winning, which marked the first time the team’s top executives sensed serious trouble brewing in the clubhouse."

 

And, are you f***ing kidding me:

 

"As it turned out, the Sox swept the Saturday doubleheader, but that stormy day marked the beginning of the end for the 2011 team. It was the last time the team would win two games in a row. After getting two days off, the Sox spent the rest of the season playing uninspired, subpar baseball, losing 21 of their final 29 games.

 

Sox owners soon suspected the team’s poor play was related to lingering resentment over the scheduling dispute, sources said. The owners responded by giving all the players $300 headphones and inviting them to enjoy a players-only night on principal owner John W. Henry’s yacht after they returned from a road trip Sept. 11.

 

What a bunch of pussy babies. Jesus. $300 headphones

[example1]

"Ownership was divided over Epstein’s push to acquire Crawford as a free agent, sources said. At least one top executive believed Crawford’s skills as a speedy lefthanded-hitting outfielder seemed to duplicate Ellsbury’s. But the owners ultimately agreed to gamble $142 million over seven years on Crawford - a lost wager to date.

 

The owners also indicated in postseason remarks they were generally unaware of how deeply damaged the Sox had become until after the season. They denied being distracted by their expanding sports conglomerate - from the Sox and NESN to Roush Fenway Racing and the Liverpool Football Club - but they professed to have no knowledge about players drinking during games, among other issues."

 

--This was a report by Hohler, Abraham and Cafardo. The Globe's recokoning piece and probably the blockbuster that was promised.

 

I'm surprised that Theo pushed so hard for Crawford. He was unlikely to produce what he was being paid and he doesn't fit into the way the Sox tend to construct their teams.

[jacksonianmarch]

5yrs $15 mil for a title higher than GM

[example1]

5yrs $15 mil for a title higher than GM

 

I can't blame him at all for leaving.

 

I never thought I would say it, but the Cubs are apparently a more functional club than the Sox.

[Gringo]

"Ownership was divided over Epstein’s push to acquire Crawford as a free agent, sources said. At least one top executive believed Crawford’s skills as a speedy lefthanded-hitting outfielder seemed to duplicate Ellsbury’s. But the owners ultimately agreed to gamble $142 million over seven years on Crawford - a lost wager to date.

 

The owners also indicated in postseason remarks they were generally unaware of how deeply damaged the Sox had become until after the season. They denied being distracted by their expanding sports conglomerate - from the Sox and NESN to Roush Fenway Racing and the Liverpool Football Club - but they professed to have no knowledge about players drinking during games, among other issues."

 

--This was a report by Hohler, Abraham and Cafardo. The Globe's recokoning piece and probably the blockbuster that was promised.

 

I'm surprised that Theo pushed so hard for Crawford. He was unlikely to produce what he was being paid and he doesn't fit into the way the Sox tend to construct their teams.

 

I think half their reasoning was to take him away from a division rival. He'd burn us on the base path all the time. Weak justification for the kind of deal he got, though.

[Dojji]

I could see a Chicago vs. Boston WS that just might be epic. Anyways, sad to see Theo go, I think it would be better if he'd stayed, I'm sure there's a bunch of people like a700 and iortiz who'll drink to this.

 

I just hope they get a good replacement. They should seriously try and get Terry Ryan out of retirement, he built a powerhouse with a 50 million dollar payroll, imagine what he could build with about a hundred more million.... Just dreaming.

 

Never seems to work that way in real life though. Give a man more money, you also give him more expectations, and he takes bigger risks to hurry things along. The results can wind up a lot worse than the original.

[Gringo]

That said, I think Crawford can still come good. Maybe with a season here under his belt, a new regime in, etc., will take some of the spotlight off of him, and he'll relax more. Next year will tell the tale, though. If he sucks again, he's gonna suck the rest of the way through his contract.

[Dojji]

I think half their reasoning was to take him away from a division rival. He'd burn us on the base path all the time. Weak justification for the kind of deal he got' date=' though.[/quote']

 

I dunno, it worked really well when we did it with Julio Lugo!

[SoxSport]

He's getting 5 years and $15 million--and a promotion. For s***ing the bed in Boston the last 3 years.

 

He's luckier than Lucky.

[Cocos Disciples]

Thanks for playing a huge role in the best era in Red Sox history, Theo. Best of luck in Chicago.

 

Now I don't have a connection to the FO. Brb, gonna go get chummy with Ben Cherington.

[a700hitter]

I give little weight to your "swimming with the business sharks" experience as having any baring on this situation. You are writing about this as if the Sox are kicking him to the curb, yet everyone else is talking about Theo deciding to take a better job in Chicago. He's going to get a lot more money. He's going to have Lucchino's job equivalent.

 

If the Sox wouldn't offer him a president position and forced him to stay as GM, why would he stay? I still think you're too black and white about this and am well aware that you have no inside sources.

 

I appreciate your attempt at a gentle tone and your attempt to be nice.

 

 

Schilling didn't say he was forced out. Nomar didn't say he was forced out. Edes didn't say he was forced out.

 

He's going to get a lot more money. I would take the job too.

Once he's officially gone, you had better prepare for the knives to come out in the press. The Boston Red Sox spin machine will kick into gear and Theo will be blamed for all sorts of things. It's the Boston way. Stab them in the back after they walk out the door.

 

All big business is the same when it comes to parting ways. The considerations by both parties are very similar across all industries. I have seen bigger fish than Theo get canned. It is almost always the same scenario. The public story is never that they've been fired. Here, they definitely didn't want to say that they would fire him, because that would negate the opportunity to ask the Cubs for compensation. They are saying that it could be a pretty good prospect. It's a shame, because we know how Theo coveted prospects.

[DwightFright]

5yrs $15 mil for a title higher than GM

 

Why isn't Cashman taking the heat for the Yankees failures? I wonder if the Brothers just swallow hard and re-sign him cuz they know the Sox would scoop him up in a heartbeat.

[jung]

Why isn't Cashman taking the heat for the Yankees failures?

 

Well for one thing the Yankees made the post season. While we can point to their failure there with some satisfaction I do think that from a performance of the GM perspective, making the show is a major benchmark. While we may not understand it I do think that the GM is under more of a spotlight over the issue of constructing a team that makes or does not make the post season and the players and coaches take more of the spotlight around the topic of winning in the post season.

 

Nobody ever thinks they have enough pitching going into the post season and as a result that is probably the place where GM's get more scrutiny regarding post season play. Did they or did they not bring in an arm or two for purposes of shoring up the post season pitching staff? But that is still taken in light of the fact that the team they constructed did get there.

[DwightFright]

Well for one thing the Yankees made the post season. While we can point to their failure there with some satisfaction I do think that from a performance of the GM perspective, making the show is a major benchmark. While we may not understand it I do think that the GM is under more of a spotlight over the issue of constructing a team that makes or does not make the post season and the players and coaches take more of the spotlight around the topic of winning in the post season.

 

Nobody ever thinks they have enough pitching going into the post season and as a result that is probably the place where GM's get more scrutiny regarding post season play. Did they or did they not bring in an arm or two for purposes of shoring up the post season pitching staff? But that is still taken in light of the fact that the team they constructed did get there.

 

As we all know, Yankee Nation expects to win the WS every year. Making the postseason isn't the goal. The Yanks have one title in the past 10 years of spending mega millions. Girardi may have done a good job making the postseason with the roster he was given, but Cashman assembles the roster that has usually come up short. Nevertheless, his PR spin is good enough to get resigned without much criticism.

[VA Sox Fan]

Epstein deal with Cubs close to completion

 

Posted by Peter Abraham, Globe Staff October 12, 2011 11:05 AM

 

Theo Epstein appears headed to the Cubs to become their team president. The deal would be for five years and approximately $20 million according to reports.

 

Until it's official, it's not official. Let's not forget, Theo got his job in the first place only after Billy Beane decided to come to the Red Sox then changed his mind.

 

But all indications are this process should be settled in 24-48 hours.

 

Do not expect lavish compensation from the Cubs or forcing them to take on a bad contract. Epstein does have a year remaining on his contract but is taking a better job. Precedent suggests the Red Sox get a few prospects.

 

Do expect Ben Cherington to swiftly be named GM of the Red Sox. He clearly has the confidence of the ownership group, the experience and the institutional knowledge to handle the job.

 

From that point, Cherington would lead the search for a new manager. Clearly, given what we now know of this team, they need a manager who can corral the wayward players on the roster into a cohesive unit. Or at least get them to pay attention to the game.

 

What will be most interesting is whether John Henry steps up at some point to address this situation beyond Twitter or the team's flagship radio station. The perception is that the Red Sox are a team in chaos — which isn't necessarily the case — and only Henry can change that. To date, he has not.

 

Finally, it speaks poorly of the prominent players on the roster that only Dustin Pedroia and David Ortiz to a lesser extent have been willing to step up and accept some responsibility for what happened. Extraordinary measures were taken to try and get Josh Beckett, Jon Lester, Tim Wakefield, John Lackey, Jason Varitek and others to give their sides of this and all have so far refused.

 

The players likely think that this can all be swept away with a few "the past is the past" comments in spring training and vague promises to work hard. But in hearing from fans, it's not going to be that easy. This has become a very unlikable team.

 

A big part of Cherington's task this winter may be changing the personality of this team to whatever degree he can, both for baseball and business reasons.

 

As a first-time GM, he is inheriting a huge challenge.

[SoxSport]

Why isn't Cashman taking the heat for the Yankees failures? I wonder if the Brothers just swallow hard and re-sign him cuz they know the Sox would scoop him up in a heartbeat.

 

Cash lucked out with his starting pitching this year, and Granderson has become Grandyman.

The Yankees are in more trouble than the Sox long term--a lot of age in their top players.

And their pitching came down to earth in the playoffs, as many suspected it would.

Cash has more money to spend in NY, so it's hard to judge him.

 

The Sox laid the fart heard around world in September, and the repercussions were inevitable.

 

A prediction: the other team elevated by the media this year is the NFL's Eagles.

So far a failure. It's still early, but Andy Reid's head is on the chopping block.