2011-2012 Offseason Thread

[iortiz]

And just about every prospect ranking had Montero well above Lavarnway or Kalish. He was a top 5 prospect in 2011 according to just about every prospect evaluator I can find.

 

As for him being still a promise, how established is Pineda? One year under his belt?

 

This deal was straight up, wasn't it?. IMO they needed pitching, pitching, pitching, maybe more than us. They do not need more bats. Now, they are a quite much balanced team. We? I wouldn't call that way thus far. They got Martin. Montero would have taken a back up role next year. Will they regret about this in the future? As I said, Maybe yes, maybe no, regardless they always have a broad wallet.

[a700hitter]

Not too long ago there were many on this board saying they would never trade a superstar position player for a superstar pitcher. I disagreed' date=' but the argument is a solid one. The Yankees needed pitching more than they needed hitting, but not by a lot. Montero is an elite bat at the most offensively weak position in the game. This isn't all bad.[/quote']Montero is not a superstar yet. He still has rookie status, and he has no position.

[Rdsxmbnt]

And just about every prospect ranking had Montero well above Lavarnway or Kalish. He was a top 5 prospect in 2011 according to just about every prospect evaluator I can find.

 

As for him being still a promise, how established is Pineda? One year under his belt?

 

Kalish or Lavarnway are no where near Montero's level. I'm glad the Yankees got rid of Montero, I think pitchers are too volatile to really to bet on for a guy like Montero who could easily be a franchise hitter for a very long time. Pineda looks good no doubt but there are so many examples of pitchers like that flaming out (granted there are hitters too but I'd say its less likely).

[example1]

Montero is not a superstar yet. He still has rookie status' date=' and he has no position.[/quote']

 

"Has no position". I don't hear people using the same language about Lavarnway. Neither of them are Yadier Molina, but 30 HR potential in a position where most teams get virtually nothing is nothing to sneeze at.

 

And Pineda is still a 22 year old starting pitcher now going to the toughest division in the game. This isn't a bad move by any stretch, but it is much closer to trading equal talent for equal talent than it is the Yankees getting an ace and giving up nothing significant.

[iortiz]

And just about every prospect ranking had Montero well above Lavarnway or Kalish. He was a top 5 prospect in 2011 according to just about every prospect evaluator I can find.

 

As for him being still a promise, how established is Pineda? One year under his belt?

 

BTW I never argued that Kalish or Lavernway were better ranked than Montero.

[iortiz]

"Has no position". I don't hear people using the same language about Lavarnway. Neither of them are Yadier Molina, but 30 HR potential in a position where most teams get virtually nothing is nothing to sneeze at.

 

And Pineda is still a 22 year old starting pitcher now going to the toughest division in the game. This isn't a bad move by any stretch, but it is much closer to trading equal talent for equal talent than it is the Yankees getting an ace and giving up nothing significant.

 

Even better E1.

[example1]

Kalish or Lavarnway are no where near Montero's level. I'm glad the Yankees got rid of Montero' date=' I think pitchers are too volatile to really to bet on for a guy like Montero who could easily be a franchise hitter for a very long time. Pineda looks good no doubt but there are so many examples of pitchers like that flaming out (granted there are hitters too but I'd say its less likely).[/quote']

 

Lavarnway's last few sesons have been pretty damn impressive. It's their difference in age that seems to set Montero apart.

 

Lavarnway's minor league slash line has stayed consisent or improved over the years:

.284/.367/.521/.897

 

Montero's: .308/.366/.501/.867

 

He's just quite a bit younger and has been advanced for his age.

 

Both have the potential to provide real offensive force soon.

[example1]

BTW I never argued that Kalish or Lavernway were better ranked than Montero.

 

No you didn't, you just said you would trade either for Pineda, which seems pretty obvious, particularly if a team needed pitching more than hitting. The Mariners, on the other hand, probably feel pretty damn good that they just got arguibly the best offensive prospect not-named Harper and kept Felix Hernandez in the process.

[a700hitter]

"Has no position". I don't hear people using the same language about Lavarnway. Neither of them are Yadier Molina, but 30 HR potential in a position where most teams get virtually nothing is nothing to sneeze at.

 

And Pineda is still a 22 year old starting pitcher now going to the toughest division in the game. This isn't a bad move by any stretch, but it is much closer to trading equal talent for equal talent than it is the Yankees getting an ace and giving up nothing significant.

You are getting off the point of the post that I replied to. You brought up the philosophy of not trading a superstar position player for a pitcher and compared it to the Montero deal. I don't see the application. Montero is a prospect, not a superstar position player. I didn't bring Lavarnway into the discussion.

[a700hitter]

"Has no position". I don't hear people using the same language about Lavarnway. Neither of them are Yadier Molina, but 30 HR potential in a position where most teams get virtually nothing is nothing to sneeze at.

 

And Pineda is still a 22 year old starting pitcher now going to the toughest division in the game. This isn't a bad move by any stretch, but it is much closer to trading equal talent for equal talent than it is the Yankees getting an ace and giving up nothing significant.

Pineda is a huge kid who can throw 96-97 consistently. He's a big horse and he's only 22, and he already made an All Star team. I think the kid has quite a future.

[Rdsxmbnt]

Lavarnway's last few sesons have been pretty damn impressive. It's their difference in age that seems to set Montero apart.

 

Lavarnway's minor league slash line has stayed consisent or improved over the years:

.284/.367/.521/.897

 

Montero's: .308/.366/.501/.867

 

He's just quite a bit younger and has been advanced for his age.

 

Both have the potential to provide real offensive force soon.

 

Oh believe me im a huge Lavarnway fan but realistically (and I know you obviously know this), the age is huge in comparing value. Guys with Montero's track record at his age can be potential superstars. Lavarnway I think will be a solid hitter but the ceiling is probably much lower.

[iortiz]

No you didn't' date=' you just said you would trade either for Pineda, which seems pretty obvious, particularly if a team needed pitching more than hitting. The Mariners, on the other hand, probably feel pretty damn good that they just got arguibly the best offensive prospect not-named Harper and kept Felix Hernandez in the process.[/quote']

 

here we go again....

 

It was just an isolated comment. On the other hand Would they trade Pineda for Kalish/Lav, straight up? (of course before knowing that Montero was available) My logic would said no, but I wouldn't discard the possibility.

 

Both Mariners and Yankees feel pretty damn good. You bet. Both filled their holes.

[example1]

You are getting off the point of the post that I replied to. You brought up the philosophy of not trading a superstar position player for a pitcher and compared it to the Montero deal. I don't see the application. Montero is a prospect' date=' not a superstar position player. I didn't bring Lavarnway into the discussion.[/quote']

 

They are both lottery tickets. Both have the stuff to be yearly all-star caliber players. Highlighting the acquisition of one without really mentioning the loss of the other seems to miss the fact that this was a trade, not a FA signing. And Montero isn't years away... he was ready to start for them next season and got lots of ABs at the end of 2011.

 

In Montero's brief call up last year he produced like many expect he should be able to moving forward. At 21 years old in a playoff stretch he went .328/.406/.590/.996, with 4 HR and 12 RBI in 18 games. That's a 162 game line of 36 HR and 108 RBI.

 

Obviously short stats need to be accounted for, but few doubt that he will be capable of producing similar numbers once he has hit his stride. Even if he has to move to 1B or DH you're looking at Joey Votto/Adrian Gonzalez type offensive skills.

 

The move looks pretty good for both sides to me.

[example1]

here we go again....

 

It was just an isolated comment. On the other hand Would they trade Pineda for Kalish, straight up? (of course before knowing that Montero was available) My logic would said no, but I wouldn't discard the possibility.

 

Both Mariners and Yankees feel pretty damn good. You bet. Both filled their holes.

 

Absolutely. Both filled their holes.

 

No, the Mariners wouldn't have traded Pineda for Kalish straight up. Kalish is recovering from surgery and has never been considered a top 5 prospect. Montero is 22 years old and might be able to stay at catcher. The Mariners need a middle of the order bat more than anything. Now they have one who is still a first year rookie.

 

Kalish is a very good prospect and should be able to fill a hole the Sox have, but he's not a top five prospect.

[iortiz]

They are both lottery tickets. Both have the stuff to be yearly all-star caliber players. Highlighting the acquisition of one without really mentioning the loss of the other seems to miss the fact that this was a trade, not a FA signing. And Montero isn't years away... he was ready to start for them next season and got lots of ABs at the end of 2011.

 

In Montero's brief call up last year he produced like many expect he should be able to moving forward. At 21 years old in a playoff stretch he went .328/.406/.590/.996, with 4 HR and 12 RBI in 18 games. That's a 162 game line of 36 HR and 108 RBI.

 

Obviously short stats need to be accounted for, but few doubt that he will be capable of producing similar numbers once he has hit his stride. Even if he has to move to 1B or DH you're looking at Joey Votto/Adrian Gonzalez type offensive skills.

 

The move looks pretty good for both sides to me.

 

Bingo.

[example1]

Pineda is a huge kid who can throw 96-97 consistently. He's a big horse and he's only 22' date=' and he already made an All Star team. I think the kid has quite a future.[/quote']

 

There can be no doubt about this a700.

 

Honestly, if Montero had stayed in the minors last year I probably would be much more distraught about this deal. Having watched a number of his games and watching how good he is at the plate, I think he has quite a future too. He had that calm demeanor and ability to lay off pitches that the best hitters have... it reminded me of Manny Ramirez.

 

I was already dreading it when he came to the plate because he's much more advanced than most MLB hitters, at such a young age.

 

Honestly, if the Sox are going to have a vulnerable pitching staff, I would much rather the Yankees lose their big offensive pieces, even if only for their head-to-head matchups. The Sox can handle any pitcher in the game. Now, how that plays out over the course of the season and with Pineda facing all the other teams is a different matter. He will rip through weak lineups, no doubt.

[iortiz]

Absolutely. Both filled their holes.

 

No, the Mariners wouldn't have traded Pineda for Kalish straight up. Kalish is recovering from surgery and has never been considered a top 5 prospect. Montero is 22 years old and might be able to stay at catcher. The Mariners need a middle of the order bat more than anything. Now they have one who is still a first year rookie.

 

Kalish is a very good prospect and should be able to fill a hole the Sox have, but he's not a top five prospect.

 

Call me crazy but IMO Kalish is our best prospect, nothing to ask to Montero. The damn thing is that he is not healthy. I'm very excited to see him next season.

[a700hitter]

There can be no doubt about this a700.

 

Honestly, if Montero had stayed in the minors last year I probably would be much more distraught about this deal. Having watched a number of his games and watching how good he is at the plate, I think he has quite a future too. He had that calm demeanor and ability to lay off pitches that the best hitters have... it reminded me of Manny Ramirez.

 

I was already dreading it when he came to the plate because he's much more advanced than most MLB hitters, at such a young age.

 

Honestly, if the Sox are going to have a vulnerable pitching staff, I would much rather the Yankees lose their big offensive pieces, even if only for their head-to-head matchups. The Sox can handle any pitcher in the game. Now, how that plays out over the course of the season and with Pineda facing all the other teams is a different matter. He will rip through weak lineups, no doubt.

I'm hoping that montero hits .360 next year, but that will not change the fact that the Yankees just filled a hole for many years to come with a kid with a lot of upward potential. It pisses me off much more than the Kuroda signing.

[example1]

Twitter:

Brian Cashman stressed, "huge risk" in deal w/Mariners. "I gave up a ton (for Pineda). To me, Montero is Mike PIazza. He's Miguel Cabrera."

 

They better get a damn good pitcher back if they are giving up a Piazza or Cabrera, but those comps for Montero aren't unreasonable.

[FredLynn]

That 7 game gap' date=' by the way, was mainly due to the absence of Buchholz in the starting rotation. They'll be better this year, though they would have added another starter by now if they were the Yankees. They still don't have a lot of depth in the starting rotation.[/quote']

 

That, my friend, is ********. Using injuries as an excuse is ALWAYS ********. You should know better.

[example1]

I'm hoping that montero hits .360 next year' date=' but that will not change the fact that the Yankees just filled a hole for many years to come with a kid with a lot of upward potential. It pisses me off much more than the Kuroda signing.[/quote']

 

For whatever reason, the Yankees have been struggling to land good pitchers without going the CC hundreds of millions of $$ route. This fills a hole but fortunately it cost them a fair amount to do.

[example1]

That' date=' my friend, is ********. Using injuries as an excuse is ALWAYS ********. You should know better.[/quote']

 

Is that what Bleacher Report says?

[SCM33]

Montero is not a superstar yet. He still has rookie status' date=' and he has no position.[/quote']

 

Neither did David Ortiz.....Boston seemed to find a place for him.

 

Hes a DH, and there is nothing wrong with that if he produces.

 

I hate the "he has no position" argument. A position does exist for guys in baseball if they can hit as long as its the AL. Edgar Martinez had a HOF career, and he also had no position.

[FredLynn]

Is that what Bleacher Report says?

 

ALL teams have injuries. Next year it could be Beckett; it could be Lester; it could be CC; it could be Pineda.

Its insane to say that gee, we could be better if not for injuries.

Thats ******** and you know it.

[iortiz]

Is that what Bleacher Report says?

 

C'mon E1, you know that injuries are part of the game, they are not excuses or a lucky matter. You need to consider them in your offseason strategy. On the other hand, somewhere I heard that Buchy is ready, and yes, he will be a great addition.

[example1]

ALL teams have injuries. Next year it could be Beckett; it could be Lester; it could be CC; it could be Pineda.

Its insane to say that gee, we could be better if not for injuries.

Thats ******** and you know it.

 

If CC's arm falls off next year I will be perfectly fine with Yankees fans using that as an excuse if they miss the playoffs.

 

If Roy Halladay and Cliff Lee get injured the Phillies don't have the best rotation anymore and won't be as good. Hence the results should suffer directly because of the injuries. Seems pretty basic to me.

 

Sometimes people use injuries as an excuse when it isn't legitimate (like, if I were to use Lackey's injury as an excuse next year). Sometimes they just are legitimate.

 

Saying that there were players who were injured and are coming back, and hence production should go up, is not using injuries as an excuse. It is accounting for the lost production with a reasonable guess.

[FredLynn]

C'mon E1' date=' you know that injuries are part of the game, they are not excuses. On the other hand, somewhere I heard that Buchy is ready, and yes, he will be a great addition.[/quote']

 

Using injuries to explain poor performance is exactly that: an excuse. Occasionally a team has an extraordinary number of injuries, but having a single quality SP get injured for half the season hardly constitutes "extraordinary". Its just another excuse for lack of talent.

[FredLynn]

If CC's arm falls off next year I will be perfectly fine with Yankees fans using that as an excuse if they miss the playoffs.

 

If Roy Halladay and Cliff Lee get injured the Phillies don't have the best rotation anymore and won't be as good. Hence the results should suffer directly because of the injuries. Seems pretty basic to me.

 

Sometimes people use injuries as an excuse when it isn't legitimate (like, if I were to use Lackey's injury as an excuse next year). Sometimes they just are legitimate.

 

Saying that there were players who were injured and are coming back, and hence production should go up, is not using injuries as an excuse. It is accounting for the lost production with a reasonable guess.

 

You know, usually your posts are logical, though I may not agree with them. But I am not going to allow "injuries" to be an excuse here without comment, unless they are extraordinary. A single injury to Sabathia is not in that category.

Sorry. Injuries happen.

We have a mediocre pitching staff. Thats just the way it is, with or without CB.

[a700hitter]

If CC's arm falls off next year I will be perfectly fine with Yankees fans using that as an excuse if they miss the playoffs.

 

If Roy Halladay and Cliff Lee get injured the Phillies don't have the best rotation anymore and won't be as good. Hence the results should suffer directly because of the injuries. Seems pretty basic to me.

 

Sometimes people use injuries as an excuse when it isn't legitimate (like, if I were to use Lackey's injury as an excuse next year). Sometimes they just are legitimate.

 

Saying that there were players who were injured and are coming back, and hence production should go up, is not using injuries as an excuse. It is accounting for the lost production with a reasonable guess.

The Phillies and the Yankees have more depth in their rotations than the Sox do. If the Yankees lose CC, they still have a solid 5 guys with Nova, Pineda, Kuroda, Garcia and Hughes with AJ for depth.

Edit : They can survive losing one of their top 3. We can't.

[iortiz]

Using injuries to explain poor performance is exactly that: an excuse. Occasionally a team has an extraordinary number of injuries' date=' but having a single quality SP get injured for half the season hardly constitutes "extraordinary". Its just another excuse for lack of talent.[/quote']

 

Yup. They are part of the game. As I said, You need to consider them when you are planning your roster.