9/1 vs. Yankees

[a700hitter]

The only argument in his favor was his 2010 season where he had high OBP. I agreed with you' date=' and everyone just kept saying "look at 2010", and look, 2011 looks almost identical to 2009, not 2010.[/quote']I agree with you. As you pointed out earlier, the guy has no tools other than his speed. The Yankees are not really a speed club, despite the fact that they are leading the league in SBs. They are usually a power team. He doesn't fit with them, and IMO he's not very good. I stand by my prediction.

[Palodios]

The only argument in his favor was his 2010 season where he had high OBP. I agreed with you' date=' and everyone just kept saying "look at 2010", and look, 2011 looks almost identical to 2009, not 2010.[/quote']

 

He serves that team extremely well. A .350 career OBP is well above average for speed types. Most of the guys above that are either big bats that walk a ton, or elite players with lots of skills like Car-Gon/Pedroia etc. All he needs to do is get on first and wait for someone to homer him in. He's not an elite player, but he's still very valuable.

[Station 13]

If not for a bonehead move by Girardi' date=' we very well could have swept your top 3 in Fenway with us throwing 2 guys who wont be in the playoff rotation[/quote']

 

 

What? the series could gone the either way with the Sox sweeping the Yankees. Sabathia was lucky and the Sox left 16 to starve on the base paths.

[a700hitter]

Gardner is just the kind of guy that Cashman will package together with 1 or 2 overblown killer B prospects for an elite player. After the trade, Gardner would toild on a second division team as an unspectacular platoon/4th OFer and the prospects would never materialize. If it happens, it will be a brilliant move by Cashman, who we should woo right after Theo goes to the Cubs.

[jacksonianmarch]

Gardner had been money up until August. His only big issue is health and he seems to bang up his wrists and hands a fair amount. He looks hurt swinging up there. I hope I am wrong. Regardless, there is a month left and prior to August, he was a .750OPS guy with 50SB potential, which is pretty good. He also plays elite D in LF.

[SoxSport]

A couple of things.

First, you can't expect bullpen guys to be as sharp pitching back-to-back games on successive days.

It happens, but they are usually less sharp--enough to make a difference. That's the fallacy of the one pitcher per inning approach. The heatup in the bullpen counts, too.

 

Second, why does it seem that every close umpire call in a Red Sox/Yankee game--especially balls and strikes--goes to the Yankees? Now we know that the NY teams get special media attention being from the biggest TV market --they get on network TV the most. And they're always called by their nicknames. But the umpires, too?

[a700hitter]

Gardner had been money up until August. His only big issue is health and he seems to bang up his wrists and hands a fair amount. He looks hurt swinging up there. I hope I am wrong. Regardless' date=' there is a month left and prior to August, he was a .750OPS guy with 50SB potential, which is pretty good. He also plays elite D in LF.[/quote']Yeah, you keep building him up. I ain't buying, and I hope that no GMs fall for this Yankee propaganda.

[Emmz]

He serves that team extremely well. A .350 career OBP is well above average for speed types. Most of the guys above that are either big bats that walk a ton' date=' or elite players with lots of skills like Car-Gon/Pedroia etc. All he needs to do is get on first and wait for someone to homer him in. He's not an elite player, but he's still very valuable.[/quote']

 

Gardner had been money up until August. His only big issue is health and he seems to bang up his wrists and hands a fair amount. He looks hurt swinging up there. I hope I am wrong. Regardless' date=' there is a month left and prior to August, he was a .750OPS guy with 50SB potential, which is pretty good. He also plays elite D in LF.[/quote']

 

This:

 

He's a bit worse than the others too, as it pertains to the pitcher's approach. Most of his type of player will a least be aggressive with strikes in the zone. Not Gardner. He looks at more strikes and strikes out looking more than almost the entire league. Dude is up there looking to do one thing, walk, and I think pitchers are figuring this out.

 

EDIT: Leads the league with the lowest Z-Swing% (percentage of pitches in the strikezone that are swung at) among qualified players at 50.1%. I think his struggles will continue until he proves he can do something to those pitches in the zone.

 

I've never been impressed by him either, his whole game is speed. If he can have a high OBP he will be effective, no doubt, but he's not been all that effective this year IMO, he'll have to adjust.

[yankees228]

The argument I've mostly had with you and a700 is not about Gardner in future years, but rather about Gardner in 2010. He was excellent last year.

[Emmz]

Lol, no one ever said he wasn't excellent in 2010, I'll go get those posts from that thread. You were the one who kept bringing up 2010 like it was going to be a career norm. I suggested that 2011 was looking more like 2009 than 2010, you just kept using 2010 like it was the only year he played. I agreed that 2010 was a good year, because as a base stealer you don't need to have high OPS, just OBP, to utilize your speed. However, I said he's always been a pretty crappy hitter, and is really the product of whatever OBP he gets.

 

If he doesn't start hitting too, IMO he'll start to become more and more ineffective. He's sort of being exposed as a one-trick pony.

[Palodios]

This:

 

 

 

I've never been impressed by him either, his whole game is speed. If he can have a high OBP he will be effective, no doubt, but he's not been all that effective this year IMO, he'll have to adjust.

 

Once again, .350 is still solid for a speed guy. Valuable, not elite.

[Emmz]

Once again' date=' .350 is still solid for a speed guy. Valuable, not elite.[/quote']

 

.350 is not good enough IMO when you consider the stat from ORS' post.

[Palodios]

.350 is not good enough IMO when you consider the stat from ORS' post.

 

Can you explain to me what makes a strikeout a more significant out than a groundout/flyout? I'm not saying that to be facetious, as you'll notice I do lack baseball knowledge fairly frequently, and logically, I don't see the difference for a speed player who won't be hitting sac flies anyway, except possibly a downward trend, which has yet to knock him off career averages.

[Emmz]

the strikeout doesn't factor into this, it's because he doesn't swing at pitches in the zone, which sort of looks like he's only trying to get walks. When the league realizes this, and I think they have, this will be a huge problem, and he will start to pitch him more in the zone. If he can't hit the pitches in the zone, he will struggle even more and more. Most speed players do not live and die on walks the way that Gardner does.

 

He is one of the least aggressive hitters in the league, is what that stat means.

[yankees228]

Lol, no one ever said he wasn't excellent in 2010, I'll go get those posts from that thread. You were the one who kept bringing up 2010 like it was going to be a career norm. I suggested that 2011 was looking more like 2009 than 2010, you just kept using 2010 like it was the only year he played. I agreed that 2010 was a good year, because as a base stealer you don't need to have high OPS, just OBP, to utilize your speed. However, I said he's always been a pretty crappy hitter, and is really the product of whatever OBP he gets.

 

If he doesn't start hitting too, IMO he'll start to become more and more ineffective. He's sort of being exposed as a one-trick pony.

 

If that's what you expect to find in the other thread I think you'll be disappointed.

[Emmz]

It's pretty much just you saying he's got a good WAR, and me stating how he's a bad hitter, and that he's ineffective sooner rather than later. His WAR is all in his defense, and his offense is all due to how many pitches he takes. You never once mentioned stats from 2009 or his current stats, just 2010. I did at first say that his 2010 was offensively was mediocre, but I was referring to his hitting, which is why I mentioned OPS/OPS+. Last year was good, his .760 OPS last year wasn't very impressive at all, but his value is in his speed and OBP, which I would acknowledge.

 

You never mentioned anything about 2011, or 2009, the two years that are most identical to each other, and we most identical to each other when the discussion took place. Either way, he's the product of whatever perfectage he gets on base. I tell you, I don't see that being very effective a few years from now.

[jacksonianmarch]

What you are doing right now is selecting Gardner without the full season and after an abysmal month. It's easy to pcik times in the season when a player is at his worst and say he isnt very good. We should see how he does in September before making judgements.

[d-money]

I blame Lester and his crappy start.You cant throw close to 40 pitches in the first inning.He needs to work on his damn control.I am not confident right now in a game 2 with him come the playoffs!

[Emmz]

What you are doing right now is selecting Gardner without the full season and after an abysmal month. It's easy to pcik times in the season when a player is at his worst and say he isnt very good. We should see how he does in September before making judgements.

How? I said he was good for whatever his OBP is, .350 is decent, but he just takes pitches all the time, he's not aggressive at all, and this will be a problem when the league catches on.

[yankees228]

It's pretty much just you saying he's got a good WAR, and me stating how he's a bad hitter, and that he's ineffective sooner rather than later. His WAR is all in his defense, and his offense is all due to how many pitches he takes. You never once mentioned stats from 2009 or his current stats, just 2010. I did at first say that his 2010 was offensively was mediocre, but I was referring to his hitting, which is why I mentioned OPS/OPS+. Last year was good, his .760 OPS last year wasn't very impressive at all, but his value is in his speed and OBP, which I would acknowledge.

 

You never mentioned anything about 2011, or 2009, the two years that are most identical to each other, and we most identical to each other when the discussion took place. Either way, he's the product of whatever perfectage he gets on base. I tell you, I don't see that being very effective a few years from now.

 

I never mentioned those years because the point I was making had nothing to do with those years, or any future years. It wasn't about projecting him forward, but rather about defending his 2010 season. The discussion started between a700 and me, and that's what the topic was ... how effective he was 2010. My only argument was that, in 2010, he was excellent defensively and good offensively. I completely agree with you and ORS about the flaws in his offensive game, and he'll have to change his approach moving forward.

[Emmz]

I'll steal your catchphrase here, "fair enough".

[yankees228]

I'll steal your catchphrase here' date=' "fair enough".[/quote']

 

Haha nicely done.

[v2freak]

I didn't get to catch the game. Can anyone tell me what rivers last pitch looked like? I caught the first game of the series a few days ago and Rivera got some generous calls on pitches outside that even YES commentators found to be lucky.

[Palodios]

On the pitch chart, it looked like the ball's top left corner was just touching the very edges of the bottom right corner of the zone. It was a really close call, IMO.

[yankees228]

I didn't get to catch the game. Can anyone tell me what rivers last pitch looked like? I caught the first game of the series a few days ago and Rivera got some generous calls on pitches outside that even YES commentators found to be lucky.

 

Brooks had it as a definite strike. Just the perfect pitch in the biggest spot of the game.

[a700hitter]

I have no problem with the strike 3 call. AGon's approach in that AB sucked so hew shouldn't have whined about it.

[Flynnatic10]

Posting to keep GT's in order