Saltalamacchia starting to tear it up

[SoxFanForsyth]

Varitek is a fossil and his OPS is .725. Salty's is .758 and falling. I wouldn't be getting him ready for HOF induction.

 

He. Is. 26.

 

You're acting like he isn't able to improve with more consistent playing time.

[a700hitter]

Martin's OPS in August is .836

Salty's OPS in August is .604

 

I'm not putting this out there for comparisons sake as much as a reminder that we should have had them both. That would have put a big hurt on the Yankees.

[a700hitter]

He. Is. 26.

 

You're acting like he isn't able to improve with more consistent playing time.

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that people are blowing his performance out of performance. It's not that great. I hope he gets better in future years. He's made a big improvement being able to hold down a ML job for an entire season. His defense has improved dramatically since the start of the season. Nevertheless, I hope this is not his ceiling.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that people are blowing his performance out of performance. It's not that great. I hope he gets better in future years. He's made a big improvement being able to hold down a ML job for an entire season. His defense has improved dramatically since the start of the season. Nevertheless' date=' I hope this is not his ceiling.[/quote']

 

Agree. Salty is above league average as a catcher, though. It's just a weak position. I'll tell you one thing, as soon as I have a kid, I'm putting a chest protector on him and teaching him out to hit from both sides. You get a switch hitting catcher, it's guaranteed draft.

[a700hitter]

Agree. Salty is above league average as a catcher' date=' though. It's just a weak position. I'll tell you one thing, as soon as I have a kid, I'm putting a chest protector on him and teaching him out to hit from both sides. You get a switch hitting catcher, it's guaranteed draft.[/quote']...or make him throw left handed. That's even better. He can make a really good living for pitching about 40 innings a year until he is almost 40 yrs old. Catching is very grueling physically.

[SoxFanForsyth]

...or make him throw left handed. That's even better. He can make a really good living for pitching about 40 innings a year until he is almost 40 yrs old. Catching is very grueling physically.

 

I'm 5'8. Unless I have the next Tim Collins.

[Palodios]

Agree. Salty is above league average as a catcher' date=' though. It's just a weak position. I'll tell you one thing, as soon as I have a kid, I'm putting a chest protector on him and teaching him out to hit from both sides. You get a switch hitting catcher, it's guaranteed draft.[/quote']

 

Better idea. Teach him(hell, or her, even) how to throw a knuckleball. Then your kid won't have broken knees at 35, and could play until he's 50.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Better idea. Teach him(hell' date=' or her, even) how to throw a knuckleball. Then your kid won't have broken knees at 35, and could play until he's 50.[/quote']

 

Yeah but everyone will get pissed off at him while they wait for 200.

[Palodios]

Martin's OPS in August is .836

Salty's OPS in August is .604

 

I'm not putting this out there for comparisons sake as much as a reminder that we should have had them both. That would have put a big hurt on the Yankees.

 

Season numbers:

 

Salty's OPS .756

Varitek's OPS .726

Martin's OPS .717

 

Martin also cost twice as much as Varitek and Salty combined. If the Sox went for Martin, you know the Yankees would have just gotten someone else.

[a700hitter]

Season numbers:

 

Salty's OPS .756

Varitek's OPS .726

Martin's OPS .717

 

Martin also cost twice as much as Varitek and Salty combined. If the Sox went for Martin, you know the Yankees would have just gotten someone else.

Who? It was a very thin field.

[Palodios]

Who? It was a very thin field.

 

I don't know if you've noticed, but the Yankees have an uncanny ability to trade garbage for elite players.

[a700hitter]

I don't know if you've noticed' date=' but the Yankees have an uncanny ability to trade garbage for elite players.[/quote']It would have cost them, because there aren't too many good expendable catchers. Martin has helped the Yankees tremendously this season. There is no denying it. Without Martin, they might have been looking at a catching rotation of Cervelli, Posada and Montero.

[Dojji]

Who? It was a very thin field.

 

How about Salty? How would that have looked? Because the only way we go after Martin, is if we didn't trade for Salty in the prior deadline. I say that as someone who, at the time, was perhaps the most prominent supporter of going to get Martin as he would have been a good low-risk investment.

 

We'd have had people coming in here making the same point you just made, only in reverse. Salty is, after all, outhitting Martin on the year, and he is younger, with fewer injury problems in his past.

 

We made the right call on that one -- and given that Salty still has upside and Martin pretty much is what he is, I think we're on the right side of that particular line.

 

I like Lavarnway as a prospect, but counting on him to develop into a big league fulltime starting catcher is still a leap of faith, so I'm very glad we have Salty around to hold down the fort.

[a700hitter]

How about Salty? How would that have looked?

 

We'd have had people coming in here making the same point you just made, only in reverse.

Huh? We already had Salty. If we had signed Martin, Salty would have been sharing catching duties with Martin, so how could the Yankees get Salty? I don't think you are following the conversation.

 

Edit: I have never posed the Salty/Martin thing as an either/or proposition, but rather having them both and the Yankees having neither.

[Palodios]

It would have cost them' date=' because there aren't too many good expendable catchers. Martin has helped the Yankees tremendously this season. There is no denying it. Without Martin, they might have been looking at a catching rotation of Cervelli, Posada and Montero.[/quote']

 

Well, the problem is the Yankees have three very highly overhyped catching prospects in Montero, Romine, and Sanchez. They could have centered a deal around one of them to get a solid fillin for the time being.

[a700hitter]

Well' date=' the problem is the Yankees have three very highly overhyped catching prospects in Montero, Romine, and Sanchez. They could have centered a deal around one of them to get a solid fillin for the time being.[/quote']I wouldn't mind if the Yankees had to trade some of their top prospects for a mediocre stopgap catcher. That would have been a plus for the Sox. Plus, I doubt they would have landed an All Star catcher like Martin.

[Dojji]

Huh? We already had Salty. If we had signed Martin, Salty would have been sharing catching duties with Martin, so how could the Yankees get Salty? I don't think you are following the conversation.

 

Edit: I have never posed the Salty/Martin thing as an either/or proposition, but rather having them both and the Yankees having neither.

 

Realistically speaking there's NWIH we were going after Martin anyway. Theo was committed to Salty, and he was committed to Varitek as the backup catcher to help develop Salty.

 

Absent Martin, the guy the Yankees go after is proably Yorvit Torrealba.

[a700hitter]

Realistically speaking there's NWIH we were going after Martin anyway. Theo was committed to Salty' date=' and he was committed to Varitek as the backup catcher to help develop Salty.[/quote']They were in negotiations with Martin despite having Salty.

 

Absent Martin' date=' the guy the Yankees go after is proably Yorvit Torrealba.[/quote']Torrealba had signed in November before Martin had signed.

[Dojji]

I wanted Martin. And if Theo hadn't done due dilligence on Martin at least, I would have been upset.

 

And it doesn't matter who signed when IMHO because we don't know when the Sox would have gotten a hypothetical deal done with Martin.

[a700hitter]

I wanted Martin. And if Theo hadn't done due dilligence on Martin at least, I would have been upset.

 

And it doesn't matter who signed when IMHO because we don't know when the Sox would have gotten a hypothetical deal done with Martin.

True and we don't know whether they would've committed to Varitek had they decided to sign Martin.

[Dojji]

That's what I was thinking. Martin's a smart veteran catcher with a lot of Jason Kendall in him. He would have been fine mentoring Salty. Although I do think from a pure mentorship standpoint, Varitek has more to teach. I can hope that something of Tek's preparation routine finds its way into Salty's mind, because that's the thing of all things he most needs to learn from the master.

[Palodios]

I get the feeling that some of Beckett's struggles were very much mental and having his binky Varitek has helped him have this career year of his. I know it is a no-no to bring up accusations of inside issues for players while sitting at home, but watching that game against the Yankees last year where he absolutely imploded was very telling. I don't think he would have had this kind of success this year with Martin, and the Red Sox definitely know what Varitek brings to the table.

[SoxSport]

Everything is overhyped by the media in NY.

Look at Beltran. They even suckered one contender to give up prime prospects for him.

 

The teams that made out good are the Sox with Bedard and the Phillies with Pence.

 

The Yankees are flying high with questionable pitching. When will they crash.

[redsoxrules]

whats the average offensive numbers by catcher in MLB ?

[Emmz]

It's truly a shame that players don't peak from 27-30. Oh wait, they do. But at least they don't begin to play better with consistent playing time. Oh wait, they do.

 

You talk all this about his career numbers, but the guy is 26 years old. When Varitek was 26 years old, his line was .257/.311/.410.

 

Hell, by the time Varitek had 1,153 AB (Salty has 1,081), he was hitting .258/.331/.432. Salty's career numbers right now are .248/.313/.404. And Varitek was 28 by the time he had 1,000 AB, Salty is 26.

 

Varitek, from ages 29-33, hit .280/.361/.470, but you're telling me that Salty can't develop his skills any further because he's a 26 year old who has over 1,000 AB in the MLB? That's absolutely ridiculous. You act like, by the time they're 25 years old, players will have career numbers that they will trend toward rather than getting better. That's absurd.

 

Players will develop better pitch recognition, which will lead to higher OBP, higher SLG as they will be able to adjust and react better to offspeed stuff, and a higher average. Just because his plate discipline hasn't developed as quickly as his recognition, that doesn't mean it's a fluke season. Absolutely ridiculous.

 

LOL, you, along with most of this forum, are judging his last two months as if it's all that matters. I'll say this again, similar stats with a massively inflated SLG% is the classic signs of a fluke. You people actually think that the last two months compare to the rest of the sample size, which suggests I'm right, and you're wrong.

 

He's not very good, he's average, mediocre, whatever you want to call it, but he's not an elite offensive catcher yet. Maybe if he produces this way for two years, get back to me.

[Emmz]

Are your standards at catcher unrealistic because you've seen so much of Mauer and Varitek? League average at that position is absolutely abysmal. There has been an influx of young phenom catchers, and what has happened to them? Posey is out for the season. Wieters has a .720 OPS. Montero is probably going to end up a DH/1B. Veterans age fast and either retire early or move to another position.

 

At the beginning of the season, we had a few options. Trade for Suziki... .672 OPS. Sign John Buck, .702 OPS. My personal choice, Miguel Olivo, is hitting .210 with a .610 OPS. Victor Martinez is hitting .815, but doesn't catch anymore, and would cost a significant amount more.

 

That doesn't apply to my argument, this board treats him like he's a .850 OPS hitter, they disregard the fact that he's been mediocre every season except for two months out of this season. No one here out of me, a700, or SCM is saying he's a below average hitting catcher, we're saying he's not the answer, .720 OPS is not going to cut it with mediocre defense. Overall as a player, he's not very good, and his offense has only been a plus for this season, which is inflated by two hot months and a SLG% that is 50 points higher than his career average.

 

I'm not really as "he's junk" as a700 and SCM, all I'm saying is that this board praises him for the accomplishments of a couple successful months. Give it two seasons and a proper sample size before you say he's "elite" and all of this BS.

[Dojji]

That doesn't apply to my argument, this board treats him like he's a .850 OPS hitter, they disregard the fact that he's been mediocre every season except for two months out of this season. No one here out of me, a700, or SCM is saying he's a below average hitting catcher, we're saying he's not the answer, .720 OPS is not going to cut it with mediocre defense. Overall as a player, he's not very good, and his offense has only been a plus for this season, which is inflated by two hot months and a SLG% that is 50 points higher than his career average.

 

I'm not really as "he's junk" as a700 and SCM, all I'm saying is that this board praises him for the accomplishments of a couple successful months. Give it two seasons and a proper sample size before you say he's "elite" and all of this BS.

 

Actually it does apply to your position. It apples precisely and accurately to your position. The fact is that Salty is hardly "mediocre" for a catcher.

 

Find me one catcher not named McCann or Avila who's having a dominant offensive year this year. They just aren't out there. And you can bet that McCann and Avila are absolutely, totally unavailable. What Salty has done on the year, even with the two big slumps added in , is about the best we were going to get out of anyone at catcher this year.

 

Salty is putting up numbers that you can live with on offense, and has been better than we hoped for defensively. As a package, considering what the position looks like overall in terms of talent, Salty is a very good catcher. Yes, even if you count April and August into the numbers.

[Emmz]

Actually it does apply to your position. It apples precisely and accurately to your position. The fact is that Salty is hardly "mediocre" for a catcher.

 

Find me one catcher not named McCann or Avila who's having a dominant offensive year this year. They just aren't out there. And you can bet that McCann and Avila are absolutely, totally unavailable. What Salty has done on the year, even with the two big slumps added in , is about the best we were going to get out of anyone at catcher this year.

 

Salty is putting up numbers that you can live with on offense, and has been better than we hoped for defensively. As a package, considering what the position looks like overall in terms of talent, Salty is a very good catcher. Yes, even if you count April and August into the numbers.

 

I was waiting for the king of straw to show up, and you did.

 

My point of view is that he's not elite, and a mediocre bat overall. Good try, though.

 

Let's see, I've quoted your posts drooling over the supposed fact that he's an elite offensive catcher. My point is that you people just drool over him like his hot streak was going to sustain throughout his career, that was the implication, considering that whenever anyone mentions his career averages, which are average to dare I say MEDIOCRE, they're treated like some sort of lunatic who can't see that Salty is now just achieving the potential that he was promised.

 

Unfortunately, I was always just saying "yeah I hope you're right, but don't get too excited". Weren't you the one who was making those thinly veiled hints that we should be eating crow on him? To me, that implies something like he's going to sustain some of this success. That is my argument, that Red Sox Nation needs to pull back a little. All sports fans are fickle, I see the way you guys talk about Lowrie when he was hot early in the season, or the way you guys act whenever a call-up is successful. You act like he's the answer. To me, they're the answer after a substantial sample size where they're proven to be successful, not after a month or two of tearing it up.

 

I apologize if that's being too rational for you.

[Dojji]

He's an elite offensive prospect. Or was. That's different from being an elite offensive catcher, and it's all the difference between Eric Hosmer and Albert Pujols. If you're going to try to play superior, at least make sure you're using the right argument.

 

He doesn't have to be an elite catcher to justify his roster spot. He just has to be adequate, and Jarrod Saltalamacchia is more than adequate -- is, in fact, well above average.

[Emmz]

He's an elite offensive prospect. Or was. That's different from being an elite offensive catcher' date=' and it's all the difference between Eric Hosmer and Albert Pujols. If you're going to try to play superior, at least make sure you're using the right argument.[/quote']

 

I am using the right argument. I'm not trying to act "superior", I'm just making sense, and reminding you that your argument is based on a straw man that either developed from not reading my posts, or perhaps despair to try and pull something out of your ass.

 

You did not say anything about him as a prospect, you said how good he was right now. He WAS a good prospect when he was in his early 20s, you know, when people hadn't seen a substantial amount of bust-like performance.

 

He doesn't have to be an elite catcher to justify his roster spot. He just has to be adequate, and Jarrod Saltalamacchia is more than adequate -- is, in fact, well above average.

 

Based on 2 months, vs the majority of 5 years of being mediocre *gasp*.

 

I find it pretty sad that I have to say this again, my argument is largely just reminding you that he's been good for 2 months of his career, and that you really ought to hold your breath on that top-3 catcher crap.