The Manny Thread

[example1]

McGwire hit 49 as 23 y/o rookie in 1987. He had the goods to get in on his own.

 

A lot of players have the goods to get in on their own if they keep up high levels of production over a long career. Through his first 10 seasons McGwire had a 154 OPS+, which ties him exactly with Manny's career average (Mac finished with a 162 OPS+). If he didn't use and stayed healthy for another few seasons he's in.

 

Unfortunately, McGwire was playing with Canseco who has said he was using heavily during those years, so it seems possible that McGwire was too. I'm very suspicious about a) when McGwire started using and whether if he had not used injuries would have derailed his career too early.

[ORS]

A lot of players have the goods to get in on their own if they keep up high levels of production over a long career. Through his first 10 seasons McGwire had a 154 OPS+, which ties him exactly with Manny's career average (Mac finished with a 162 OPS+). If he didn't use and stayed healthy for another few seasons he's in.

 

Unfortunately, McGwire was playing with Canseco who has said he was using heavily during those years, so it seems possible that McGwire was too. I'm very suspicious about a) when McGwire started using and whether if he had not used injuries would have derailed his career too early.

Mac as a rookie...

 

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/multimedia/photo_gallery/1001/mark.mcgwire.rare.photos/images/mark-mcgwire(3).jpg

 

I think he easily gets to the 500 club on his own. And prior to public knowledge of the steroid era, 500 HR was a lock for the Hall.

[a700hitter]

Without roids Mac might not have stayed healthy enough to compile the necessary numbers. He had injury problems early in his career. We just don't know the effect the roids had on any of these guys and whether they would have made the HOF, except for Bonds. He was putting up HOF credentials before his head expanded like it was pumped with air. He would have had the numbers-- probably a few more steals and around 100-150 less HRs

[BornToRun]

I really wish McGwire would have gotten in. Juiced or not, what he did was amazing and now that the reasons for him not coming out have come to light, I want Big Mac in the HOF.

[Lackeyfan38]

I really wish McGwire would have gotten in. Juiced or not' date=' what he did was amazing and now that the reasons for him not coming out have come to light, I want Big Mac in the HOF.[/quote']

 

The guy is a absolute fraud. He does not belong in the HOF.

[ORS]

Without roids Mac might not have stayed healthy enough to compile the necessary numbers. He had injury problems early in his career. We just don't know the effect the roids had on any of these guys and whether they would have made the HOF' date=' except for Bonds. He was putting up HOF credentials before his head expanded like it was pumped with air. He would have had the numbers-- probably a few more steals and around 100-150 less HRs[/quote']

Mac's most chronic body part was his back, as he had constant issues with his discs. Steroids don' t positively impact this part of the body. I think he gets to 500 w/o the juice.

[example1]

I just don't know... Bonds is the one I'm most inclined to put in despite his usage. I don't know to what degree Mac was aided by steroids in his career. He has very impressive OBP numbers throughout, which definitely is a point in his favor. He also had real injury problems and although the back isn't specifically aided by steroids, power numbers later in one's career often are--and he certainly had those.

 

It isn't worth arguing too much about. I'm sure we would all agree it's a s***** discussion to even have to have and that's not because we disagree, it's because of the difficulties raised by PEDs.

[redsoxfreak91]

There is only one difference between manny, bonds, clemsons, mac or any other assumed or convicted steroid user. Before 2003, steroid rules were very vague and easy to get around. After 2003 steroid rules were written strictly and consequences were set. Bonds, clemons, and the others all were assumed/convicted steriod users before 2003. In fact I believe that over 50% of MLB players used steroids during this era. I mean if you were an up and coming player and saw what steroids can do and know you wont get in trouble, why wouldnt you want to do them also. I believe eventually the younger generation will have majority votes for the Hall and it will boil down to the fact that those convicted before 2003 will get passes. Those convicted after 2003 will not get in because they went against league rules and legitimately "cheated." Sorry Manny, I really wish you will get in but unfortunately "manny being manny" came back to bite him and he is leaving a cheater....unfortunate.

[Emmz]

The Hall of Fame doesn't let Pete Rose or Joe Jackson in, I don't think the 'roid users have a chance as of right now. I think if they're ever considered, it's going to be after Rose and Jackson get in.

[snydersminipretzels]

Rose will never get in, neither will Joe Jackson.

[Youk Of The Nation]

The Hall of Fame doesn't let Pete Rose or Joe Jackson in' date=' I don't think the 'roid users have a chance as of right now. I think if they're ever considered, it's going to be after Rose and Jackson get in.[/quote']

 

Exactly. Whether or not they could have achieved their numbers without 'help' is irrelevant. Steroids are against the rules. If they won't let Pete Rose in, they'd damn well stick to that line of reasoning and not let anyone else in, either.

[a700hitter]

Letting roiders in would certainly diminish what the Hall represents. They should hold the line on all known roid users. The roiders made a decision to cheat and go for the big $ and records. They got their money and they damaged the integrity of the record books. For this, they deserve no reward.

[jacksonianmarch]

The thing is, though, how many weren't caught? Sosa obviously juiced, but he wasnt caught. Do you not let him in?

[a700hitter]

The thing is' date=' though, how many weren't caught? Sosa obviously juiced, but he wasnt caught. Do you not let him in?[/quote']There should be a thorough investigation by MLB of players suspected of juicing. If there is enough evidence, keep him out. Sosa also caulked his bat after he stopped juicing, so he cheated in many ways.