Tito, Best ever?

[BSN07]

http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110131&content_id=16537076&vkey=news_bos&c_id=bos

 

Interesting article.

 

IMO Tito is an average game manager. This has been discussed often here. He'll make you scratch you head or scream an obscenity occasionally. But he does ok. Where he really makes up for that is off the field, in the clubhouse, and with the media. He's Ace's all the way across the board in those category's. In that sense I believe he is the best the Sox have ever had. But in my lifetime the bar hasn't been set too high. I started with Butch Hobson...

[SoxFanForsyth]

http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110131&content_id=16537076&vkey=news_bos&c_id=bos

 

Interesting article.

 

IMO Tito is an average game manager. This has been discussed often here. He'll make you scratch you head or scream an obscenity occasionally. But he does ok. Where he really makes up for that is off the field, in the clubhouse, and with the media. He's Ace's all the way across the board in those category's. In that sense I believe he is the best the Sox have ever had. But in my lifetime the bar hasn't been set too high. I started with Butch Hobson...

 

Last year he had me banging my head against the wall when he would leave the starters in during the 7th after showing fatigue in the 6th.

 

Then again, he was put in a tough position, choosing between a fatigued Lester or a fresh MDC/RR. Hopefully this year he'll be a bit quicker with the trigger, now that we have Jenks, Wheeler, and Bard to clean up the 7th and 8th.

[Palodios]

Clearly I'm too young, but I think he's just had a helluva lot to work with talent-wise. Average coaching skills, above average ballclub skills.

[Emmz]

He's a terrible game manager, and a very good players manager. You can get away with that in the AL, just ask Joe Girardi.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Last year he had me banging my head against the wall when he would leave the starters in during the 7th after showing fatigue in the 6th.

 

Then again, he was put in a tough position, choosing between a fatigued Lester or a fresh MDC/RR. Hopefully this year he'll be a bit quicker with the trigger, now that we have Jenks, Wheeler, and Bard to clean up the 7th and 8th.

 

I think his rule was to let them pitch until they give up 6 or more runs. He'd let you get pounded out there until you have given up 6 ER.

[italstallianion]

I think that a lot of the head banging will go away with a new 3rd base coach.

[Emmz]

It's his pitching decisions, they make me want to burn a bag full of kittens.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I think that a lot of the head banging will go away with a new 3rd base coach.

 

I can't believe I forgot about Bogar last year. Oh my God. He was terrible. How many times did we run ourselves out of an inning with him over there?

 

Youk on 1st, double down the RF line, and he gets gunned down by 27 feet trying to score with no outs. Beltre grounds out and Hermida whiffs and we lose by 1 in 11 innings. Absolutely atrocious coaching in the 3rd base box last year.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Haha this talk about Bogar reminds of the "worst 3rd base coach" thread.

 

http://www.talksox.com/forum/talk-sox-forum/14441-worst-red-sox-3b-coach-all-time.html

[SoxFanForsyth]

Thank you for that link. That's amazing.

[italstallianion]

I voted for Julio Lugo

[EXman369]

In some ways its his strength and some ways his weakness but i believe he trusts his players a little too much and puts too much faith into them IE Ortiz in 2009 which was successful but him leaving in the pitchers which doesn't always work out.

[yeszir]

There are so many factors that go into winning that answering the "best manager ever" question is impossible. If all teams played with the same players in the same parks at the same times then maybe you could give it a shot. I'd take Tito over almost anyone else at this point, so that counts for something.

[VA Sox Fan]

Guess he lucked out in 2004 and 2007.

 

Love Tito. And yes I am a Tito "apologist".

[VA Sox Fan]

There are so many factors that go into winning that answering the "best manager ever" question is impossible. If all teams played with the same players in the same parks at the same times then maybe you could give it a shot. I'd take Tito over almost anyone else at this point' date=' so that counts for something.[/quote']

 

^ This.

[SoxSport]

Quite a few good posters here who recognize Tito's strengths are mainly interpersonal: great with the players and the media, mediocre in game management. The one positive in the latter case is the way he uses the whole team. Doc Rivers of the Celtics could take some lessons from him on that account.

 

Tito has an advantage, like Girardi, of having a wealth of talent to handle. Which is why he will never win MOY. Girardi won't either.

 

Tito's main weakness, in my view, is his handling of pitching. This dates back to his days managing the Phillies, where he allowed Schilling to throw 145 pitches routinely. And Curt routinely got bombed after about 120 pitches. Schilling had to have a shoulder operation after a season of that. And Tito lost his job. With the Red Sox, he seems to have swung the pendulum in the other direction: too much bullpen, not enough starting pitcher. The result is Epstein goes out and gets a new bullpen every year or so. But then his overmanagement of pitching seems to be the norm in Baseball these days. Starters aren't used much beyond the mid-innings anymore. But then why are they so highly paid? The use of 3-4 relief pitchers every game--win or lose, one per inning--does tend to wear out a bullpen. We'll see what Curt Young, the new pitching coach, will do to this routine--coming from a pitching oriented team.

[SCM33]

Its hard evaluating a manager who is consistently surrounded by very good players. The only thing for him to really screw up is pitching changes and making sure guys are warm for matchups late in the game.

 

I think baseball manager is one of the most overrated positions in professional sports.

 

Titos main job is to manage the chemistry in the clubhouse and take the heat for his players when they dont perform.

 

If you lose your players, you lose games....then your job.

[Dipre]

Or it could be the exact opposite, and Tito routinely lets his starters get massacred out there with a fresh bullpen, being that that's the way the rest of the world sees it and bitches about it (constantly).

 

Pitchers are handled the way they're handled throughout the league because the game is a different game. It's not 1970 anymore. I'm going to call animal rights on you if you keep beating that dead horse. He's dead.

[SoxSport]

On the thread question, That fellow Carrigan who managed 3 World Series Champions for the Red Sox in the WWI era--just before the core of the team got transferred to NY--he has to figure in there prominently. Then Dick Williams, who won the AL pennant in '67 --the pre-playoff days, with Yaz and a bunch of no-names. Dick was MOY. And then there was Ralph Houk--highly respected, managed the team to a few 2nd place finishes in the early 80s when their GM, Haywood Sullivan, was thumbing his nose at free agents while George Steinbrenner was having them for breakfast.

[SCM33]

Or it could be the exact opposite, and Tito routinely lets his starters get massacred out there with a fresh bullpen, being that that's the way the rest of the world sees it and bitches about it (constantly).

 

Pitchers are handled the way they're handled throughout the league because the game is a different game. It's not 1970 anymore. I'm going to call animal rights on you if you keep beating that dead horse. He's dead.

 

Which post were you replying to?

 

This one:

Quite a few good posters here who recognize Tito's strengths are mainly interpersonal: great with the players and the media, mediocre in game management. The one positive in the latter case is the way he uses the whole team. Doc Rivers of the Celtics could take some lessons from him on that account.

 

Tito has an advantage, like Girardi, of having a wealth of talent to handle. Which is why he will never win MOY. Girardi won't either.

 

Tito's main weakness, in my view, is his handling of pitching. This dates back to his days managing the Phillies, where he allowed Schilling to throw 145 pitches routinely. And Curt routinely got bombed after about 120 pitches. Schilling had to have a shoulder operation after a season of that. And Tito lost his job. With the Red Sox, he seems to have swung the pendulum in the other direction: too much bullpen, not enough starting pitcher. The result is Epstein goes out and gets a new bullpen every year or so. But then his overmanagement of pitching seems to be the norm in Baseball these days. Starters aren't used much beyond the mid-innings anymore. But then why are they so highly paid? The use of 3-4 relief pitchers every game--win or lose, one per inning--does tend to wear out a bullpen. We'll see what Curt Young, the new pitching coach, will do to this routine--coming from a pitching oriented team.

 

Or mine....

Its hard evaluating a manager who is consistently surrounded by very good players. The only thing for him to really screw up is pitching changes and making sure guys are warm for matchups late in the game.

 

I think baseball manager is one of the most overrated positions in professional sports.

 

Titos main job is to manage the chemistry in the clubhouse and take the heat for his players when they dont perform.

 

If you lose your players, you lose games....then your job.

 

Just for clarity, Im a little confused who your reply was directed at.

[SoxSport]

Its hard evaluating a manager who is consistently surrounded by very good players. The only thing for him to really screw up is pitching changes and making sure guys are warm for matchups late in the game.

 

I think baseball manager is one of the most overrated positions in professional sports.

 

Titos main job is to manage the chemistry in the clubhouse and take the heat for his players when they dont perform.

 

If you lose your players, you lose games....then your job.

 

The interpersonal stuff--players and media as well--is probably the most difficult for a manager. And Tito does that very well.

 

At this point Tito is making big bucks for a manager, having been around a long time. Probably a couple of mil per year. But Baseball is one of those rare businesses where the Chief makes much less money than a lot of the Guardians. That makes it tough for the Chief to be Chief.

[Dipre]

First one.

 

Tito's issue is usually not yanking the starter too early, but too late. And he keeps talking about how starters are pampered and etc etc etc. Yet makes the Schilling point completely contradicting his other statements.

 

It's not that pitchers are pampered per se, but that the game has changed significantly, kids start throwing harder earlier, and that damages overall arm durability, they also get paid millions and teams want to protect those arms, not to mention all of the breaking pitches, and hitters wearing pitchers out. It's just a different game.

[jacksonianmarch]

It's also about training. A lot of these kids are musclebound earlier in their lives and arent as flexible. While they are stronger, they are also more brittle. Look at a lot of the earlier ballplayers. Some were fat, others skinny, others brawny, but how many ripped players did you ever see take a baseball diamond? Not many. But they had the strongest wrists and the most flexibility of their peers. They were truly durable as they were around their true weight in terms of BMI and were built on running and flexibility.

[Dojji]

At least the ones that survived were. A lot of the early ballplayers got hurt with injuries modern players can come back from too.

 

As for Tito? I wouldn't be too quick to hit on his failures. The fact is that it's a whole HECK of a lot easier to catch a coach making a failed move than it is to catch him making the right move, and a lot of the time it comes down to the player on the mound doing his job.

 

Judging a manager's job in the game is 1 part law of averages, 4 parts lighthouse fallacy. And Tito does more than enough off the field to deal with a few instances a year in which his crystal ball misfires.

[jacksonianmarch]

He's piloted the sox to 2 championships after not having one for 86 yrs. Unless you guys were alive in 1918, Tito should win by default.

[SoxFanForsyth]

First one.

 

Tito's issue is usually not yanking the starter too early, but too late. And he keeps talking about how starters are pampered and etc etc etc. Yet makes the Schilling point completely contradicting his other statements.

 

It's not that pitchers are pampered per se, but that the game has changed significantly, kids start throwing harder earlier, and that damages overall arm durability, they also get paid millions and teams want to protect those arms, not to mention all of the breaking pitches, and hitters wearing pitchers out. It's just a different game.

 

Kids are dropping the hammer at the age of 8 these days. I was throwing sliders when I was 10, and it completely mangles your elbow and shoulder. By 18, I had torn my rotator cuff. My kids are going to be throwing fastball/change up until they're 14. No point in blowing out arms to win the American Legion 13 year old state championship.

 

I remember last year - I think it was in the late May - June time frame, Francona started pulling the trigger at the first sign of trouble with the pitchers and I was thinking "Damn Tito, I'm proud of you". We were winning games, our bullpen was being used properly, and our SP's were getting out before they could get raked. Then, he went back to his old ways.

 

I'm hoping that with an improved bullpen, he won't be afraid to go to the well in the 6th inning if need be.

 

Is there any website that has a pitchers ERA by inning? I know Yahoo has it by number of pitches, but I'd love to see our SP ERA in the 6th and 7th. I bet it's 6+

[26 to 6]

He's a terrible game manager' date=' and a very good players manager. You can get away with that in the AL, just ask Joe Girardi.[/quote']

Or Joe Torre for that matter, who often made questionable decisions in-game, but there's nobody better at managing a clubhouse, IMO. Especially one consisting of such a diverse group of players.

 

As for Girardi, I don't see him as a players manager. I see him as the opposite. Sure, most of the players may like him, but he's not the warm, comforting father figure that guys like Lasorda, Tito, and Torre have been. I think a lot of that has to do with his age and that he played with a few of his players, but he runs a boot camp-esque spring training (seems to have toned it down a little bit each year since 2008), and despite some questionable decisions in the dugout during games, I think he's a pretty good manager. He just over-thinks and overanalyzes some things. He goes with what the numbers say and never with his gut it seems, so you'll see him make a pitching change (based on matchup numbers, which is fine and dandy) here and there that just leaves you scratching your head. At least he's young and still has plenty of time to improve,

 

Tito has an advantage, like Girardi, of having a wealth of talent to handle. Which is why he will never win MOY. Girardi won't either.

Maybe not as Yankee manager, but I'm pretty darn sure Joe won manager of the year as a rookie manager with the lowly Marlins back in '06.

 

There are so many factors that go into winning that answering the "best manager ever" question is impossible. If all teams played with the same players in the same parks at the same times then maybe you could give it a shot. I'd take Tito over almost anyone else at this point, so that counts for something.

When you say you'd take Tito over anyone else this point, I assume you're referring to currently active managers, right? Because historically I can list 10-20 managers off the top of my head who I think are miles away better than Francona, and that list wouldn't even include Torre or Girardi. Just my opinion though. But when it comes to comparing managers throughout history it gets a little tricky due to the different eras. Nonetheless, I'll take a tough, rugged John McGraw, or a Joe McCarthy, a Sparky Anderson, Cito Gaston, or even Bobby Valentine over Francona if I were playing historical "fantasy" baseball. But again, just my opinion. I can certainly see why Sox fans are so pleased with Tito however, as he's without question one of the top 5 (maybe even higher than that now with the retirement of Bobby Cox and Cito Gaston) managers in the game right now.

[Dipre]

Kids are dropping the hammer at the age of 8 these days. I was throwing sliders when I was 10' date=' and it completely mangles your elbow and shoulder. By 18, I had torn my rotator cuff. My kids are going to be throwing fastball/change up until they're 14. No point in blowing out arms to win the American Legion 13 year old state championship. [/b']

 

This. A million times this.

 

And with baseball programs still stubbornly teaching young pitchers Inverted W mechanics, the chances of screwing up young elbow/shoulders increases dramatically.

 

Anyways, i think Tito's really good, but he's not LaRussa or Cox, who could do more with less. That's just my opinion though, since LaRussa is my favorite manager. Kinda like baseball's version of Bill Belichick if you will.

[italstallianion]

Just for the record (to add a bit to Forsyth's point) throwing sliders tends to negatively effect your elbow more, whereas throwing curveballs at a younger age has a more direct effect on the shoulder.

 

By the way, when I was in Little League, if you could throw the ball over the plate, you got to pitch. A curveball was basically a lob that let gravity take it's course.

[SCM33]

Just for the record (to add a bit to Forsyth's point) throwing sliders tends to negatively effect your elbow more, whereas throwing curveballs at a younger age has a more direct effect on the shoulder.

 

By the way, when I was in Little League, if you could throw the ball over the plate, you got to pitch. A curveball was basically a lob that let gravity take it's course.

 

I didnt throw a single slider. Curveballs, curveballs....and more curveballs. I now need TJ surgery if I ever wanted to throw again.