The "Unofficial Pre- Hot Stove (2010)" thread.

[a700hitter]

With a .245 and only 1 HR coming on his first major league pitch, I think Nava will be back in the Independent league before the end of 2011. He is Morgan Burkhart. Check out their stats. They are almost identical except Burkhart had a few more HRs. Both started like a house on fire, but ended up hitting in the .240's after 150 ABs. If he makes our opening day roster, I will take up golfing.

[WhiskeyBreath]

Agreed. Nava has no business being on the 25 man roster next season.

[SCM33]

Is this, or is it not, the same Jason Bay that was dominant for the Pirates before he came to Boston?

 

For the record, I think bringing back Beltre is, at this point, more important than bringing back Victor Martinez. If only because Beltre is more likely to still be playing third base regularly in 4 years, which is the likely minimum length of either player's new contract. I have no problem with letting VMart go for a pick and "figuring something out" at catcher, if you start with the presumption that VMart may not catch for much longer. Beltre on the other hand is elite at his position, at least this year, and if his price isn't a killer I'd like to see if he can do it again a few more times. He's had no real issues with his health and while I don't think he'll be as good as he was this year, he should still be more than serviceable. Vmart is much less likely to still retain his value by year 3.

 

Theo deciding to bring Salty in rather than a similar young 3B suggests to me that he's made the same call. He's putting himself in position to replace at catcher. And it's entirely possible that Lavarnway will force his hand in the next couple years too, he's looking fantastic, especially offensively.

 

 

Why wouldnt Vmart be catching in 3 or 4 years? He did fine this year....actually hes gotten better since the day we got him. Vmart is a better defensive catcher than Salty and if anything is certain, its that Salty will be the one not catching 3 or 4 years from now....he might not even still be professional baseball player in 3 or 4 years. Salty has rotted in the minors due to the fact that he is a brutal defensive catcher and hasnt hit well enough to be on a MLB roster in ANY capacity.

 

I think we are discounting how good Vmart really is. Hes one of the top 3 offensive catchers in baseball. "Figuring something out" with the most important position on the field is not good enough in my opinion.

[SCM33]

Agreed. Nava has no business being on the 25 man roster next season.

 

100% agreed. Its also too bad that McDonald has played himself out of Boston. He has earned regular playing time with another team next year.

[Dipre]

I'm gonna go ahead and call ******** on the penny pinching. With the luxury tax threshold already being breached this year, the Sox should have the capacity to go out, fix the bullpen, re-sign Beltre and V-Mart plus get an OF bat like Werth, even if it comes at the expense of low-balling Ortiz and maybe see him going to another team.

 

Then you can DH Drew against righties with V-Mart catching (Kalish in right, the kid is ready), and have V-Mart DH against most lefties with Tek at the plate and Cameron taking Drew's/Kalish's spot in the OF.

[Station 13]

Nava story ended in chapter 1.

[SCM33]

I'm gonna go ahead and call ******** on the penny pinching. With the luxury tax threshold already being breached this year, the Sox should have the capacity to go out, fix the bullpen, re-sign Beltre and V-Mart plus get an OF bat like Werth, even if it comes at the expense of low-balling Ortiz and maybe see him going to another team.

 

Then you can DH Drew against righties with V-Mart catching (Kalish in right, the kid is ready), and have V-Mart DH against most lefties with Tek at the plate and Cameron taking Drew's/Kalish's spot in the OF.

 

I agree with this. Ive called the FO cheap all season long due to recent transactions since the DiceK signing and I have been called out on it.

 

We will see this offseason. There is not too too much they have to do. Lets see how they spend the money.

 

1. Re-sign the players up for FA (minus maybe Ortiz).

2. Revamp the entire bullpen except Paps and Bard (RP's arent going to break the bank).

3. Sign a bat, and I dont care what position it is......if Ortiz is out of town, we can rotate guys at DH.

4. Sign a SP with the intent of getting Beckett, Lackey and DiceK's ass in gear. If the guy they sign is performing better than Beckett....sorry Joshy, you are in the bullpen and your career downward spiral opens a new chapter..."overpaid underachieving relief pitcher".

[Spudboy]

With a .245 and only 1 HR coming on his first major league pitch' date=' I think Nava will be back in the Independent league before the end of 2011. He is Morgan Burkhart. Check out their stats. They are almost identical except Burkhart had a few more HRs. Both started like a house on fire, but ended up hitting in the .240's after 150 ABs. If he makes our opening day roster, I will take up golfing.[/quote']

 

Agreed. Nava has no business being on the 25 man roster next season.

 

While a great story initially, it's abundantly clear he does not have the defensive skills and can not hit MLB pitching (yet). Back to Pawtucket.

 

He was on the roster out of need. Not because he was ready.

[a700hitter]

It seems that a lot of the same people that wanted to DFA Ortiz in April are ready to let his production walk away next season. We road his back all season from May on, but people are so quick to write him off. Replacing 32 HRs and 100+ RBI is not going to be easy. If we did DFA Ortiz in April and replaced him with Daniel (1 HR) Nava, our offensive production really would have sucked. Because Ortiz is only a DH, he's probably the cheapest 30 HR 100 RBI guy we can find.

[a700hitter]

While a great story initially, it's abundantly clear he does not have the defensive skills and can not hit MLB pitching (yet). Back to Pawtucket.

 

He was on the roster out of need. Not because he was ready.

Doji will have to move on to his next discovery, because we have seen the last of this guy.

[SCM33]

It seems that a lot of the same people that wanted to DFA Ortiz in April are ready to let his production walk away next season. We road his back all season from May on' date=' but people are so quick to write him off. Replacing 32 HRs and 100+ RBI is not going to be easy. If we did DFA Ortiz in April and replaced him with Daniel (1 HR) Nava, our offensive production really would have sucked. Because Ortiz is only a DH, he's probably the cheapest 30 HR 100 RBI guy we can find.[/quote']

 

Hope you are not referring to myself.

 

I never rode him out of anywhere at any time.

 

No glove DH's dont exist anymore. Time to get with times. DH is used to give guys rest now by rotating a handful of guys in and out of the field.

[Dipre]

Doji will have to move on to his next discovery' date=' because we have seen the last of this guy.[/quote']

 

He can keep using Lowrie as his binky.

[Station 13]

Bard is finishing the season like s***. But can't totally blame him as Francona been using him as his mule all year.

 

Time to shut him down and let the Okajima, Richardson, Manuel, etc throw their last pitches for the Red Sox.

[Spudboy]

Doji will have to move on to his next discovery' date=' because we have seen the last of this guy.[/quote']

 

;)

 

Still, Dojji had this guy on his radar while most Sox fans had no idea who he was.

 

I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect Nava is somewhere between Joe LaHoud and Carmen Fanzone.

[Palodios]

Nava needed more time to develop. For a guy who went undrafted, to go from A ball in 2008 to pro-ball in early 2010 is too fast a rise, and he just couldnt keep up.

[SCM33]

Nava needed more time to develop. For a guy who went undrafted' date=' to go from A ball in 2008 to pro-ball in early 2010 is too fast a rise, and he just couldnt keep up.[/quote']

 

Or he had never been that good.

 

He has been over age for every level of ball hes played except now.

 

He put up good numbers in AAA.

 

He was given a chance in the bigs at the age of 27 and flopped.

 

He is what he is, a fringe big leaguer who will but up good numbers in AAA.

[Station 13]

Nava = AAAA

 

Will NOT be a starter up here.

[example1]

I am not big on Fielder. His father's body gave out early. Prince has the same body type. I would not be surprised if he is washed up shortly after Ortiz is done. I see no point in making a big investment in him.

 

They might have the same body type, but Cecil Fielder wasn't nearly the hitter his son is. I thought it worked pretty well when the Sox had an elite, heavy, left-handed, DH-only player in their lineup. Fielder is going to be in his prime and he hates his father.

 

Also, he's a jedi.

[SCM33]

They might have the same body type, but Cecil Fielder wasn't nearly the hitter his son is. I thought it worked pretty well when the Sox had an elite, heavy, left-handed, DH-only player in their lineup. Fielder is going to be in his prime and he hates his father.

 

Also, he's a jedi.

 

They dont have similar bodies.

 

Cecil was leaner in his prime which is concerning. Actually Cecil was about half his size.

[Dojji]

Nava = AAAA

 

Will NOT be a starter up here.

 

A little patience with Nava is in order, he has demonstrated elite level contact skills at every level of the minors and flashed them up here before he got exposed. It is not that unreasonable to hope he can learn how to handle the big league pitchers well enough to be a productive .750 OPS 4th outfielder or so. I agree that ideally Nava ias not a starter, at least until he provides better numbers than the ones he has right now, but I'm not for giving up on the guy when he's showed real flashes of effectiveness in his rookie campaign.

 

It's going to be critical t hat Nava demonstrate an ability to play right field however. If he's just a left fielder in the bigs, then he is indeed AAAA, at least as far as Boston's concerned.

[a700hitter]

A little patience with Nava is in order, he has demonstrated elite level contact skills at every level of the minors and flashed them up here before he got exposed. It is not that unreasonable to hope he can learn how to handle the big league pitchers well enough to be a productive .750 OPS 4th outfielder or so. I agree that ideally Nava ias not a starter, at least until he provides better numbers than the ones he has right now, but I'm not for giving up on the guy when he's showed real flashes of effectiveness in his rookie campaign.

 

It's going to be critical t hat Nava demonstrate an ability to play right field however. If he's just a left fielder in the bigs, then he is indeed AAAA, at least as far as Boston's concerned.

His skill set is very limited. He is below average in every aspect except maybe throwing arm. Today everyone has weak arms, so he is average in that capacity. He is small and will never have the power that you would want from a corner outfielder. My prediction is the minors for him in 2011 with no major league time followed by his release. If you want a Nava jersey, you had better get him now.

 

It is amusing how many posters are rooting for this non-entity to make it with the Sox, while so many are willing to let Ortiz's production walk out the door.

[a700hitter]

They might have the same body type, but Cecil Fielder wasn't nearly the hitter his son is. I thought it worked pretty well when the Sox had an elite, heavy, left-handed, DH-only player in their lineup. Fielder is going to be in his prime and he hates his father.

 

Also, he's a jedi.

When you see Ortiz in person, you realize that he is a very big man, but not fat. Prince is fat.

[Palodios]

They might have the same body type, but Cecil Fielder wasn't nearly the hitter his son is. I thought it worked pretty well when the Sox had an elite, heavy, left-handed, DH-only player in their lineup. Fielder is going to be in his prime and he hates his father.

 

Also, he's a jedi.

 

Cecil also started to struggle at the big league level around age 34/35. Prince is only 26. Unless they give him a 10 year contract, an early departure from the majors isn't going to be the Red Sox's problem.

[a700hitter]

Cecil also started to struggle at the big league level around age 34/35. Prince is only 26. Unless they give him a 10 year contract' date=' an early departure from the majors isn't going to be the Red Sox's problem.[/quote']Cecil was pretty much done by age 33. Prince at age 26 already has had a big decline in his stats since last year. As was pointed out, he is fatter than his Dad.

[Palodios]

Cecil was pretty much done by age 33. Prince at age 26 already has had a big decline in his stats since last year. As was pointed out' date=' he is fatter than his Dad.[/quote']

 

He had .768 OPS when he was 33. Not exceptional, but that's still good enough to contribute to a major league team. But it really doesn't matter, the problem is Fielder's weight issues, not an early decline that could happen seven years from now.

[example1]

Cecil was pretty much done by age 33. Prince at age 26 already has had a big decline in his stats since last year. As was pointed out' date=' he is fatter than his Dad.[/quote']

 

That .401 OBP is too low for ya?

 

The guy had an .883 OPS.

 

We can agree to disagree. I think he's considerably better than his father and has already put up numbers that his father didn't.

[jacksonianmarch]

Fielders only question will be health. The kid swings a much quicker bat from the left side. Cecil could get into one, but Prince is a more well rounded hitter

[a700hitter]

That .401 OBP is too low for ya?

 

The guy had an .883 OPS.

 

We can agree to disagree. I think he's considerably better than his father and has already put up numbers that his father didn't.

Slugging was down from .602 to .482. That is not too shabby, but it is the lowest of his career. The .883 OPS is down from 1.014 and it is below his career average. Lastly, why would we spend a lot of money on Fielder when a supposedly washed up Ortiz exceeded Fielder's production ?

[BSN07]

Slugging was down from .602 to .482. That is not too shabby' date=' but it is the lowest of his career. The .883 OPS is down from 1.014 and it is below his career average. Lastly, why would we spend a lot of money on Fielder when a supposedly washed up Ortiz exceeded Fielder's production ?[/quote']

 

I would wager Prince's drop in slugging is probably right in line with how much slugginh/HR are down over the entire league.

 

Prince's weight concerns me. But it's something that could be remedied with a little work. As far an an early decline, I mean ya his dad went down hill after 33. Fielder may be "fatter", but I would think it's safe to say he is far more athletic then his dad. But if the Sox gave him a 5-6 year deal for Howard type money shouldn't be an issue. Whoever signed him after that would have to worry.

[Will617]

Slugging was down from .602 to .482. That is not too shabby' date=' but it is the lowest of his career. The .883 OPS is down from 1.014 and it is below his career average. Lastly, why would we spend a lot of money on Fielder when a supposedly washed up Ortiz exceeded Fielder's production ?[/quote']

 

Fielder has alternated between very good and, well, kinda good seasons. His slugging (by season) goes .483, .618, .507, .602, .482. I'm sure he'll be fine in a Sox uni, but I'd rather see the Sox signing Pujols or AGon and moving Youkilis to third. If the Sox would be willing to get Fielder, I don't know why they wouldn't just acquire Dunn (who fans more and hits for a little less power, but also plays much better defense at first base), unless they're looking to acquire Fielder to DH, something Dunn is adamant that he won't do.