The "Unofficial Pre- Hot Stove (2010)" thread.

[Yaz Sideburn]

Jed Lowrie? Really?

 

ethier - .286/.353/.489

lowrie - .258/.355/.492

 

ethier's the better hitter but i wouldn't consider either one a middle of the order bat

[mvp 78]

That's less extreme than comparing Ethier to Lowrie.

[jacksonianmarch]

YS, I think you've lost your mind man.

[Yaz Sideburn]

YS' date=' I think you've lost your mind man.[/quote']

 

thank you. that's a compliment coming from someone who thinks dustin moseley is a breath of fresh air for the yankees rotation and brett gardner's their second best offensive player

 

would you care to go back to discussing baseball now?

[jacksonianmarch]

Lowrie has played in 40 games this yr. Ethier is a full time player and has been for 3 yrs. Big difference

[Yaz Sideburn]

Lowrie has played in 40 games this yr. Ethier is a full time player and has been for 3 yrs. Big difference

 

i never said that lowrie was a comparable player to ethier. i said that i wouldn't consider either one a middle of the order bat. big difference

[mvp 78]

Players who can hit 30-100 are generally middle of the order bats and that's what Eithier is.

[jacksonianmarch]

Players who can hit 30-100 are generally middle of the order bats and that's what Eithier is.

 

exactly

[Yaz Sideburn]

ethier's been more of a 25 home run, 80 rbi guy the last 3 years

 

i would consider him more of a complimentary bat like dustin pedroia or jd drew

[jacksonianmarch]

Ethier OPS...

2006- .842

2007- .802

2008- .885

2009- .869

2010- .842.

 

And in fairness to Ethier, he was well into the .900s this yr until he got injured. Regardless, he's a mid .800s OPS hitter with 30 homerun power who has taken a step forward over the last 3 seasons. He's also 28 yrs old, entering his prime.

[Yaz Sideburn]

Navarro showing that he's ML ready.

 

lol, i was thinking the same thing

[jacksonianmarch]

But he's your plan B for next yr

[Yaz Sideburn]

Ethier OPS...

2006- .842

2007- .802

2008- .885

2009- .869

2010- .842.

 

And in fairness to Ethier, he was well into the .900s this yr until he got injured. Regardless, he's a mid .800s OPS hitter with 30 homerun power who has taken a step forward over the last 3 seasons. He's also 28 yrs old, entering his prime.

 

i don't consider a mid .800's ops hitter a middle of the order bat, especially on the red sox

[Yaz Sideburn]

But he's your plan B for next yr

 

 

i'm laughing with you

[jacksonianmarch]

i don't consider a mid .800's ops hitter a middle of the order bat' date=' especially on the red sox[/quote']

 

Ortiz has been a mid to high .800s guy for 3 yrs now and he's been in the 5 hole or 4 hole for the sox. And VMart is right at .800 and he's your #3 hitter

[jacksonianmarch]

 

i'm laughing with you

 

Oh I know. Dojji sure is optimistic

[Yaz Sideburn]

Ortiz has been a mid to high .800s guy for 3 yrs now and he's been in the 5 hole or 4 hole for the sox. And VMart is right at .800 and he's your #3 hitter

 

if half our lineup wasn't on the dl, v-mart would not be our #3 hitter. he was our #3 hitter last year because he had a .900+ ops for us

[Yaz Sideburn]

Oh I know. Dojji sure is optimistic

 

you're being nice. that wouldn't be the word i'd use for it

[Palodios]

Ethier is also the kind of guy who performs better in a better lineup.

 

 

On an unrelated note-- I'm starting to think Doumit might be a good option at C for next season. He costs 5 million next year, with 7.25/8.25 club options for 2012/2013 on the Pirates. Everyone knows that the Pirates don't spend more than 3 million per year on players, and they've been platooning him this year because of his defense. I bet one or two mid level prospects will do it.

[jacksonianmarch]

Doumit is being transitioned off the position due to defense.

[Palodios]

Good hitting catchers don't generally catch well. Its pretty clear what the Sox's strategy is, and with Crawford leaving the Rays next season, base stealing shouldn't be as huge a problem as it has been in the past unless he goes to the Yanks.

[Yaz Sideburn]

Good hitting catchers don't generally catch well. Its pretty clear what the Sox's strategy is' date=' and with Crawford leaving the Rays next season, base stealing shouldn't be as huge a problem as it has been in the past unless he goes to the Yanks.[/quote']

 

to clarify, you mean it's pretty clear what the sox strategy is in not worrying about stolen bases, right?

[Dojji]

you're being nice. that wouldn't be the word i'd use for it

 

"repeatedly, avidly misquoted for the amusement of others" is the term I'd use for it. I never said Navarro was a guy I wanted in the majors next year. Merely that he was a legitimate option if the worst case scenario happens and Scutaro and Lowrie both go down. That sound like "Plan B" to you? It's not any guy I'd ever want as my option as soon as the starter goes down.

 

I don't think I ever called Navarro plan B. I did call him Plan C, which is a whole nother animal. A Plan C player generally is not on a given MLB roster, but from where Navarro will be in AAA, he's a good season offensively away from projecting very nicely as a solid respectable shortstop. Not going to break any offensive records, no, but then I never said he was -- just that he should hit enough to meet the very low standards of tolerable shortstop offense once he gets his feet in the bigs. No one would be foolish enough to project Derek Jeter out of the guy, but he's got the range and arm to be a defensive guy and enough hints of a bat that he could wind up as more, that's all.

 

I don't think it's fair to project Navarro as conservatively as he's being projected here, especially since the judgments are being made based on the first 40 at the moment. The fact is that there is some very positive projectability there. Pointing that out is not optimistic. It is realistic. And Navarro being able to come up sometime at the mid point of next year is not that unrealistic or optimistic either. He has to hit of course but that's true of every prospect, and Navarro made some progress in that arena this year that I'm looking forward to seeing if he can sustain.

 

So ultimately all I'm saying here is that the team rushing a guy up maybe half a year to a year early if we get a situation like we encountered in 2009 and seeing if Navarro could hold down the job is something that could happen before the team decides to go outside the org looking for a warm body. That's not even all that optimistic at all, for pity's sake it's a literal expressed concern about the health of two different shortstops that I even brought it up.

[Yaz Sideburn]

"repeatedly, avidly misquoted for the amusement of others" is the term I'd use for it. I never said Navarro was a guy I wanted in the majors next year. Merely that he was a legitimate option if the worst case scenario happens and Scutaro and Lowrie both go down. That sound like "Plan B" to you? It's not any guy I'd ever want as my option as soon as the starter goes down.

 

I don't think I ever called Navarro plan B. I did call him Plan C, which is a whole nother animal. A Plan C player generally is not on a given MLB roster, but from where Navarro will be in AAA, he's a good season offensively away from projecting very nicely as a solid respectable shortstop. Not going to break any offensive records, no, but then I never said he was -- just that he should hit enough to meet the very low standards of tolerable shortstop offense once he gets his feet in the bigs. No one would be foolish enough to project Derek Jeter out of the guy, but he's got the range and arm to be a defensive guy and enough hints of a bat that he could wind up as more, that's all.

 

I don't think it's fair to project Navarro as conservatively as he's being projected here, especially since the judgments are being made based on the first 40 at the moment. The fact is that there is some very positive projectability there. Pointing that out is not optimistic. It is realistic. And Navarro being able to come up sometime at the mid point of next year is not that unrealistic or optimistic either. He has to hit of course but that's true of every prospect, and Navarro made some progress in that arena this year that I'm looking forward to seeing if he can sustain.

 

So ultimately all I'm saying here is that the team rushing a guy up maybe half a year to a year early if we get a situation like we encountered in 2009 and seeing if Navarro could hold down the job is something that could happen before the team decides to go outside the org looking for a warm body. That's not even all that optimistic at all, for pity's sake it's a literal expressed concern about the health of two different shortstops that I even brought it up.

 

jm does like to misquote people and put words in their mouth but your exact words in regards to who would play shortstop for us if scutaro was hurt next year, were "we don't have a shortage of viable replacement SS between Lowrie and Navarro" and "if [navarro] was needed as a fill-in next year I think he'd be serviceable"

 

that sounds like you were naming navarro as a plan b to me

[Dojji]

I mentioned Lowrie first and considering I've actively campaigned for Lowrie to be the starter even over a healthy Scutaro next year, I didn't think that in context i'd have to mince words like a Congressman in mid-scandal in order to get my point across properly about who I'd like to see playing in which order.

[Yaz Sideburn]

I mentioned Lowrie first and considering I've actively campaigned for Lowrie to be the starter even over a healthy Scutaro next year' date=' I didn't think that in context i'd have to mince words like a Congressman in mid-scandal in order to get my point across properly about who I'd like to see playing in which order.[/quote']

 

you went to pretty great lengths to express how serviceable a replacement you thought navarro would be for sctuaro

[Palodios]

Am I missing something here? Navarro is not ready yet. His .178 OPS clearly proves that. It shouldn't even be a discussion at this point.

[Dojji]

you went to pretty great lengths to express how serviceable a replacement you thought navarro would be for sctuaro

 

Because all I was hearing was about how much he sucked and how much he wasn't even an option. At his stage of development that's a ridiculous position to take. If he holds on his current vector, he'll be ready by the break next year or by 2012 at the latest. Can that change if he does poorly next year? Absolutely, but that's true of every prospect anywhere and so is just something you say when you want to sound smart rather than a meaningful contribution to the conversation.

 

And judging a guy based on his first handful of at bats in the bigs, especially on the basis of irregular playing time, is just silly. In this case his minor league stats are a much better indicator of what you can expect out of them even if they aren't a 1-for-1 translation. I don't think this guy is ever going to be a superstar hitter but the potential is there to be average and he's closer to that potential than you guys are ever going to give him credit for.

[Yaz Sideburn]

Because all I was hearing was about how much he sucked and how much he wasn't even an option. At his stage of development that's a ridiculous position to take.

 

the point that was being debated was whether or not he'd be a quality option for NEXT YEAR. and i think it's safe to say that his play so far in the majors has proven that no, he is not

[ORS]

"repeatedly' date=' avidly misquoted for the amusement of others" is the term I'd use for it.[/quote']

Not so fast with the victim card. While I agree that your point about him being Plan C option was blown up and mischaracterized by others as something greater, you also blatantly pulled a phony justification about his acceptability through MLE calculations right out of your butt. Some of the flack you receive comes from the big target you put on your own back.