Players on red sox you dislike

[Dojji]

The sad thing is when the what have you done for me lately crwod throws away 3 good years because off 2 bad months and start saying the player sucks. That's completely bastardy.

[Spudboy]

The sad thing is when the what have you done for me lately crwod throws away 3 good years because off 2 bad months and start saying the player sucks. That's completely bastardy.

 

Lol. Only two months?

[Spudboy]

But he does have 3 hits tonight.:lol:

[redsoxrules]

Lol. Only two months?

 

did you skip 2 years of watching the Red Sox ?

cause he was pretty awesome in 2008 and 2009

[Keeper]

Going back to his days with the Marlins, I've never liked Beckett.

[TedWilliams101]

The sad thing is when the what have you done for me lately crwod throws away 3 good years because off 2 bad months and start saying the player sucks. That's completely bastardy.

 

So any player who's had a good couple years is completely off-limits from criticism no matter what they are currently doing? That's ******** and you know it. No one is claiming that Drew is a bad player and that this year proves he's a failure or anything. We just are pissed that he's sucked the last 2 months. Hell, ManRam had a great on-field career with the Sox and helped win 2 Championships. Were we all wrong to be pissed at him for all the ******** he pulled?

[SCM33]

Hate Lackey and Atchinson just because I hate players that don't produce.

 

Atchieson has produced something.....when he was never thought of to add anything. Anything they get from him is better than what was expected.

[TheKilo]

I'm sorry but I cannot take an argument or a poster seriously when they discredit the "there were no other options" argument but won't provide any other alternatives. TW, you said yourself how valuable Drew has been over the last four years yet insist that he has not been worth the money - I'll never understand those who get on Drew because he was able to get $14 million per from the Sox FO. That's his agent doing an awesome job above all else...and this is coming from a guy who thinks he's earned his money.

 

Until you provide a viable alternative (and how can Abreu count? Where is he playing right now?) I cannot take the Drew bashing seriously.

 

JD Drew continues to be my litmus test for baseball fans - those who understand the game and it's evolution can appreciate the ballplayer he is. Those who can't, don't get what baseball is today and how the game has evolved.

[TedWilliams101]

I'm sorry but I cannot take an argument or a poster seriously when they discredit the "there were no other options" argument but won't provide any other alternatives. TW, you said yourself how valuable Drew has been over the last four years yet insist that he has not been worth the money - I'll never understand those who get on Drew because he was able to get $14 million per from the Sox FO. That's his agent doing an awesome job above all else...and this is coming from a guy who thinks he's earned his money.

 

Until you provide a viable alternative (and how can Abreu count? Where is he playing right now?) I cannot take the Drew bashing seriously.

 

JD Drew continues to be my litmus test for baseball fans - those who understand the game and it's evolution can appreciate the ballplayer he is. Those who can't, don't get what baseball is today and how the game has evolved.

 

I never said anything about Abrue, so don't put words in my mouth and I'm not arguing about whether he was worth the contract or not. In fact, I specifically said that next year will determine that, right now he's pretty much been worth exactly his contract.

 

The reason I'm pissed with Drew is the fact that he's not performing down the stretch. It's as simple as that. You have already stated that a cold streak, not matter how long, is not a reason to complain about a player and I completely, 100% disagree.

[TheKilo]

A700 mentioned Abreu earlier in the thread. I'm still waiting for your alternative

[jacksonianmarch]

so no other MLB player has slumps ? their just good all the time ? they never have a bad game when the team needs it the most ?

 

Half of his time in Boston has been a so-called "slump". Time to call a spade a spade. He's been mediocre for 2 yrs, injured for 1 and solid for 1.

[Station 13]

Drew hit .198 in August when the team was still in it. People has rights to hate and be upset. Don't crap on them for disliking him. You can appreciate the guy for what he has done in his career. But with Boston it's been mix result. From terrible to good to crap.

[jacksonianmarch]

Drew was 85th in OPS for players who qualified in 2007

Drew didnt qualify in 2008 due to injuries, but would have been 12th

Drew was 21st in OPS in 2009

Drew is 64th in OPS in 2010.

 

The point remains, for 1 injury plagued yr, and 1 full yr out of the 4, he has been "worth" his contract and has been an above average to premier corner OFer. For 2 yrs, he has been below average

[TedWilliams101]

A700 mentioned Abreu earlier in the thread. I'm still waiting for your alternative

 

I never said anything about it being a mistake to sign him. I said that using the "no other option" argument as an excuse was ********. I was FOR signing him as he was the best OF on the market, even considering the risks.

[Yaz Sideburn]

Half of his time in Boston has been a so-called "slump". Time to call a spade a spade. He's been mediocre for 2 yrs' date=' injured for 1 and solid for 1.[/quote']

 

regardless of how you try to spin it, he's been one of the most productive right fielders in baseball over his tenure with the red sox

[bosoxman67]

Scutaro, Lackey, Drew, Cash

[SCM33]

I am not a Drew lover...I am also not a Drew hater. I appreciate the fact that sometimes his abilities are not measured in traditional numbers. I also appreciate the fact the he moves around on the diamond like "the natural". However as Jacksonian pointed out, he has not been an elite player...not like others making that type of money.

 

I think he is being paid more for having an elite skillset, but players with lesser skillsets have outperformed him.

 

I am indifferent towards him. When he produces I dont get overly excited, and when he doesnt I dont get overly excited.

 

There is no question that he had the talent to be one of the games greatest players...it just didnt work out that way. Either way, I wouldnt say he is a bust.

[d-money]

Dice K.Manny Del Carmen although i am happy the bum is gone!Also Papelbum!

[jacksonianmarch]

You truly are d-money.

[example1]

JD Drew continues to be my litmus test for baseball fans - those who understand the game and it's evolution can appreciate the ballplayer he is. Those who can't' date=' don't get what baseball is today and how the game has evolved.[/quote']

 

I appreciate the ball player that he is, but I think it is overstating when some try to paint him as secretly being more than he is. He is worth almost exactly 14m per season. Not much more, not much less. That isn't saying a whole lot, but it isn't ripping on him either.

 

I would say that his deal as a whole has been neutral. He hasn't been a huge expense for the club and he hasn't been a winning lottery ticket either.

 

Given some of the "luck" (or talent or skill or whatever) the Sox have had with their other acquisitions (via draft, trade or FA) I wouldn't put him near the top in terms of value like I would guys like Pedroia or Lester or Papelbon. At the same time, he's not a complete bust like Lugo or Renteria were becoming before they were moved.

 

Kilo is right though, it is a litmus test. Those who can at least understand why Drew is worth as much as he is "get it"; those who don't, don't.

 

He is also a great example of why the FO is so goddamn hesitant to get into big FA contracts. Drew, at 14m, is just worth it. At 15m he's less worth it, and at 16, 17 18 million he's not worth it. This is why the Sox seem to "squabble" over one or two million per year on guys like Damon, Pedro, Teixeira, etc., We can debate the merits of those moves somewhere else, but the point is that the cost/value ratio is actually important for the team and merely breaking even isn't the ultimate goal for the franchise. The ultimate goal is to get players whose value far exceeds their cost. Even if they are being paid $20m it is possible to outproduce that in value to the club.

[jacksonianmarch]

I think you have to take him season to season. He's been worth $14 million+ in one season of his 4 in Boston. Does one incredible year outdo one injury filled and 2 mediocre yrs?

[TheKilo]

No, you look at the value overall. E1 is right, he's been worth the money during his entire tenure looking at it overall.

 

I disagree with him when he says those who defend Drew overstate his abilities. Truth is, all I'm doing is showing that he HAS been worth the $14 million per and that he's not overpaid.

 

When he has good seasons, should he be paid more? Last year, could you not make the case that he could have been paid $18 million and it would have been worth it? $20 million? No one ever looks at it in that light.

[jacksonianmarch]

Yeah, but Kilo, the overproduction in 1 season doesnt translate into another. And I find it VERY hard to believe that after this season, he's been worth $14 mil per season over the 4 yrs he's been in Boston. Very hard to believe. His sub .800OPS at a COF spot is average at best and he's done that for 2 of the 4 seasons. One of the seasons, he only played 109 games. How can one season justify the entire contract?

[example1]

Their assessment of him at 14m per season was just about right, as was his agents assessment that he was worth that much. That's the top of what he should be paid, ever, in my opinion. Yes, in good seasons when he plays consistently he might be worth more, but this isn't a guy who comes to work each and every day and punches his time card and stays late finishing his paperwork. He just isn't. I'm not slamming him as broken or weak, because he isn't, he's just not the Type A personality who has to be the best at everything he does. He got his money through FA and I don't begrudge him for it.

 

He might even be a person who has a life that he enjoys outside of baseball (gasp) and likes doing other things and sees baseball as a job. That's how I see my professional life too, so I don't blame him for it at all. When all is said and done he will have had a solid MLB career, which is saying a lot. I think Bobby Abreu is actually a solid comparison in terms of the type of player/career he has had.

[jacksonianmarch]

Okay, put some value to a season....

 

2007- .270/.373/.423- JD Drew's OPS was 38th in the bigs amongst OFers with 400PAs or more. 38th, right behind Randy Winn. I'd put that worth at about $6 million

 

2008- .280/.408/.519- Drew's OPS was 7th amongst OFers with 400PAs or more. Right behind Carlos Lee. Lee makes $19 mil a season, and Drew played in 67% of his teams games, so 2/3 of $19 mil is $12.7mil

 

2009- .279/.392/.522- Drew's OPS was 5th amongst OFers with 400PAs or more. He was right up there with Matt Holliday, who makes about $17 million per season. So, let's call his worth that yr at $17 million

 

2010- .254/.346/.444- Drew's OPS is 27th in the bigs amongst OFers with 400PA or more. He is surrounded by mostly scrub players and part timers, but Nick Markakis is right around him. Markakis is making $7 mil this yr, so lets call it that.

 

2007- $6 million

2008- $12.7 million

2009- $17 million

2010- $7 million

 

Add em all up... his worth is about $10.6 mil per season. This is all ballpark and there are plenty of guys who are paid more than him below him, and plenty of guys paid less than him above him. But I would put his worth in the $10 mil range rather than $14 mil.

[Dipre]

Or we can use FanGraphs, whose dollar value system is much more more complex and accurate than "He had a similar season to X, so let's call him that" and measures defense as well.

 

2007: 7.2 mill.

 

2008: 18.2 mill.

 

2009: 21.6 mill.

 

2010: 10.4 mill.

 

It brings us to a grand total of 57.4 million, which divided into four averages exactly 14.35 million per, aka Drew's actual salary.

[example1]

Or we can use FanGraphs, whose dollar value system is much more more complex and accurate than "He had a similar season to X, so let's call him that" and measures defense as well.

 

2007: 7.2 mill.

 

2008: 18.2 mill.

 

2009: 21.6 mill.

 

2010: 10.4 mill.

 

It brings us to a grand total of 57.4 million, which divided into four averages exactly 14.35 million per, aka Drew's actual salary.

 

Yep. I think FanGraphs is better than Jackos value system. Duh.

 

Jacko weakly looked at other players with roughly the same OPS and their cost and said that was roughly their value. We need not explain to a doctor why that's a weak argument. However, if we need to then 1) make sure to cancel all of my future appointments with the doctor and 2) there are numerous reasons, including the random nature of the salaries those players get (Matt Hollidays value is suddenly the amount the Cardinals were willing to pay? Nick Markakis's value is suddenly what the Orioles were willing to pay a player who has yet to reach FA?) All of this presupposes that other teams are paying their players accurately and the Red Sox are not.

 

It also shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what seems to be a cardinal rule of valuing players; namely, FAs are worth different things to different teams based on what the wins they offer will provide for that team. A-Rod's $20m+ salary for Texas wasn't worth it if the team finished in last place, but it is worth it for the Yankees if it pushes them over the threshold into the playoffs year in and year out. We've been over this before and it is a pretty well established way of thinking about player value.

 

Also, lets stop using OPS as some sort of equivalent measure between players. We all know that one point in OBP is more valuable than one point in SLG, right? Or do we need to go over that again?

 

I think there's a lot of conflated arguments here. Saying that Drew has been worth $14m isn't the same as saying that he is worth $14m (as in "he will continue to produce at $14m" or "he will assuredly be worth $14m"). In my eyes, the fact that he has "only" been worth an average of $14m means that his contract has been an even-sum game for the franchise, not a net win or loss. I would bet that given the opportunity again they wouldn't offer that much, knowing what they know now. They want net gains from their players, not neutral outcomes.

[jacksonianmarch]

And fangraphs is the be all and end all? I agree that my assessment was completely subjective, but so is the fangraph one. And do you really, really think that JD Drew and his .787OPS as a corner OFer is worth $10 million this yr? Really? That is the flaw in the argument there. And, how can a guy be worth $18.2 million in a season where they miss 1/3 of the yr? Really? So if he were healthy and played all 162, he'd be worth $27.3 million? That's absolutely absurd

[ORS]

While it may be flawed, and I agree that it is, mainly for the types of examples you state, and there are many of them, it's not subjective. It's a formula. So many dollars per WAR. The formula may be wrong, but it's objective.

[jacksonianmarch]

It may be objective, but it doesnt fit this economy and it doesnt fit his performance. A .787OPS corner OFer isnt worth $10 million unless he has elite speed or elite defense. Drew isnt a burner and he plays good but not elite defense.