8/12 @ Toronto

[Spudboy]

You do realize that we did end up winning that war?

 

What?:blink::blink:

[Yaz Sideburn]

What?:blink::blink:

 

i wasn't going to be the one to say anything because sports threads rarely turn out well when they get into politics, but i had the same reaction in my head

[Palodios]

I know it was before my time, but weren't there big issues around here when people talked politics?

[Lester82]

1. Wacko Jacko is married.

 

Poor girl.

 

2. Wow.

[Lester82]

The nail in the coffin for a team that is four games out of a playoff spot?

 

Logic isn't Jacko, he had the team not making the playoffs before any injuries. Nail in coffin before May. When the injuries hit, he was pretty giddy. The Red Sox were getting alittle too scary good for him.

 

Considering he kept claiming this was the "least scary team since '04" over and over.

[Dojji]

What?:blink::blink:

 

Yeah, we did win the war. Saddam Hussein's regime is no longer in power in Iraq. The aftermath of the war is much more murky, and we may have lost significant ground there, you can debate that until you're blue in the face, but at least Saddam isn't around to make his argument.

 

Now, my personal opinion is that even with all that went wrong in Iraq, it's a better situation there for now than it ever was before we went in there. I mean, they had something that superficially resembles free elections, and the various tribes and factions that make up Iraq actually have been forced to talk to each other instead of going right to the shooting-people part! Little things like that that we take for granted in civilized countries and the Iraqis have to be taught how to do because they've never had that experience. In the end, even without that, Saddam killed more Iraqis than the internecine violence in the country is ever likely to.

 

But ultimately? That's just MHO. Others will probably disagree, and that's their right.

 

Oh, and for the record? While they didn't find them in the quantity and readiness that they expected before the war, the coalition troops did unearth a number of Saddam's WMD's, both in Iraq and a few in the neighboring countries he shipped them to in the days leading up to the war (mostly Syria). The media likes to ignore this fact or downplay it -- but the fact that there were even a few WMD's -- heck, the fact that they ejected the inspectors whether there were WMD's or not -- would have been grounds for invasion under the terms of the treaty. You can not like war, heck, I don't like war, probably only a handful of people who don't really know what war is actually like it, but this particuar war was no more unjust than all war is unjust by nature.

[a700hitter]

Logic isn't Jacko' date=' he had the team not making the playoffs before any injuries. Nail in coffin before May. When the injuries hit, he was pretty giddy. The Red Sox were getting alittle too scary [u']good[/u] for him.

 

Considering he kept claiming this was the "least scary team since '04" over and over.

This team has the potential to be very dangerous in the post season. The problem is that they probably will not make it to the post season due to injuries and other reasons. Yes, I said other reasons.

 

The failure of this team is not due entirely to injuries. Sure they are a major factor-- by themselves they are probably a deciding factor. In the end, we will probably miss the playoffs by a small handful of games. Had it not been for the injuries, they certainly would have closed the gap. Despite the injuries, I think this team still could have made the playoffs, but other mistakes were made. Our third base coach easily cost this team 3-4 victories with his terrible decision making. A third base coach should never have such a negative impact on a team. If we miss the playoffs by 3 or 4 games, Bogar shares the blame and that is sad. There were a number of games early in the season that were handed to inferior opposing teams due to bad defense, bone headed plays and general sloppy play. Good teams let bad teams give away games, not the other way around. Sloppy, fundamentally unsound play against inferior opponents leads to a conclusion that the 2010 Sox are not a very good team. They are a very talented team, but not a very good team. There is a difference. Their record against the weakest teams bears this out. Injuries is not an excuse for that. They have themselves to blame for the poor performance against those teams. If they had taken care of business against those teams, they would have 3 or 4 more wins.

 

The FO doesn't escape responsibility either. They did virtually nothing to build a bullpen during the season even though the need for a left handed pitcher was obvious in April. The bullpen cost us 3 or 4 games more than it should have.

 

As the string of long term devastating occurred, they did nothing helpful to reinforce the team. We have seen weeks and months of AAAA players, who have performed admirably, but we depended too much on them. The acquisition of Patterson was a joke. Expecting Cash to be the starting catcher for weeks after Tek and VMart went down was also a very poor decision. They acted much too slowly to get Salty or someone else to step in. We went for a good couple of weeks rolling out lineups with 4 or more substandard ML hitters. Yes, blame the injuries. The FO could not have replaced everyone, but one more good bat might have changed the outcome of a couple or 3 of those games. That 2 week tailspin was devastating to the team's prospects. Yes, the FO gets a share of blame too. Injuries were the major reason, but they are part of the game and they do not excuse everything else.

 

All that being said, if this team gets hot and gets a few breaks, they will make it to the post season, and none of this will matter. We need Pedroia to come out of the gates smoking next week. That could be the jump start we need.

[Dojji]

Right with you on Bogar and the bullpen, but not the FO. One of the maddening things about trying to be a perennial contender is that you only mortgage the future to win now to a certain point and not further. If other teams weren't asking for reasonable prices for their talent, the FO is off the hook for failing to acquire it. I can't think of a LHRP that changed hands this year that Boston should have obtained -- I don't think Jeremy Affeldt would have held up in the AL East do you? After the flurry of closer signings last year, the relief market was amazingly quiet this year.

 

Basically, any upgrades to the bullpen this year almost had to be homegrown, and while the bullpen WAS mediocre this year, it wasn't because Theo didn't try a lot of different stuff to make it work. We must have had 12-15 different RP's pitch innings for us this year, even if you don't count Hall.

[Palodios]

While I agree that there weren't a ton of options... I do think there was more the FO could have done. This team has had so many holes, and its tried to fill them all from within, but were Kevin Cash/Eric Patterson the absolute best options at C/2B? Even if it was for just short term, there is a lot of garbage out there that smells a little nicer, and wouldn't have cost very much at all. Kevin Cash simply should not have played 20 games here, period.

 

How long did it take before they realized Okajima was ineffective? I don't think its too much to ask for to get relief pitchers with a 4.00 ERA. There are 88 relief pitchers in the majors with an ERA under 4.00, and they couldn't get one of them for a fair price?

[Dojji]

The problem with Oki is that he's had rough patches before, even monthlong ones. Remember August of '07? I do, no matter how hard I try.

 

It can take a long time to tell the difference between a slump and a guy who's lost his skill altogether.

 

88 pitchers with a sub-4 ERA is less than about 3 per team. That means most of those guys were already the closers and setup men of their teams. I actually find it fairly easy to believe they couldn't get one for a fair price. Or at least, one that they thought would succeed in Boston, which is a discrete subset of that 88 and a relatively small one. Knowing we were looking specifically for an LHRP makes it even harder, and I wouldn't be surprised if we were down to single digits, and if you have to look for non-contenders who might trade a closer or setup man, you're narrowing the focus still further.

[redsoxrules]

This team has the potential to be very dangerous in the post season. The problem is that they probably will not make it to the post season due to injuries and other reasons. Yes, I said other reasons.

 

The failure of this team is not due entirely to injuries. Sure they are a major factor-- by themselves they are probably a deciding factor. In the end, we will probably miss the playoffs by a small handful of games. Had it not been for the injuries, they certainly would have closed the gap. Despite the injuries, I think this team still could have made the playoffs, but other mistakes were made. Our third base coach easily cost this team 3-4 victories with his terrible decision making. A third base coach should never have such a negative impact on a team. If we miss the playoffs by 3 or 4 games, Bogar shares the blame and that is sad. There were a number of games early in the season that were handed to inferior opposing teams due to bad defense, bone headed plays and general sloppy play. Good teams let bad teams give away games, not the other way around. Sloppy, fundamentally unsound play against inferior opponents leads to a conclusion that the 2010 Sox are not a very good team. They are a very talented team, but not a very good team. There is a difference. Their record against the weakest teams bears this out. Injuries is not an excuse for that. They have themselves to blame for the poor performance against those teams. If they had taken care of business against those teams, they would have 3 or 4 more wins.

 

The FO doesn't escape responsibility either. They did virtually nothing to build a bullpen during the season even though the need for a left handed pitcher was obvious in April. The bullpen cost us 3 or 4 games more than it should have.

 

As the string of long term devastating occurred, they did nothing helpful to reinforce the team. We have seen weeks and months of AAAA players, who have performed admirably, but we depended too much on them. The acquisition of Patterson was a joke. Expecting Cash to be the starting catcher for weeks after Tek and VMart went down was also a very poor decision. They acted much too slowly to get Salty or someone else to step in. We went for a good couple of weeks rolling out lineups with 4 or more substandard ML hitters. Yes, blame the injuries. The FO could not have replaced everyone, but one more good bat might have changed the outcome of a couple or 3 of those games. That 2 week tailspin was devastating to the team's prospects. Yes, the FO gets a share of blame too. Injuries were the major reason, but they are part of the game and they do not excuse everything else.

 

All that being said, if this team gets hot and gets a few breaks, they will make it to the post season, and none of this will matter. We need Pedroia to come out of the gates smoking next week. That could be the jump start we need.

 

dont forget about papelblown , he's blown 6 saves already this year . he's cost this team quite a few games . I'm not expecting him to be perfect but he should not have 6 blown saves at this point into a season

[a700hitter]

While I agree that there weren't a ton of options... I do think there was more the FO could have done. This team has had so many holes, and its tried to fill them all from within, but were Kevin Cash/Eric Patterson the absolute best options at C/2B? Even if it was for just short term, there is a lot of garbage out there that smells a little nicer, and wouldn't have cost very much at all. Kevin Cash simply should not have played 20 games here, period.

 

How long did it take before they realized Okajima was ineffective? I don't think its too much to ask for to get relief pitchers with a 4.00 ERA. There are 88 relief pitchers in the majors with an ERA under 4.00, and they couldn't get one of them for a fair price?

It drove me crazy that they actually thought Schoenweiss and Embry were options early in the season. I saw Schoenweiss a lot when he was with the Mets. He stinks. Even the mets won't touch him anymore and they stink. Schoenweiss is so bad that I was rooting for Embree to take his place. The FO approach to getting the lefty was to go to the Dollar store to get damaged and spoiled goods. It was a mistake. If cost the team wins. Period.

[Dojji]

dont forget about papelblown ' date=' he's blown 6 saves already this year . he's cost this team quite a few games . I'm not expecting him to be perfect but he should not have 6 blown saves at this point into a season[/quote']

 

Pardon the play on words, but the concern about Paps is overblown. He's had a tough year, sure, but he's still no worse than average at SV%. The most you can say is that he isn't the overwhelmingly strong asset he usually is. He's seriously spoiled us up to this point, but anyone who was paying attention knew that a bad year would happen at some point -- they happen to EVERYONE.

[a700hitter]

Right with you on Bogar and the bullpen, but not the FO. One of the maddening things about trying to be a perennial contender is that you only mortgage the future to win now to a certain point and not further. If other teams weren't asking for reasonable prices for their talent, the FO is off the hook for failing to acquire it. I can't think of a LHRP that changed hands this year that Boston should have obtained -- I don't think Jeremy Affeldt would have held up in the AL East do you? After the flurry of closer signings last year, the relief market was amazingly quiet this year.

 

Basically, any upgrades to the bullpen this year almost had to be homegrown, and while the bullpen WAS mediocre this year, it wasn't because Theo didn't try a lot of different stuff to make it work. We must have had 12-15 different RP's pitch innings for us this year, even if you don't count Hall.

Saying that the FO bears responsibility is not a condemnation. It is part of being accountable. Papelbon will end up with 3 or 4 more blown saves than usual. If we miss the playoffs by 3 or 4 games, he bears responsibility too. Does that mean that I think he stinks and I want him off the team? No, I'd like to see him at the end of the bullpen with Bard until we start having to pay Bard big $. The same thing with the FO. I think they do an overall fine job, but with the 2010 club they seriously miscalculated on their balancing act of winning now vs. long term. They should have done more. I don't think they need to do a lot more, but let's face it, they did nothing.

[Dojji]

I think we all knew the FO wasn't going into this season with making the playoffs being its usual high priority. We've been talking about a step back since April after all, and that was before the injuries hit.

 

It's a calculated risk. Sometimes you have to take a step back to be in position to make a big jump forward.

[Palodios]

88 pitchers with a sub-4 ERA is less than about 3 per team. That means most of those guys were already the closers and setup men of their teams. I actually find it fairly easy to believe they couldn't get one for a fair price. Or at least, one that they thought would succeed in Boston, which is a discrete subset of that 88 and a relatively small one. Knowing we were looking specifically for an LHRP makes it even harder, and I wouldn't be surprised if we were down to single digits, and if you have to look for non-contenders who might trade a closer or setup man, you're narrowing the focus still further.

 

3 per team means more than just closers and setup men. I'm talking 7th inning guys, and that's exactly what this team needed. And no, it didn't matter if that was a LHP, any of those 88 guys would have been an upgrade. They could have made any number of trades to upgrade the team at OF, IF, bullpen, catcher for short term.

 

Cash had 0 rbis and 1 run his entire 20 game stay here. Salty hit that production in his first full game, and they got him for just about nothing. I think that says a lot about their approach to the trade deadline.

 

 

I think we all knew the FO wasn't going into this season with making the playoffs being its usual high priority. We've been talking about a step back since April after all' date=' and that was before the injuries hit.[/quote']

 

Had they made it their priority, this team would be going to the playoffs.

[a700hitter]

I think we all knew the FO wasn't going into this season with making the playoffs being its usual high priority. We've been talking about a step back since April after all, and that was before the injuries hit.

 

It's a calculated risk. Sometimes you have to take a step back to be in position to make a big jump forward.

Ah, the bridge season. I still don't understand what is on the other side of the bridge or if 2011 will still be part of the bridge. Who are the big impact players that the organization expects will be with the big club next season or 2012 who will take this team back to championship caliber. I'm not seeing the potential.

[Palodios]

Well, I do see the potential for the future. They're dropping a lot of deadweight contracts--35 million that has no real value-- at the end of the season, they're not losing any major players until the end of the 2012 season. And while the next wave of prospects thins out after Kalish, but between Lowrie, Bowden, Lars, Doubront... someone is going to turn out to be an effective long term option.

 

But that doesn't mean they should have just given up on this season.

[Dojji]

Don't forget Anthony Rizzo.

 

And I don't think they gave up on this season, they just didn't decide to sacrifice major franchise assets this year and couldn't pull a lesser deal that made an impact.

[a700hitter]

Well, I do see the potential for the future. They're dropping a lot of deadweight contracts--35 million that has no real value-- at the end of the season, they're not losing any major players until the end of the 2012 season. And while the next wave of prospects thins out after Kalish, but between Lowrie, Bowden, Lars, Doubront... someone is going to turn out to be an effective long term option.

 

But that doesn't mean they should have just given up on this season.

I understand that payroll money will be freed up after this season, but at the beginning of this season we were reading and hearing that the FO was expecting a new crop of young players to hit the big club by 2012. That's what I am not seeing. After Kalish and possibly Dubront, I'm not seeing a lot of promise. I am certainly not seeing the type of promise that would convince the FO that 2010 and 2011 are just bridge seasons.

[Palodios]

There has been a gap in the Red Sox prospect system since 2008-- in that time, Bard is really the only player who made his debut and made a significant impact. In the next two years, the majority of the team's best prospects will be on the verge of breaking through to the majors, and while I'm pessimistic about most of them, Kalish, Lowrie, Doubront have shown some potential already, and atleast two or three more will work out. Who ever thought that Buchholz would have the best ERA in the AL midway through August? At the beginning of the season I was all ready to giftwrap him to the Padres.

 

I still think they could have made some moves this trade deadline, but the one place this team has succeeded without blame is their farm system.

[a700hitter]

There has been a gap in the Red Sox prospect system since 2008-- in that time, Bard is really the only player who made his debut and made a significant impact. In the next two years, the majority of the team's best prospects will be on the verge of breaking through to the majors, and while I'm pessimistic about most of them, Kalish, Lowrie, Doubront have shown some potential already, and atleast two or three more will work out. Who ever thought that Buchholz would have the best ERA in the AL midway through August? At the beginning of the season I was all ready to giftwrap him to the Padres.

 

I still think they could have made some moves this trade deadline, but the one place this team has succeeded without blame is their farm system.

I am jst wondering who the new crop will be. We heard about Buchholz, Pedroia, Lester, Ellsbury and Papelbon long before they got here and the high hopes that the organization had for them. Bard was considered a bust for a while until he righted his ship.

 

I don't see the same type of optimism from the FO in the press about any of the prospects other than Kelly and Kalish, and Kelly will not be here next season. I think the Westmoreland thing had a big impact on the organizational plans going forward. He was at the head of the list of guys who they expected to burst onto the scene in the next year or two. Without him, the foundation on the other side of the bridge doesn't look very firm.

[Palodios]

The thing is, they don't need a huge amount of prospects to pan out, they just need a few. Of their young guys, they pretty much only lose one or two a year-- Papelbon 2012, Youk 2013, Lester + Ells 2014, Pedroia+Bard 2015, and Buch is in there somewhere depending on super two status. And that's IF they don't resign them. They're having a hard time finding a big bat from within, but they're fortunate enough to have enough money to get one on the market. I don't see any problems with this team that can't be fixed by money or the guys coming up.

[a700hitter]

The thing is' date=' they don't need a huge amount of prospects to pan out, they just need a few. Of their young guys, they pretty much only lose one or two a year-- Papelbon 2012, Youk 2013, Lester + Ells 2014, Pedroia+Bard 2015, and Buch is in there somewhere depending on super two status. And that's IF they don't resign them. They're having a hard time finding a big bat from within, but they're fortunate enough to have enough money to get one on the market. I don't see any problems with this team that can't be fixed by money or the guys coming up.[/quote']

I agree with this. At the beginning of the year, the talk about a bridge year or two made it seem like there would be a wholesale changing of the guard in 2011-2012. I can see that we have prospects that can be worked in over the next several years in an incremental manner. I just don't see a whole crop maturing at the same time that will burst onto the scene at the same time. That's why I didn't understand the reference to a "bridge". It seems to me that it should be business as usual-- a good competitive team that incrementally adds players from the system and free agency to replace other players that leave the organization.

[redsoxrules]

Pardon the play on words' date=' but the concern about Paps is overblown. He's had a tough year, sure, but he's still no worse than average at SV%. The most you can say is that he isn't the overwhelmingly strong asset he usually is. He's seriously spoiled us up to this point, but anyone who was paying attention knew that a bad year would happen at some point -- they happen to EVERYONE.[/quote']

 

do we need to bring up these stats again ?

 

2007 .77 WHIP k/9 12.96 BB/9 2.31

2008 . 95WHIP k/9 10 BB/9 1.04

2009 .1.15 WHIP k/9 10.06 BB/9 3.18

2010 1.15 WHIP k/9 8.15 BB/9 3.44

 

not to mention Paps has been lucky with his BABIP this year , I expect his numbers to worse than they are by the end of the season

 

this is not a good trend

 

if the trend would STOP as it is now , then I can live with it cause its not that bad aside from his BB/9 . but the question is .... is the trend going to stop?

[a700hitter]

do we need to bring up these stats again ?

 

2007 .77 WHIP k/9 12.96 BB/9 2.31

2008 . 95WHIP k/9 10 BB/9 1.04

2009 .1.15 WHIP k/9 10.06 BB/9 3.18

2010 1.15 WHIP k/9 8.15 BB/9 3.44

 

not to mention Paps has been lucky with his BABIP this year , I expect his numbers to worse than they are by the end of the season

 

this is not a good trend

 

if the trend would STOP as it is now , then I can live with it cause its not that bad aside from his BB/9 . but the question is .... is the trend going to stop?

How is Jonathan Broxton trending after yesterday's game? Probably not too good. Here's what people tend to overlook. This Red Sox team is a much better team with Papelbon and Bard at the end of the bullpen than with just one or the other. I am dubious about the opportunity to use Paps money to upgrade another position to equal or exceed what will be an enormous downgrade in the pen. Papelbon will be gone soon enough when Bard can demand the big $. Until then, I'd prefer to go with both horses.

[redsoxrules]

How is Jonathan Broxton trending after yesterday's game? Probably not too good. Here's what people tend to overlook. This Red Sox team is a much better team with Papelbon and Bard at the end of the bullpen than with just one or the other. I am dubious about the opportunity to use Paps money to upgrade another position to equal or exceed what will be an enormous downgrade in the pen. Papelbon will be gone soon enough when Bard can demand the big $. Until then' date=' I'd prefer to go with both horses.[/quote']

 

 

what does what Broxton have to do with this? I never mentioned his name .

 

I want papelbon on this team but not at 10 million a year . I'd be fine with 7-8 mil a year .

but you know how Paps is . he keeps running his mouth that he wants Rivera type money .

so I doubt he stays on this team

[Dojji]

this is not a good trend

 

So what? at the end of that trend you're still left with a quality pitcher. So what's your point? Assuming that a trend will continue in exactly that direction with no variation for an entire career is idiotic, so I really hope that's not what you were trying to establish.

[redsoxrules]

So what? at the end of that trend you're still left with a quality pitcher. So what's your point? Assuming that a trend will continue in exactly that direction with no variation for an entire career is idiotic' date=' so I really hope that's not what you were trying to establish.[/quote']

 

and its idiotic to give him a 12+million dollar deal that you insist they do

[a700hitter]

what does what Broxton have to do with this? I never mentioned his name .

 

I want papelbon on this team but not at 10 million a year . I'd be fine with 7-8 mil a year .

but you know how Paps is . he keeps running his mouth that he wants Rivera type money .

so I doubt he stays on this team

I brought up Broxton, because he too is a great closer that has had some real stinkers this season. People get so overboard reactionary when Papelbon has a bad game. They all have some stinkers (maybe with the exception of Rivera). You say that you are not willing to pay Paps $10 per year, but for that same $10 million can the FO improve the team in other areas that will more than make up for the tremendous loss in the bullpen from letting him go. That is the value decision that the FO will make. They are not going to decide not to pay Papelbon because he is running his mouth and they have Bard. If Papelbon brings more value to the team at $10 million than they can find on the market at other positions for that $10 million, then the sound business judgment would be to keep him.