What Happens with Lowell?

[Dojji]

When they call you a "finalist" then either they're using very imprecise language or it means there's a distinct offer on the table.

[yankees228]

When they call you a "finalist" then either they're using very imprecise language or it means there's a distinct offer on the table.

 

It could very well mean they were a finalist because Pavano had met with them. Until you show me that an offer was made, you'd have to admit that your point about him isn't factual.

 

What I remember about the Pavano situation is him going around to about a dozen teams, talking about everything, but not exactly fielding concrete offers. After gathering all the information about all the interested teams, he decided who he wanted to play for, and then negotiated just with that team (the Yankees).

[Dojji]

This is pointless. you're focusing on one little technicality in a bigger argument in order to avoid dealing with the bigger argument.

 

When New York nearly invariably wins when they and Boston go head to head for a player, that is NOT a small advantage.

[yankees228]

This is pointless. you're focusing on one little technicality in a bigger argument in order to avoid dealing with the bigger argument.

 

When New York nearly invariably wins when they and Boston go head to head for a player, that is NOT a small advantage.

 

You brought up Pavano, not me. If you want to talk about trades and each team being interested in someone, then it's relatively even on those counts. That's why it was necessary for me to debate you on Pavano, to prove a larger point.

 

You can talk about trades, or one team being interested in someone, but there really have only been three free agents that both teams have bid on this decade. This is a fact. Additionally, especially with Contreras, there were a lot of other factors involved besides money (many of them being made public in all three cases), all of which you choose to ignore because they don't fit your argument.

 

The Yankees have an advantage, no question about it. Additionally, they do have the ability (at times), if they want, to get a guy no matter what. I would say this happened twice during the decade, with Sabathia and Giambi. The Yankees were going to get them, no matter what.

 

But here's where the advantage is overstated. There have been a ton of guys over the past decade that the Yankees have wanted, but haven't ended up acquiring. They have limits, just like every other team, but their limits happen to be higher. I get it, it's easier to look at the Yankees, who spend the most money, and discuss them as if they have infinite funds. It's easy to discuss them as if they get whoever they want. But the facts, which are indisputable, disagree with this notion.

 

I'll say it once more, so it's clear. The Yankees have an advantage over every other team in Major League Baseball. They have a larger advantage over some teams than they do over others. There is no question about it. But the advantage isn't infinite, and in some cases, it isn't even that large.

 

Also, I'd like to touch once more on the Yankees vs. Red Sox aspect of the discussion. The Yankees money plays a role, no question, but there are probably other factors at work. Can I prove these, or speak about them as if they are fact? No I can't. But I can't do this for the same reason you guys can't claim that the Yankees would just top every bid that the Red Sox put out there.

[yankees228]

And here's the part that's too bad. Most of you view my posts on the Yankees' financial situation as just a dumb Yankees' fan trying to downplay the Yankees' financial advantage. But every single one of my posts on the topic are filled with facts and reasonable conjecture. I never claim that they don't have an advantage. The only points I ever argue are when I feel someone overstates their advantage, which happens quite often in my opinion.

[Dipre]

And here's the part that's too bad. Most of you view my posts on the Yankees' financial situation as just a dumb Yankees' fan trying to downplay the Yankees' financial advantage. But every single one of my posts on the topic are filled with facts and reasonable conjecture. I never claim that they don't have an advantage. The only points I ever argue are when I feel someone overstates their advantage' date=' which happens quite often in my opinion.[/quote']

 

Not when your payroll is higher than the combined payrolls of two top 10 payroll teams.

[VA Sox Fan]

And here's the part that's too bad. Most of you view my posts on the Yankees' financial situation as just a dumb Yankees' fan trying to downplay the Yankees' financial advantage. But every single one of my posts on the topic are filled with facts and reasonable conjecture. I never claim that they don't have an advantage. The only points I ever argue are when I feel someone overstates their advantage' date=' which happens quite often in my opinion.[/quote']

 

Personally, I'm glad you are back. You add balance and intelligence to this forum. Meant to say something earlier. Even though you are a NYY fan and all....

[ORS]

Also' date=' I'd like to touch once more on the Yankees vs. Red Sox aspect of the discussion. The Yankees money plays a role, no question,[b'] but there are probably other factors at work[/b]. Can I prove these, or speak about them as if they are fact? No I can't. But I can't do this for the same reason you guys can't claim that the Yankees would just top every bid that the Red Sox put out there.

The largest of which is a desire to win a championship. The fact that they are able to operate at a budget level that dwarves even the 2nd place spenders enables them to be perrenial favorites, so the primary "other" factor is directly related to their advantage.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Lowell needs to play, Ortiz needs to vanish.

 

 

/responding to the actual thread topic, which the discussion appears to have moved far away from

[Spudboy]

Personally' date=' I'm glad you are back. You add balance and intelligence to this forum. Meant to say something earlier. Even though you are a NYY fan and all....[/quote']

 

Did he go somewhere?

 

Never the less, I agree VA.

[yankees228]

The largest of which is a desire to win a championship. The fact that they are able to operate at a budget level that dwarves even the 2nd place spenders enables them to be perrenial favorites' date=' so the primary "other" factor is directly related to their advantage.[/quote']

 

How about the fact that Teixeira and Damon appeared to hold ill will towards the Red Sox's front office after not signing. Remember, at first, both of these guys were negotiating with the Red Sox, and not with the Yankees.

 

How about the fact that Teixeira appeared to genuinely want to play for the Yankees?

 

How about the fact that Theo leaving after 2005 created a bit of an odd atmosphere for the Red Sox during the 2006 offseason?

 

Oh, and their desire is to win championships? When Damon left, the Red Sox were one year removed from a championship, while the Yankees were five years removed from winning a championship. When Teixeira went to the Yankees, the Red Sox were one year removed from a championship, while the Yankees were eight years removed from winning a championship. You can't tell me that these guys definitely thought they had a better chance to win a championship in New York.

[yankees228]

Not when your payroll is higher than the combined payrolls of two top 10 payroll teams.

 

But my contention is what this high payroll allows them to do. It's very overstated, especially in this thread.

[yankees228]

Personally' date=' I'm glad you are back. You add balance and intelligence to this forum. Meant to say something earlier. Even though you are a NYY fan and all....[/quote']

 

I appreciate that VA. Thank you for the kind words.

[ORS]

How about the fact that Teixeira and Damon appeared to hold ill will towards the Red Sox's front office after not signing. Remember, at first, both of these guys were negotiating with the Red Sox, and not with the Yankees.

 

How about the fact that Teixeira appeared to genuinely want to play for the Yankees?

 

How about the fact that Theo leaving after 2005 created a bit of an odd atmosphere for the Red Sox during the 2006 offseason?

 

Oh, and their desire is to win championships? When Damon left, the Red Sox were one year removed from a championship, while the Yankees were five years removed from winning a championship. When Teixeira went to the Yankees, the Red Sox were one year removed from a championship, while the Yankees were eight years removed from winning a championship. You can't tell me that these guys definitely thought they had a better chance to win a championship in New York.

They both came to NY for a higher payday. Apparently, this is something that doesn't get creditted toward the financial advantage. Interesting take on things.

 

EDIT: Oh, and I'd refrain from stating something is a "fact" and then following it up with "appeared". Appeared means you think those things happened. Facts are facts.

[yankees228]

They both came to NY for a higher payday. Apparently, this is something that doesn't get creditted toward the financial advantage. Interesting take on things.

 

EDIT: Oh, and I'd refrain from stating something is a "fact" and then following it up with "appeared". Appeared means you think those things happened. Facts are facts.

 

You're ignoring pieces of my argument. I never claimed that their financial advantage didn't play a role. But none of us know exactly why they came to the Yankees, and it is very possible that other factors were at play.

 

Additionally, it was poor word choice on my part. Each of my points still stand, as those things did happen.

[Dipre]

The fact that they took the most money is fact, the appearance of other factors is conjecture (When referring to FA's who chose the Yanks over the Sox).

[yankees228]

The fact that they took the most money is fact' date=' the appearance of other factors is conjecture (When referring to FA's who chose the Yanks over the Sox).[/quote']

 

This is true, in the cases of Teixeira and Damon. To the best of my knowledge, the Red Sox never made a concrete offer to Contreras.

 

Again, I've never denied the advantage, and I've never denied that money played a role here. It's indisputable. However, based on all the other apparent factors, it's likely that other things played a role as well.

[Dipre]

But apparent is not the same as fact.

 

We're running in circles. It is what it is.

[yankees228]

But apparent is not the same as fact.

 

We're running in circles. It is what it is.

 

You're right, I listed facts, but I can't prove causation. With that being said, I think there are reasonable deductions that can be made.

 

Either way, you're right. As I said a couple of pages ago, this conversation has run it's course over and over again, getting us nowhere each time.

[example1]

It seems that the Yankees are willing to pay more per value-added than any other team in baseball. The Red Sox pay a lot per win too, but not as much as the Yankees.

 

I think all teams set their value for these wins and refuse to budge beyond it. Players like CC, Teixeira and A-Rod all break the bank but they are worth it, for the Yankees, at that cost. For some reason, a player like Carlos Beltran was not worth it for the Yankees, but he's really the only player I can think of whose cost has appeared prohibitive for them. Matt Holliday might also fit into that category, as he was the best available OF in a year when the Yankees needed an OF, and they didn't touch him.

 

A comparable signing for the Red Sox is someone like JD Drew, whose contract dwarfed anything else being offered to him and has many wondering if he is worth it. I'm pretty confident that he is worth it to this team, but wouldn't be worth the same salary for, say, Houston or Oakland.

[yankees228]

It seems that the Yankees are willing to pay more per value-added than any other team in baseball. The Red Sox pay a lot per win too, but not as much as the Yankees.

 

I think all teams set their value for these wins and refuse to budge beyond it. Players like CC, Teixeira and A-Rod all break the bank but they are worth it, for the Yankees, at that cost. For some reason, a player like Carlos Beltran was not worth it for the Yankees, but he's really the only player I can think of whose cost has appeared prohibitive for them. Matt Holliday might also fit into that category, as he was the best available OF in a year when the Yankees needed an OF, and they didn't touch him.

 

A comparable signing for the Red Sox is someone like JD Drew, whose contract dwarfed anything else being offered to him and has many wondering if he is worth it. I'm pretty confident that he is worth it to this team, but wouldn't be worth the same salary for, say, Houston or Oakland.

 

E1, I think this is a very good summary of the way teams operate.

 

The only gripe I have is that I think there are definitely more guys that, for the Yankees, weren't worth the price. Off the top of my head, I can give you three major examples: Pettitte, Damon, and Matsuzaka (the bid). I'm confident that there are others, but at 1:15 AM, I'm reluctant to go back through previous free agent classes to find these guys.

[Keeper]

What about Santana? Did they not want to pay him, or did they just not want him?

[yankees228]

What about Santana? Did they not want to pay him' date=' or did they just not want him?[/quote']

 

Not a bad one, although I was thinking about free agents. I think there were a lot of reasons why the Yankees didn't pull the trigger on Santana, one of them being money.

[Divinity]

Santana wasn't a free agent, and they didn't want to have to give up Hughes or Joba

[a700hitter]

Up to this point, Drew has not been worth the investment. In 3 years with the team, he has managed to play one full season. In the other 2, he played roughly 3/4 of the season. Before you go jumping all over me for hating Drew, I like the guy a lot. He is close to a top tier player when healthy. That being said, $14 million is too much for 3/4 of a season.

[jacksonianmarch]

Santana wasn't a free agent' date=' and they didn't want to have to give up Hughes or Joba[/quote']

 

Exactly. We got CC just for money, which was well worth the investment one yr in

[BSN07]

Up to this point' date=' Drew has not been worth the investment. In 3 years with the team, he has managed to play one full season. In the other 2, he played roughly 3/4 of the season. Before you go jumping all over me for hating Drew, I like the guy a lot. He is close to a top tier player when healthy. That being said, $14 million is too much for 3/4 of a season.[/quote']

 

This statement is just flat out false. Your Drew bias is old and transparent.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1152&position=OF#value

 

Drew has Made 42M in his 3 seasons thus far. And Fan graphs have his value for the past 3 years at 46.2M. So he has actually out played his deal so far.

 

Next...

[Dipre]

I think his point on amount of playing time is a sensible one though.

[a700hitter]

This statement is just flat out false. Your Drew bias is old and transparent.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1152&position=OF#value

 

Drew has Made 42M in his 3 seasons thus far. And Fan graphs have his value for the past 3 years at 46.2M. So he has actually out played his deal so far.

 

Next...

My "Drew Bias". That's great! I love the way the guy plays the game. He does everything right. Value has nothing to do with whether I like the guy. The fact is that he has lost a lot of PT to injuries in his career and in his first two seasons with the Red Sox while making top dollar at his position. The members on this board make me laugh with the accusations that I hate players or recently that I have "undying love" for players. I have gone to hundreds of Red Sox games in my life, and I have never booed a single Sox player, not Heathcliff Slocumb or anyone else. I've booed a few managers. I think I am entitled to evaluate a player's performance or worth without these stupid accusations. Really, get a grip and learn how to discuss a matter as an adult.

[rhet]

My "Drew Bias". That's great! I love the way the guy plays the game. He does everything right. Value has nothing to do with whether I like the guy. The fact is that he has lost a lot of PT to injuries in his career and in his first two seasons with the Red Sox while making top dollar at his position. The members on this board make me laugh with the accusations that I hate players or recently that I have "undying love" for players. I have gone to hundreds of Red Sox games in my life' date=' and I have never booed a single Sox player, not Heathcliff Slocumb or anyone else. I've booed a few managers. I think I am entitled to evaluate a player's performance or worth without these stupid accusations. Really, get a grip and learn how to discuss a matter as an adult.[/quote']

 

This.