Sox Withdrew Offer to Bay in July Because of MRI

[example1]

I don't see how concerns about injury are a taboo topic, nor Manny's *******ishness.

 

If they believed that Bay's knee was only worth 2 years of investment that's their perrogative. What isn't mentioned with the report are the implications of him having bad knees. It isn't just that he wouldn't produce like he does now, or that his injury might cause him to miss games over 4 years, it's also that his defense would get considerably worse and it was bad to begin with.

 

I don't see any reason for a topic like his knees to be withheld after he's signed with someone else. I don't know if it was the FO releasing this info, but if it was (and if it is true) then the only people to whom it appears conspiratorial are those who disagree that Bay can be replaced.

 

It seems to me that the same was true of Damon, Pedro, etc., and many of the people who questioned letting go of Pedro, Damon, Cabrera, etc., snatched onto any explanation of "why" as some sort of FO plot to tarnish players that they didn't even really want for the asking price on their way out of town.

 

Why would this team do that? What interest do they have in getting a reputation as a team that kicks FA stars away in disgust? I don't think that's the reputation they have in the league.

 

I can personally make arguments about each of the players you laid out above and why it was in the Sox best interest to let them go. Whether or not the reasons were infered on my own or through propaganda doesn't really matter; if they're right, they're right. If they're telling the truth about things then I don't much care who is presenting it.

 

Was Manny a douchebag who had to go? Yes. He wanted to leave for years, his contract was going to be up soon so he could be moved, and he quit on the team according to the players, near the end, and he got in a confrontation with a Sox staff member. He had to go and the stories are going to follow him.

[Imperial59]

I don't see how concerns about injury are a taboo topic, nor Manny's *******ishness.

 

If they believed that Bay's knee was only worth 2 years of investment that's their perrogative. What isn't mentioned with the report are the implications of him having bad knees. It isn't just that he wouldn't produce like he does now, or that his injury might cause him to miss games over 4 years, it's also that his defense would get considerably worse and it was bad to begin with.

 

I don't see any reason for a topic like his knees to be withheld after he's signed with someone else. I don't know if it was the FO releasing this info, but if it was (and if it is true) then the only people to whom it appears conspiratorial are those who disagree that Bay can be replaced.

 

It seems to me that the same was true of Damon, Pedro, etc., and many of the people who questioned letting go of Pedro, Damon, Cabrera, etc., snatched onto any explanation of "why" as some sort of FO plot to tarnish players that they didn't even really want for the asking price on their way out of town.

 

Why would this team do that? What interest do they have in getting a reputation as a team that kicks FA stars away in disgust? I don't think that's the reputation they have in the league.

 

I can personally make arguments about each of the players you laid out above and why it was in the Sox best interest to let them go. Whether or not the reasons were infered on my own or through propaganda doesn't really matter; if they're right, they're right. If they're telling the truth about things then I don't much care who is presenting it.

 

Was Manny a douchebag who had to go? Yes. He wanted to leave for years, his contract was going to be up soon so he could be moved, and he quit on the team according to the players, near the end, and he got in a confrontation with a Sox staff member. He had to go and the stories are going to follow him.

 

To me, it's hilarious when people accuse the Sox of badmouthing Manny, Pedro, Lowe or Damon to get them out of town. NONE OF THOSE PLAYERS WERE WORTH WHAT THEY WERE SIGNED FOR. Perhaps the Sox just made accurate financial assessments on those players.

[jacksonianmarch]

wow, lots of denail here. Example, every time they lose a FA that they wouldnt mind retaining, there is some backlash in the media. Happens every single time. Boston just isnt content with saying that they lost him, they have to tarnish the guy on the way out the door to make it look like they werent outmanuevered or werent undervaluing the player. We'll see how far that gets them this yr when Bay hits his standard 30+ homers and drives in 100+RBI in Flushing while the sox middle of the order is run through like a buzzsaw through tinder.

[a700hitter]

The FO doesn't bad mouth players to run them out of town. They were going to part ways with those guys any way. Also, no one is arguing that those were not sound business decisions. However, they and every other team uses the press as a tool. Whenever they move a popular player during the season, the negative stories start to appear before the deal. When the moves are made after the season, the stories often wait until the guy is gone. It's a way of getting the fans behind the moves. If there are no physical issues to discuss, there are articles about the guy being a scumbag. Before 2008, we knew that Manny was a flake etc., but do we really believe that he just became a scumbag in 2008. What about all the "Nomar was a Scumbag" stories. Is it a coincidence that these were 2 of the most popular Red Sox players in team history? I don't think so. They used the press to get the fans behind the moves. Is it a conspiracy? That's a silly way of characterizing it. It's called public relations. They are using the Press to sell the FO move. Are the stories planted? They are probably not for the most part. I think the press knows a lot about this stuff, but they refrain from printing it while the player is on the team, because they don't want to get on the wrong side of the press or the FO. After the player is gone, they print the stuff, because they don't need the player anymore, and they know the FO will not be opposed. Some of the stuff is planted. The Manny and the Traveling Secretary story was planted IMO. I also think that a lot of medical info (like Bay's Knees) is planted. This is not about running a player out of town or a conspiracy. It's about Public Relations for the team.

[a700hitter]

I disagree with Jackson about 90% of the time, but he is right in substance here. He's putting it in a way to get under the skin of Sox fans, but it happens every time a popular player walks. It doesn't matter that the information was valid. I would assume that it is always valid. I wouldn't expect them to feed lies to the press, although some teams like the Mets are shameless liars. If his MRI in July made the Sox pull back, ask yourself why is this information being widely disseminated now and not in July? IMO they wanted to re-sign him, but it didn't work out, so they need to explain why they let last years biggest run producer walk. The story is out there so if Bay does well this year they can say that he will not hold up for 4 or 5 years. If you don't believe Jackson, wait till the next popular superstar walks. The stories will come. We could start to see "Papelbon is a money-grubbing scumbag" stories in a year or so.

[TheMino007]

The Sox have constantly ran smear campaigns when a popular player isn't re-signed and the Sox FO think up any excuse they can why not to bring them back, I've seen it happen with Mo Vaughn, Roger Clemens, Johnny Damon, Pedro Martinez, Orlando Cabrera, and now Jason Bay. This knee MRI thing is all just part of their propaganda to make it all right why they didn't spend the $ to bring Bay back and went with Cameron instead.

[a700hitter]

The Sox have constantly ran smear campaigns when a popular player isn't re-signed and the Sox FO think up any excuse they can why not to bring them back' date=' I've seen it happen with Mo Vaughn, Roger Clemens, Johnny Damon, Pedro Martinez, Orlando Cabrera, and now Jason Bay. This knee MRI thing is all just part of their propaganda to make it all right why they didn't spend the $ to bring Bay back and went with Cameron instead.[/quote']The information they put out is usually accurate, and their personnel decisions have been sound on the whole, but they do spin their moves in the press. This is no different than any other major business organization. The Yankees don't do it as frequently because they tend to keep their big stars and fan favorites, and if they let them walk they give the fans a more expensive shiny new toy to replace him.

[RedSox2737]

did not know this about Bay...I did hear that he had surgery two yrs ago in the off season ( still w/Pirates ) for knee or shoulder....can't remember

[a700hitter]

did not know this about Bay...I did hear that he had surgery two yrs ago in the off season ( still w/Pirates ) for knee or shoulder....can't remember

It's a big issue now, despite the fact that he was the second fastest guy on last year's team and didn't miss any time due to knee issues. He's a ticking time bomb. The FO wants us to know that by time he is 60 he'll need a double knee replacement. Better to cut ties with him now.

[example1]

It's a big issue now' date=' despite the fact that he was [b']the second fastest guy on last year's team [/b]and didn't miss any time due to knee issues. He's a ticking time bomb. The FO wants us to know that by time he is 60 he'll need a double knee replacement. Better to cut ties with him now.

 

Huh? Really, second fastest?

[a700hitter]

Huh? Really' date=' second fastest?[/quote']Who was faster other than Ellsbury? Bay got down the line on groundballs very well. IMO he got down the line better than Pedroia, and I think he is as fast as Drew.

[Dojji]

Drew, Pedroia and IMHO Youkilis (whose speed is pretty underrated), are all faster than Bay, although Bay uses it on the basepaths more than Youks does.

 

For the record, I think a lot of people are putting the cart before the horse.

 

Of COURSE when a longtime player for a team first moves on, the stories that were held back from the media out of respect for the guy are going to start coming out. It's only natural for any medium that holds onto some of those stories to bring out the more relevant ones now that they have no reason to keep them quiet.

 

Personally I think a lot of people who yammer about smear campaigns are looking at that particular phenomenon and mistaking effect for cause.

[a700hitter]

Drew, Pedroia and IMHO Youkilis (whose speed is pretty underrated), are all faster than Bay, although Bay uses it on the basepaths more than Youks does.

 

For the record, I think a lot of people are putting the cart before the horse.

 

Of COURSE when a longtime player for a team first moves on, the stories that were held back from the media out of respect for the guy are going to start coming out. It's only natural for any medium that holds onto some of those stories to bring out the more relevant ones now that they have no reason to keep them quiet.

 

Personally I think a lot of people who yammer about smear campaigns are looking at that particular phenomenon and mistaking effect for cause.

There's no way any of those guys got down the line faster than Bay.

[redsoxrules]

There's no way any of those guys got down the line faster than Bay.

 

yes there is

[a700hitter]

yes there is

Do you have there times to first base, and don't forget Drew is coming out of the lefthanded box.

[Spudboy]

Wow.

 

The off-season is is largely devoid of anything worthwhile to discuss!

 

Bay vs. Youk down the line?

 

Oye.

 

BTW - Reddick smokes them both.

[example1]

I agree with Pedroia, Drew and Youkilis.

 

I would add Baldelli, Lugo (when here), Lowrie, and Nick Green.

 

Bay's speed wasn't a plus tool.

[Spudboy]

Bay was a good base-runner. Just not exactly a speedy gonzalez.

[a700hitter]

I agree with Pedroia, Drew and Youkilis.

 

I would add Baldelli, Lugo (when here), Lowrie, and Nick Green.

 

Bay's speed wasn't a plus tool.

Lugo wasn't really a useful part of the team and he wasn't on the team at the end of the year, so I excluded him. Baldelli would give him a run when he wasn't cramped and fatigued. There were times that he absolutely lumbered down the line. Unless you can show me times of Youkilis and Pedroia that are faster than Bay, my money is still on Bay. Pedroia's speed is strictly average, but he is usually a very effective base runner. Drew comes out of the left hand side, but I think Bay runs him to a dead heat first to third. Lowrie doesn't have good speed. Anyway, if any of those guys are faster it would be by the barest of margins. Bay was one of the fastest and best base runners on the team even with his terrible knee condition.

[SoxSport]

Moving in the pitching/defense direction was an unexpected move that caught everybody offguard. Lackey was a huge surprise, followed quickly by Cameron. We'll see how it pans out.

 

The Red Sox have saved countless millions over the years by letting big tickets go who looked risky. They almost always have been proven right. The Mets were victimized in one of these with Pedro. They paid him 4 years for a good 2 years. Roughly $28 mil per good year. That may be chumpchange in NY, but not in Boston. They apparently saw a red flag on Bay. Time will tell if they were right. The Mets are willing to take the chance because they feel the heat in NY.

[yankees228]

Moving in the pitching/defense direction was an unexpected move that caught everybody offguard. Lackey was a huge surprise, followed quickly by Cameron. We'll see how it pans out.

 

The Red Sox have saved countless millions over the years by letting big tickets go who looked risky. They almost always have been proven right. The Mets were victimized in one of these with Pedro. They paid him 4 years for a good 2 years. Roughly $28 mil per good year. That may be chumpchange in NY, but not in Boston. They apparently saw a red flag on Bay. Time will tell if they were right. The Mets are willing to take the chance because they feel the heat in NY.

 

While letting Pedro go turned out to be the correct move for the Red Sox, I don't think it's necessarily fair to say that it was a bad move for the Mets. Granted, he only lived up to expectations for half the contract (and didn't pitch in the 2006 playoffs), but he really helped legitimize the Mets' franchise. He was the first big ticket free agent that Minaya brought in, and it was probably a spring board for many more (especially Beltran). While Pedro's performance is the most relevant way to judge the worth of his contract, the other factors should not be forgotten.

 

On top of that, I don't understand why you're making it seem like the Mets spend so much more money than the Red Sox, when you know that to be inaccurate.

[Imperial59]

wow' date=' lots of denail here. Example, every time they lose a FA that they wouldnt mind retaining, there is some backlash in the media. Happens every single time. Boston just isnt content with saying that they lost him, they have to tarnish the guy on the way out the door to make it look like they werent outmanuevered or werent undervaluing the player. We'll see how far that gets them this yr when Bay hits his standard 30+ homers and drives in 100+RBI in Flushing while the sox middle of the order is run through like a buzzsaw through tinder.[/quote']

 

Typically when someone claims there's a conspiracy, the onus is on them to prove any proof rather than just claiming they're right because they said so and telling everyone else they're in denial.

 

And I think you need to work on your metaphors. You just likened the Red Sox middle of the order to a buzzsaw.

[Imperial59]

Who was faster other than Ellsbury? Bay got down the line on groundballs very well. IMO he got down the line better than Pedroia' date=' and I think he is as fast as Drew.[/quote']

 

Bay's been a pretty slow runner ever since he hurt his knees a few years ago. He was an opportunistic basestealer, but he certainly wasn't fast.

[Imperial59]

Now, WEEI advances the story some more by speaking to Bay. The outfielder said the Sox pulled their offer because of concerns with his knees. Then the team came back with different proposals that all included medical contingencies. Finally Bay decided to move on, insisting all the while that he felt fine.

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2010/01/the_plot_thicke.html

 

So much for the Red Sox making the story up as part of some kind of smear campaign.

[a700hitter]

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2010/01/the_plot_thicke.html

 

So much for the Red Sox making the story up as part of some kind of smear campaign.

You've cracked the case.:dunno: What does this prove?

[Imperial59]

You've cracked the case.:dunno: What does this prove?

 

It proves the Sox didn't make anything up or smear Bay for one. Bay agreed with everything Gammons said and added that he wasn't willing to take a deal with an opt out clause should Bay's knees limit his playing time (similar to the one Drew has with his shoulder).

 

Any MRI showed damage to both of his knees. He wasn't willing to take a deal that would allow the Sox an out if his knees kept him from playing. That's on him. The Sox would have to be idiots to commit $60+ million to a guy with two damaged knees who can barely field his position as it is.

[a700hitter]

No one said they made up the story about his MRI. In fact, I acknowledged that the stories written about players after they leave are probably true, because I didn't think the FO would circulate lies. And no one said that the Sox did not make the right business decision in letting players walk. What I did say is that the FO uses the press as a public relations tool to sell their moves to the fans. The MRI was in July, and the results concerned the FO enough for them to back away from the deal, yet we didn't hear about this until January 2010 after Bay signed with the Mets. Do you think there is a reason for the timing of the release of this information? I do, and it has to do with public relations. If Bay had signed with the Sox, this information never would have been made public. I don't know why the notion of teams using the press as a public relations tool should surprise anyone. If the press didn't help promote the game, major league baseball wouldn't have them around. Every major business feeds the press information that it wants it to have. I hope you don't think that sports writers are independent investigative journalists. They depend on the teams for information for their stories. It's a cozy relationship. It is because of this cozy (you scratch my back I'll scratch yours) relationship that the media looked completely the other way during the steroid era. Only a federal investigation and Congressional hearings fully brought it to light. The writers knew. It was right in front of their faces, but they never wrote or spoke about it. If they did, they got ostracized like the guy in Chicago who asked Sosa to test his urine.

 

You scoff at this by calling it a made up conspiracy or a smear campaign. The fact is that the media and MLB are partners in a way, because they both have a financial interest in the game being popular. If you don't question the January release of the July MRI info, then you are just looking the other way too. They might as well have called it an official Red Sox press release. Is this an evil or bad practice? No, it is a smart practice by a smart organization. They are spinning the story to put themselves in a favorable light with their customers. I recognize it for what it is, and it is not an attack on the FO. I, unlike others, expect them to act like businessmen, and good businessmen control the release of information about their business unless their is a law requiring that it be disclosed.

[Plumpamania]

The Sox have constantly ran smear campaigns when a popular player isn't re-signed and the Sox FO think up any excuse they can why not to bring them back' date=' I've seen it happen with Mo Vaughn, Roger Clemens, Johnny Damon, Pedro Martinez, Orlando Cabrera, and now Jason Bay. This knee MRI thing is all just part of their propaganda to make it all right why they didn't spend the $ to bring Bay back and went with Cameron instead.[/quote']

 

Pedro Martinez - Arm dead, lasted 1.5 years.

Mo Vaughn - Fat and never recovered.

Nomar Garciaparra - My favorite, but how effective was he since 2001?

Roger Clemens - Barring steroids was on his way out.

Johnny Damon - Throws like a girl, but his bat stayed potent.

Orlando Cabrera - He was never as popular as the others.

Jason Bay - Bad knees, TBD.

 

Next.

[Dojji]

Damon's defensive decline would have been a much bigger problem if he'd played here. We had left field occupied, first with Manny, then with Bay, and we couldn't rely on DH. So where do you play him? Keep trotting him out in CF despite his ineptitude there?

[Plumpamania]

Who knows maybe Bay could have been his relay man XD.