Red Sox Spring Training thread

[Spudboy]

I'd like to know what the definition of an "Elite Shortsop" is.

 

Who are the examples currently playing? And what makes them "Elite"?

[Dipre]

I'd like to know what the definition of an "Elite Shortsop" is.

 

Who are the examples currently playing? And what makes them "Elite"?

 

 

An "Elite" Shortstop (or any player for that matter) is a player who's head and shoulder above his current competition. It's a guy whose production is top two or three in the game. Usually the"elite" connotation is defined by your bat, even though defense has to be taken into account, it's always your offense that defines your place among the ranks of the position you play in.

 

Right now, the two SS you could consider as "Elite" performers are Derek Jeter and Hanley Ramirez, who, even though are lackluster (except for Jeter's 2009 with the glove) defensively, their offense is so far above the rest of the playing field, that you can consider them "Elite". You could say the same for Joe Mauer at Catcher or Chase Utley at 2B, ditto for Alex Rodriguez at 3B and Albert Pujols at 1B.

[SCM33]

An "Elite" Shortstop (or any player for that matter) is a player who's head and shoulder above his current competition. It's a guy whose production is top two or three in the game. Usually the"elite" connotation is defined by your bat, even though defense has to be taken into account, it's always your offense that defines your place among the ranks of the position you play in.

 

Right now, the two SS you could consider as "Elite" performers are Derek Jeter and Hanley Ramirez, who, even though are lackluster (except for Jeter's 2009 with the glove) defensively, their offense is so far above the rest of the playing field, that you can consider them "Elite". You could say the same for Joe Mauer at Catcher or Chase Utley at 2B, ditto for Alex Rodriguez at 3B and Albert Pujols at 1B.

 

Im not even sure Jeter is at that level anymore, although last season says otherwise. Jeter is one of the best position players in the game, but this is probably personal preference when I say that I think of an elite player, I think of a player at the top of his game in the prime of his career. Jeter is still one of the best SS in the game, but he is at the end of his game.

 

Current SS in their primes, I agree with Hanley, and also throw out Tulowitzki.

 

The position has kind of gone the wayside. The last SS period I think that had "elite" SS was the era of Arod, Jeter, Tejada, and Nomar of the late 90's early 2000's. Also known as the steroid Era haha.

[Keeper]

In terms of the whole package, I think Tulo is the best SS in the game right now. The defensive metrics really don't do him justice.

 

I also think Jose Reyes and Jimmy Rollins are elite, although Rollins' best years are behind him.

[Imperial59]

Lowrie is looking more and more like a backup. He never had elite potential. He's had avg potential from the start. His injuries have limited that. He won't ever be a starter for the sox outside of injury replacement

 

Typical Jacko assessment of a Red Sox player. He was hurt and now he won't ever be the same or amount to anything. He hit .282/.378/.442 in the minors and he's hit .313/.391/.495 in the majors from the right side of the plate where his wrist didn't bother him. If he could post an .800 OPS in the majors, with his defense he could be a top 5 shortstop.

 

I don't think he'll ever be elite. But if a shortstop can play good defense and hit for an .800 OPS, they're one of the better shortstops in baseball.

[Imperial59]

Im not even sure Jeter is at that level anymore, although last season says otherwise. Jeter is one of the best position players in the game, but this is probably personal preference when I say that I think of an elite player, I think of a player at the top of his game in the prime of his career. Jeter is still one of the best SS in the game, but he is at the end of his game.

 

Current SS in their primes, I agree with Hanley, and also throw out Tulowitzki.

 

The position has kind of gone the wayside. The last SS period I think that had "elite" SS was the era of Arod, Jeter, Tejada, and Nomar of the late 90's early 2000's. Also known as the steroid Era haha.

 

Yeah, it's pretty debatable whether Jeter's an elite shortstop or not. He's only been in the top of in WAR among shortstops one of the last three years. Usually his defense brings his value down. I have a hard time believing that he's going to play the best defense of his career at age 35+, he'll probably revert tot he below average UZR numbers that he's had every year that they've tracked the stat, with the exception of last year.

[Imperial59]

I'd like to know what the definition of an "Elite Shortsop" is.

 

Who are the examples currently playing? And what makes them "Elite"?

 

I don't know if you were asking someone specifically, or asking just generally. To me, an elite player is a top 3 player at their position. I'd say examples would include Hanley, Tulu and Rollins. Beyond that, you're dealing with shortstops who have only been in the top 5 in WAR once in the last 3 years.

[jacksonianmarch]

I used to get excited about Spring Training stats and performances, then Enrique Wilson came along. For hitters, its essentially meaningless. Spring Training is there for the pitchers to shake off the rust and stretch out their arms. The only part of ST that has worth is watching the pitchers in the final week and seeing how their stuff has changed/improved

[a700hitter]

If I have to pick a SS for 1 year for my team, this year Jeter heads my list- ahead of Hanley. I don't care what the numbers say. That's elite. I hate anything with pinstripes, but the devil must get his due.

[Imperial59]

If I have to pick a SS for 1 year for my team' date=' this year Jeter heads my list- ahead of Hanley. I don't care what the numbers say. That's elite. I hate anything with pinstripes, but the devil must get his due.[/quote']

 

Well Jeter's got the better intangibles, I don't think anyone would be silly enough to argue that. Hanley's just as good or better at pretty much everything else though.

[Imperial59]

I used to get excited about Spring Training stats and performances' date=' then Enrique Wilson came along. For hitters, its essentially meaningless. Spring Training is there for the pitchers to shake off the rust and stretch out their arms. The only part of ST that has worth is watching the pitchers in the final week and seeing how their stuff has changed/improved[/quote']

 

It's not completely meaningless. It's pretty important for players coming off injuries last year (Ortiz, Beltre, Lowell, Lowrie, etc.).

[italstallianion]

Well Jeter's got the better intangibles' date=' I don't think anyone would be silly enough to argue that. Hanley's just as good or better at pretty much everything else though.[/quote']

 

 

Could you imagine Hanley's numbers in Coors East?

[jacksonianmarch]

Hanley is more gifted. Jeter is more polished and seems to always bring his A game. Hanley gets knocked for being aloof and selfish. Jeter is far from that. Between the two, it depends on what I need. If I need a leader and a guy to set the table offensively, I'll take Jeter. If I need a middle of the order bat to anchor the offense, you go HanRam all day long

[Dipre]

Top three SS:

 

1) Hanley

2) Jeter

3) Tulo.

 

Rollins isn't even close.

[Keeper]

Rollins is still elite, though. Easily one of the best defensive shortstops in the game, he has pop, and he can steal bases. His plate discipline is his only weakness. Almost a five-tool player.

[Dipre]

He's had OPS's below the .800's the last two seasons. He was elite, but he's no longer top 3.

[Dojji]

Could you imagine Hanley's numbers in Coors East?

 

Can you imagine Hanley's numbers peppering the wall at Fenway? He's built better to double off the wall than he is to homer the other way at NYS.

[italstallianion]

Can you imagine Hanley's numbers peppering the wall at Fenway? He's built better to double off the wall than he is to homer the other way at NYS.

 

 

 

True, but my point was to contrast SunLife Stadium with the Launching Pad Formally Known as Yankee Stadium with respect to Hanley and Jeter's numbers.

[Dojji]

Alright, agreed on that point, although Florida's actually a better HR park for RHH's than NYS, which has a fairly deep left field. Also the same jetstream that practically allows you to homer on a popup to right bends the ball to center if you drive it to left.

[Spudboy]

Sox beat the twins 2-1 tonight.

 

Nothing big happened.

[Dojji]

Dunno, kinda liked Reddick's double. IIRC it was against a LHP too.

 

ya ya, I know, taken by itself it means nothing, but still it was a nice sign.

[Keeper]

He's had OPS's below the .800's the last two seasons. He was elite' date=' but he's no longer top 3.[/quote']

 

Definitely no longer top 3, but a case could be made for top 5. Reyes is ahead of him, and J.J. Hardy needs to bounce back. Yunel Escobar is also knocking on the door of elite SS status, IMO.

[Dojji]

Yunel Escobar is a very good bat with average defense by UZR/150. To be "elite" IMHO either the bat or the glove needs to improve one more tick.

 

Yunel certainly has elite potential, if he can improve that last little but, but I'd say he's not there yet.

 

On a largely unrelated note, I've fished for a comment on this before and didn't get a bite, so I'll outright ask: does anyone see Lowrie actually abandoning hitting from the left side if that wrist continues to be an issue, and just hits from the right side, and would that actually accomplish anything meaningful?

[Imperial59]

Hanley is more gifted. Jeter is more polished and seems to always bring his A game. Hanley gets knocked for being aloof and selfish. Jeter is far from that. Between the two' date=' it depends on what I need. If I need a leader and a guy to set the table offensively, I'll take Jeter. If I need a middle of the order bat to anchor the offense, you go HanRam all day long[/quote']

 

Hanley would be every bit as good, if not better at setting the table offensively. He's had an OPS of .400 or better each of the last two years. Like I said, the only thing Jeter's got going for him is his "intangibles". Hanley is clearly the better player.

[Dojji]

Not to mention, Hanley has a much much better arm at short, and he can make plays in the hole Jeter just has to eat.

[Spudboy]

Apparently I haven't seen enough of Hanley. Every time I've seen him play short he has looked really average.

 

He looked like a bulky Lugo.

 

No doubt that he is an "Elite' bat.

[Dojji]

Hanley's probably going to move to third in a couple years, his bat plays there and his glove would be better there too.

[Dipre]

Interesting quote from Mr. Jason Bay when asked about the Red Sox offense:

 

"I think it's ludicrous that everybody keeps talking about their offense," said Bay. "I don't really understand it. You lose one guy and you add [Marco] Scutaro, [Adrian] Beltre and [Mike] Cameron -- I guess its offseason fodder. You're doing your calculations and all of that, but I mean, it's actually kind of baffling, almost funny to me that those guys over there have to keep answering offensive questions, because I think they're going to be fine.

 

"You look at the guys they have. Are you going to score 15 runs a game? Who is? But how much offense are you looking for. I think it's laughable that's even an issue, because I think they will be more than fine."

 

 

Love the use of the word "laughable".

[BoSox21]

I was just about to post that quote, Dipre. I thought it was a very interesting person to ask the question to.

[Dipre]

I was just about to post that quote' date=' Dipre. I thought it was a very interesting person to ask the question to.[/quote']

 

Well here's my issue with the whole "They ain't gonna hit!!!111!!" argument.

 

They hit last year. Top-5 offense right?

 

They lost Jason Bay's 36 HR's and 119 RBI's, but you also substract Nick Green and Jason Varitek from the everyday lineup.

 

So you add Mike Cameron, Adrian Beltre and V-Mart for a full season. Even if Beltre were to absolutely suck (doubtful since both his balls are in place), in the grand scheme of things, (if using common sense instead of bias or sheer stupidity) this is actually a tougher lineup which logically can't score less than 30-35 runs than last year's team unless a 2006-type disaster happens.