Jason Bay going to the Mets

[Dipre]

exactly

 

Scutaro career OPS: .721.

 

Nick Green career OPS: .660

 

Anything and everything is a huge upgrade over Green.

[jacksonianmarch]

It is an upgrade, but it isnt a significant one. Scutaro has posted 3 .700+OPS seasons and only one .750+OPS season. Plus, he's a downgrade defensively from AGon and he cost you guys a second rounder. His mild upgrade doesnt come close to replacing the OPS of Bay.

[Dipre]

It is an upgrade' date=' but it isnt a significant one. Scutaro has posted 3 .700+OPS seasons and only one .750+OPS season. Plus, he's a downgrade defensively from AGon and he cost you guys a second rounder. His mild upgrade doesnt come close to replacing the OPS of Bay.[/quote']

 

Who the f*** is expecting him to replace Bay's OPS?

 

While he's a downgrade defensively, he's a massive offensive upgrade from the suck we trotted out there last year.

[jacksonianmarch]

He's a marginal upgrade over the suck that was out there last yr. Plus, if you are trying to sell the sox switch of Bay for Cameron based on defense in LF at Fenway, how can you possibly consider a defensive downgrade at SS an upgrade?

[Dipre]

He's a marginal upgrade over the suck that was out there last yr. Plus' date=' if you are trying to sell the sox switch of Bay for Cameron based on defense in LF at Fenway, how can you possibly consider a defensive downgrade at SS an upgrade?[/quote']

 

Alex Gonzales is a good defensive SS, but he provides nothing with the stick. Scutaro is a slightly above-average SS who has a nearly 80-point OPS career advantage over both Green and Gonzales.

 

Jacko please.

[TheMino007]

I'll miss Bay, but he has been gone for about a month now, or whenever the Cameron signing was. Offense takes a hit but with the improved defense and pitching (run prevention) we won't miss him as much.

[Imperial59]

It is an upgrade' date=' but it isnt a significant one. Scutaro has posted 3 .700+OPS seasons and only one .750+OPS season. Plus, he's a downgrade defensively from AGon and he cost you guys a second rounder. His mild upgrade doesnt come close to replacing the OPS of Bay.[/quote']

 

I'd say replacing a 0.4 WAR guy with a guy who's averaged a 3.65 WAR the last 2 years is a pretty big upgrade. He's not exactly Lackey replacing Penny, but the difference in WAR is even greater because a shortstop plays every day, not every 5.

 

I don't expect him to have quite as good a year as he did last year with the bat. But here are the top 10 shortstops in WAR over the last 2 years.

 

Hanley - 14.7

Jeter - 11.1

Rollins - 7.7

Escobar - 7.3

Scutaro -7.3

Bartlett - 6.6

Hardy - 6.6

Tulo - 6.3

Theriot - 5.9

Tejada - 5.8

 

As you can see, he's tied for 4th. How is going from one of the worst shotstops in baseball to a top 5 shortstop not a huge upgrade?

[Imperial59]

Scutaro career OPS: .721.

 

Nick Green career OPS: .660

 

Anything and everything is a huge upgrade over Green.

 

Not to mention we also had 26 games last year of Lowrie who only hit .147/.211/.265 (.475 OPS) and we had 32 games of Julio Lugo who had a -44.7 UZR/10. Those two plays more games combined than Gonzalez.

[Imperial59]

He's a marginal upgrade over the suck that was out there last yr. Plus' date=' if you are trying to sell the sox switch of Bay for Cameron based on defense in LF at Fenway, how can you possibly consider a defensive downgrade at SS an upgrade?[/quote']

 

Really, he's a marginal upgrade over Green (.236/.366/.669), Lowrie (.147/.211/.265), Lugo (.268/.35/.330 with a -44.7 UZR/150) and Alex Gonzalez? Gonzo played in 44 games, those other 3 shortstops played in 139. You clearly didn't pay much attention to the Red Sox last year if you don't think Scutaro is a big upgrade over what they had last year.

[Dipre]

Really' date=' he's a marginal upgrade over Green (.236/.366/.669), Lowrie (.147/.211/.265), Lugo (.268/.35/.330 with a -44.7 UZR/150) and Alex Gonzalez? Gonzo played in 44 games, those other 3 shortstops played in 139. You clearly didn't pay much attention to the Red Sox last year if you don't think Scutaro is a big upgrade over what they had last year.[/quote']

 

Lies!

 

It's a lateral move.

 

Going from a combined sub-660 OPS to a .700+ OPS is obviously not a significant upgrade.

[example1]

He's a marginal upgrade over the suck that was out there last yr. Plus' date=' if you are trying to sell the sox switch of Bay for Cameron based on defense in LF at Fenway, how can you possibly consider a defensive downgrade at SS an upgrade?[/b']

 

You're not really asking this, are you? Cameron and Bay were comparable win-production-wise last year and most years before. Cameron's value came largely through his glove, Bay's largely through his bat. Scutaro is so much better with the bat that it outweighs their difference with the glove. This seems obvious.

 

Fangraphs has Scutaro as the 5th most valuable SS last year, with 4.5 WAR, 9th in fielding, 6th offensively. He was the 12th most valuable SS in 2008. The Red Sox did not have a capable SS in 2009. He'll be a significant upgrade if he stays healthy and he'll provide some nice competition for Lowrie if Jed wants to take the position back.

[Dipre]

You're not really asking this, are you? Cameron and Bay were comparable win-production-wise last year and most years before. Cameron's value came largely through his glove, Bay's largely through his bat. Scutaro is so much better with the bat that it outweighs their difference with the glove. This seems obvious.

 

Fangraphs has Scutaro as the 5th most valuable SS last year, with 4.5 WAR, 9th in fielding, 6th offensively. He was the 12th most valuable SS in 2008. The Red Sox did not have a capable SS in 2009. He'll be a significant upgrade if he stays healthy and he'll provide some nice competition for Lowrie if Jed wants to take the position back.

 

It's like arguing with a shrew, isn't it e1?

[Red Foreman]

Really' date=' he's a marginal upgrade over Green (.236/.366/.669), Lowrie (.147/.211/.265), Lugo (.268/.35/.330 with a -44.7 UZR/150) and Alex Gonzalez? Gonzo played in 44 games, those other 3 shortstops played in 139. You clearly didn't pay much attention to the Red Sox last year if you don't think Scutaro is a big upgrade over what they had last year.[/quote']

 

 

I'll still aproach it with cautious optimism. He'll certainly be an upgrade he should certainly solidify the position but he's a career utility/borderline journeyman who had a career year at age 33 in the obscurity of Toronto. Maybe he'll put up even better numbers in '10 but his history doesn't suggest it. I wouldn't say he's a marginal upgrade but he still just Marco Scutaro and I think the words 'huge upgrade' should used with caution when describing him. I hope I'm wrong.

[Imperial59]

Lies!

 

It's a lateral move.

 

Going from a combined sub-660 OPS to a .700+ OPS is obviously not a significant upgrade.

 

You're right, Nick Green is as good a shortstop as Marco Scutaro, the Red Sox don't have a 4th starter, Chamberlain's 1.56 WHIP, 9.81 H/9, 4.25 BB/9 in the first half last year were great, AJ Burnett and a 38 Andy Pettitte are a lock for 30+ starts and 200+ innings, and Vazquez is a sure thing to have an ERA under 4.50 in the AL even though he's only done it once in four years.

 

/end Jacko impersonation

 

He really is quite comical. Only problem is that it's for all the wrong reasons.

[riverside sluggers]

It is an upgrade' date=' but it isnt a significant one. Scutaro has posted 3 .700+OPS seasons and only one .750+OPS season. Plus, he's a downgrade defensively from AGon and he cost you guys a second rounder. His mild upgrade doesnt come close to replacing the OPS of Bay.[/quote']

 

But.... the Sox gained draft picks from Billy Wagner and Jason Bay signing elsewhere. I could care less about the draft pick they lost from signing Scutaro

[riverside sluggers]

Really' date=' he's a marginal upgrade over Green (.236/.366/.669), Lowrie (.147/.211/.265), Lugo (.268/.35/.330 with a -44.7 UZR/150) and Alex Gonzalez? Gonzo played in 44 games, those other 3 shortstops played in 139. You clearly didn't pay much attention to the Red Sox last year if you don't think Scutaro is a big upgrade over what they had last year.[/quote']

 

Dont forget, Chris Woodward also had some starts

[Dipre]

You're right, Nick Green is as good a shortstop as Marco Scutaro, the Red Sox don't have a 4th starter, Chamberlain's 1.56 WHIP, 9.81 H/9, 4.25 BB/9 in the first half last year were great, AJ Burnett and a 38 Andy Pettitte are a lock for 30+ starts and 200+ innings, and Vazquez is a sure thing to have an ERA under 4.50 in the AL even though he's only done it once in four years.

 

/end Jacko impersonation

 

He really is quite comical. Only problem is that it's for all the wrong reasons.

 

I like you.

 

A lot.

 

Stick around, start posting more.

[Dipre]

I'll still aproach it with cautious optimism. He'll certainly be an upgrade he should certainly solidify the position but he's a career utility/borderline journeyman who had a career year at age 33 in the obscurity of Toronto. Maybe he'll put up even better numbers in '10 but his history doesn't suggest it. I wouldn't say he's a marginal upgrade but he still just Marco Scutaro and I think the words 'huge upgrade' should used with caution when describing him. I hope I'm wrong.

 

I don't like Scutaro much either, specially his defense. But the fact is, if you look at Green/Lugo/Lowrie, there is no word to describe the upgrade other than "massive". You couldn't get a replacement level ballplayer out of the three of them.

[Imperial59]

But.... the Sox gained draft picks from Billy Wagner and Jason Bay signing elsewhere. I could care less about the draft pick they lost from signing Scutaro

 

We really didn't lose anything. When we signed Scutaro, we lost the #29 pick in the first round and when the Braves signed Wagner we got an even better pick at #20. Numbers 1-15 are all protected, so getting a #20 pick because of free agency is the 5th best pick we could have gotten. In addition, we picked up two first round draft picks (Wagner and Bay) and a second round pick (Bay).

 

I think we'll somehow survive with only 4 extra draft picks next year lol

[Red Foreman]

I don't like Scutaro much either' date=' specially his defense. But the fact is, if you look at Green/Lugo/Lowrie, there is no word to describe the upgrade other than "massive". You couldn't get a replacement level ballplayer out of the three of them.[/quote']

 

I agree 100% that SS was a hole last year and not much better than having a pitcher in the line-up most of the time, and I don't think I can emphasize enough how important I think solidifying the position is but he'll still just be a bottom of the order guy who couldn't manage a .700 OPS in his previous two years.

[riverside sluggers]

The Red Sox have also improved offense in backup catcher (Kottaras to Varitek) and backup outfielder (Rocco to Hermida).

 

V-Mart is really being under rated here, except for several posters who have brought him up. This is a legit middle of the order hitter that can give you .300 avg, 20-25 HRs, 100+ RBIs. And if Youk wasnt hurt in April, he couldve had a 30 HR/100 RBI season

[Imperial59]

I don't like Scutaro much either' date=' specially his defense. But the fact is, if you look at Green/Lugo/Lowrie, there is no word to describe the upgrade other than "massive". You couldn't get a replacement level ballplayer out of the three of them.[/quote']

 

When the Sox initially signed Scutaro, I thought "crap, we lose a draft pick for an average shortstop". But the more I've researched it, the more underrated I think the move was.

 

We replaced the draft pick we lost with a first round draft pick 9 spots better when Wagner signed with Atlanta.

 

The last few years Scutaro has emerged as a solid defensive SS. He's had two slightly above average seasons and one stellar season defensively.

 

If he can put up some kind of offensive numbers that are halfway between his last year's numbers and his career totals, he'll be a top grade shortstop. In fact, the last 2 years, he's averaged the 4th best WAR among all shorstops in baseball. And he's yet to put together a year where his defense and offense were both good.

[Dipre]

I agree 100% that SS was a hole last year and not much better than having a pitcher in the line-up most of the time' date=' and I don't think I can emphasize enough how important I think solidifying the position is but he'll still just be a bottom of the order guy who couldn't manage a .700 OPS in his previous two years.[/quote']

 

Marco Scutaro had a .789 OPS last year.

 

In fact, Scutaro sports a .704 OPS during his four-year AL career.

[Dipre]

The Red Sox have also improved offense in backup catcher (Kottaras to Varitek) and backup outfielder (Rocco to Hermida).

 

V-Mart is really being under rated here, except for several posters who have brought him up. This is a legit middle of the order hitter that can give you .300 avg, 20-25 HRs, 100+ RBIs. And if Youk wasnt hurt in April, he couldve had a 30 HR/100 RBI season

 

The Sox still lack a true four-hitter though. Youk ain't it.

[Red Foreman]

The Sox still lack a true four-hitter though. Youk ain't it.

 

That sums up all of my concerns about this team. I like the pitching, I like the D, I like most of the hitters each in their own vacuum but I'm not crazy about the line-up as a whole. Hopefully Papi comes back and he and Youk can put up a reasonable 3-4 combo.

[Imperial59]

V-Mart is really being under rated here' date=' except for several posters who have brought him up. This is a legit middle of the order hitter that can give you .300 avg, 20-25 HRs, 100+ RBIs. And if Youk wasnt hurt in April, he couldve had a 30 HR/100 RBI season[/quote']

 

You are right in saying that having V-Mart for an entire years is being vastly underrated. Last year we had 108 games of .209/.313/.390 hitter at catcher. We can probably count on those 100 games at catcher being replaced by V-Mart who's averaged something like .300/.375/.500 the last two years. That's almost a .200 point difference in OPS.

 

And if you look at the offense we got from SS last year, it was a combined /.245/.307/.372 line (.679 OPS). Scutaro's averaged an OPS of about .750 the last year in a pretty unfriendly hitter' spark.

 

So it's kind of silly to think that our offense is going to drop off going from a guy with a .921 OPS last year to a guy who's averaged an .800+ OPS the last two years in the outfield.

 

I don't think there's any reason to think we won't be a top 5 offense next year.

[Tyler Durden]

What about Victor Martinez?

[riverside sluggers]

The Sox still lack a true four-hitter though. Youk ain't it.

 

As long as its a stop gap 3-4 combo, Im content with it

[Imperial59]

The Sox still lack a true four-hitter though. Youk ain't it.

 

Youkilis is the PROTOTYPICAL 4 hitter. I don't think people realize just how great he is. He was 6th in the majors in OPS last year, and he's a career .344/.443/.559 hitter with RISP.

 

The last two years, with runners in scoring position Youk has hit .362/.486/.589 and .374/.445/.646. In all seriousness, he might quietly be the best clutch hitter in baseball.

[Imperial59]

Dont forget' date=' Chris Woodward also had some starts[/quote']

 

Chris Woodward and Gil Velazquez had 4 starts each. That probably didn't have much of an impact.