Boston Celtics 2009-2010 Thread

[jacksonianmarch]

For the record: the NBA will never regain the prominence it had in the Jordan era while every losing team can legitimately and fairly talk about referee fairness issues.

 

Jordan wasnt just he best player in the game, he was the closer, the distributor, the marketer's dream, etc. They could have won 8 consecutive if he didnt retire to play baseball. He was that good. In the playoffs, he wasnt going to be beaten once he perfected his game.

 

The NBA needed the Celts and Lakers, but they really need another Bird-Magic. Transcendant players on marquee teams who both are winners. Kobe is that player in LA. Lebron was supposed to be that player, but he has been surrounded by such a pile of s*** that he hasnt had the supporting cast to help.

[Rdsxmbnt]

Pretty amazing playoffs for the Celtics overall though, a #4 seed, beating Wade, Lebron, Howard, and taking Kobe/Gasol right to the edge all while being the lower seed (except against the Heat).

[See Red]

Jordan wasnt just he best player in the game' date=' he was the closer, the distributor, the marketer's dream, etc. [b']They could have won 8 consecutive if he didnt retire to play baseball[/b]. He was that good. In the playoffs, he wasnt going to be beaten once he perfected his game.

 

The NBA needed the Celts and Lakers, but they really need another Bird-Magic. Transcendant players on marquee teams who both are winners. Kobe is that player in LA. Lebron was supposed to be that player, but he has been surrounded by such a pile of s*** that he hasnt had the supporting cast to help.

 

You mean if he didn't get suspended?

 

People forget that those Bulls teams without Jordan were pretty damn good. They won 55 games without him one of those years. They won 57 games the year before with him.

[See Red]

Aww s***...

 

When asked what this means personally for Kobe...

 

"I got one more than Shaq."

 

Awesome.

[bsox0407]

Well it was a great season. Made it way past the expectations and let this game slip away.

 

Globe says that Sheed is contemplating retirement don't know if that is just the way this on ended but if he does it is too bad the Celts let this one slip.

 

As for Allen i would love for him to stay next year especially if he take a healthy pay cut. Hope his agent is Scott Boras lol. A bench player or two and this team will have a good shot next year.

[example1]

There is no comparing Jordan and Kobe. Those who try are just trying to fill up space. Look at their stats... per-game, in the playoffs, per-minute, Jordan was the superior player by a lot. Kobe is very good, don't get me wrong, he just can't touch Jordan.

 

As for the Celtics, I watched the game intently and was biting my nails and swearing loudly down to the very end. Now that a few hours have passed I'm mostly just thankful that they had the run that they did against teams that were superior in many ways. The Lakers deserved this game and I think they won it because of home court advantage and a shot here or there. The Celtics made it very close, even after the Lakers turned it on at the end, and it ultimately required the Lakers to sink their FTs to win. All in all, a great playoff series and a well-deserved victory for those s*** eating Lakers.

[See Red]

There is no comparing Jordan and Kobe. Those who try are just trying to fill up space. Look at their stats... per-game' date=' in the playoffs, per-minute, Jordan was the superior player by a lot. Kobe is very good, don't get me wrong, he just can't touch Jordan.[/quote']

 

Basketball isn't a game where stats tell the entire story.

 

And if they did tell the entire story, well... there's no comparing Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain. Those who try are just trying to fill up space.

[bsox0407]

Basketball isn't a game where stats tell the entire story.

 

And if they did tell the entire story, well... there's no comparing Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain. Those who try are just trying to fill up space.

 

Bill Russell was better. 11 as player two as a player coach. Jordan is better than Kobe hands down. But there were players better than Kobe and Lebron. Wilt, Magic, West, Russell and thats just to name a few.

[See Red]

Bill Russell was better. 11 as player two as a player coach. Jordan is better than Kobe hands down. But there were players better than Kobe and Lebron. Wilt' date=' Magic, West, Russell and thats just to name a few.[/quote']

 

Bill Russell was always playing with, like, four hall of famers at any point in his career.

 

Why are people so hung up on this idea that team accomplishments represent individual ability?

[bsox0407]

Look at the players Kobe played with Fisher, Horry, Shaq, Gasol, Artest.

 

There are no one man shows in Basketball. Jordan had Pippen.

 

Russell had Hondo. Bird had Mchale.

[See Red]

Look at the players Kobe played with Fisher, Horry, Shaq, Gasol, Artest.

 

There are no one man shows in Basketball. Jordan had Pippen.

 

Russell had Hondo. Bird had Mchale.

 

I'm not saying Kobe hasn't played with good players, I mentioned earlier that the Bulls won 55 games in Jordan's absence, but those Celtics teams were loaded. Wilt's teams simply weren't. But when the two played head to head 142 times, Wilt averaged 28 points, 28 rebounds, while Russell averaged 14 points, 23 rebounds.

 

If Kobe played with all of those guys at the same time... then you'd be on to something. But Robert Horry? He was just about good exclusively for his ability to hit big shots, he was maybe an average otherwise.

[RWTP24]

LMAO! Great post game interview Doc. What a freaking idiot. Blame everything on Perkins being hurt. Lol!

[WhiskeyBreath]

How many FT did the Lakers attempt in that 4th quarter? 50? They pretty much let them play for the first 3 quarters then they get whistle happy in LA's favor in the 4th. Gotta love the NBA.

 

Anyone know the FT numbers for each team for the entire series?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

LMAO! Great post game interview Doc. What a freaking idiot. Blame everything on Perkins being hurt. Lol!

Well he wouldn't dare blame Ray Allen for heaving up brick after brick after brick and shooting the Celtics right out of the game. We were outrebounded by 20, and still in the game till the final seconds, up by 13 at one point. Makes losing the game the way we did that much more infuriating and inexcusable.

 

If Allen is re-signed, I will kill Danny Ainge myself.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Fawk. Theres your game pretty much. Scrub ass Ray Allen's in ability to shoot f***ed us. I've never seen such a piss poor display of rebounding either.

Not just inability to shoot, but inability to recognize that he's not hitting anything and hurting the team. f***ing retard he is.

 

The rebounding thing is understandable, since we were a dogshit rebounding team to begin with and this time we were without Perkins.

[example1]

Basketball isn't a game where stats tell the entire story.

 

And if they did tell the entire story, well... there's no comparing Jordan and Wilt Chamberlain. Those who try are just trying to fill up space.

 

An excellent use of overreach.

 

In the playoffs

Jordan 32.4pts/6.4reb/5.7ast,

Kobe 25.5/5.2/4.8

 

In 179 playoff games Jordan scored 5987 pts, had 1022 assists and 1152 rebounds

In 198 playoff games Kobe scored 5052 pts, had 955 assists and 1027 rebounds

 

In 19 fewer playoff games Jordan scored more than 900 more points, had 67 more assists and 135 more rebounds.

 

I realize there are differences but nobody is arguing the qualatative greatness of Joradan. Just about everyone who watched him sees him as the unanimous best player of all time. The stats back him up. Kobe would have a better argument if his numbers were better but he didn't seem better. That's not the case.

 

Kobe is a tremendous player, in the top 5 all time. Jordan just seemingly never failed when it mattered. He was all over the place on the floor and dominated just about every game he played.

 

If you had to a choice between Jordan and Kobe in their primes for one game would you really take Kobe?

[yeszir]

Also, Kobe rapes people.

[redsoxrules]

Also' date=' Kobe rapes people.[/quote']

 

also bitches at the ref's non stop .

 

he should get way more Technical fouls than he does

[Dojji]

Yes well, that's the NBA's WWF-style refereeing for you.

[Spudboy]

The Celt's didn't loose this series because of bad officiating.

 

They didn't control the boards. Everything is determined by possession of the ball.

[See Red]

also bitches at the ref's non stop .

 

he should get way more Technical fouls than he does

 

He really shouldn't. There's certain ways to talk to the refs. He doesn't jump around and swing his arms and make the referees look bad.

[See Red]

An excellent use of overreach.

 

In the playoffs

Jordan 32.4pts/6.4reb/5.7ast,

Kobe 25.5/5.2/4.8

 

In 179 playoff games Jordan scored 5987 pts, had 1022 assists and 1152 rebounds

In 198 playoff games Kobe scored 5052 pts, had 955 assists and 1027 rebounds

 

In 19 fewer playoff games Jordan scored more than 900 more points, had 67 more assists and 135 more rebounds.

 

I realize there are differences but nobody is arguing the qualatative greatness of Joradan. Just about everyone who watched him sees him as the unanimous best player of all time. The stats back him up. Kobe would have a better argument if his numbers were better but he didn't seem better. That's not the case.

 

Kobe is a tremendous player, in the top 5 all time. Jordan just seemingly never failed when it mattered. He was all over the place on the floor and dominated just about every game he played.

 

If you had to a choice between Jordan and Kobe in their primes for one game would you really take Kobe?

 

Different players, different circumstances. Jordan was on a team where he was asked to carry the scoring load more -- doesn't mean he wasn't surrounded by talent, as I'll again remind you that the Bulls finished second in the Eastern Conference while he was suspended. Kobe played with another guy who scored 25 a game.

 

Kobe plays in an era of more complicated defenses and bigger, stronger, faster players.

 

Honestly... where was Jordan's game so much better?

[The Village Idiot]

Um, it is kinda difficult to control the boards when you lose your starting Center with 1/3 of the series to go and you're simultaneously getting gang-raped by the officiators.

 

Look kids, the stats don't lie: 37-17 in FT attempts for the Lakers vs. the Celts respectively in Game 7.

 

I mean, how is that even allowed? How? How? How? How?

[See Red]

Um, it is kinda difficult to control the boards when you lose your starting Center with 1/3 of the series to go and you're simultaneously getting gang-raped by the officiators.

 

Look kids, the stats don't lie: 37-17 in FT attempts for the Lakers vs. the Celts respectively in Game 7.

 

I mean, how is that even allowed? How? How? How? How?

 

Look at Game Two of the 2008 NBA Finals -- it happens.

 

I'm usually willing to call it one way or the other regardless of who I'm cheering for, and I didn't think the officiating was bad towards one team or another. A lot of the fouls were in the fourth quarter, when the Celtics were very passive and the Lakers were considerably more aggressive, and that typically results in more free throws for one team.

[YanksHater213]

I hated the way the refs called this series; it's the f***ing finals, let them bang.

 

The refs called a pretty fair and consistent series, I was getting frustrated with them during the 4th quarter on Thursday, but they were getting all the calls because the Lakers were vastly outworking the Celtics.

 

I hate to say it but it kind of looked like they wanted it more.

[TheMino007]

If the C's do a sign and trade with Ray and Pierce opts out, how much cap space would we have? We would we have enough to go after Amare or Joe Johnson?

[See Red]

If the C's do a sign and trade with Ray and Pierce opts out' date=' how much cap space would we have? We would we have enough to go after Amare or Joe Johnson?[/quote']

 

I would think so. I don't know, they make, like, $38 million combined, which by itself is more than enough. Unfortunately the NBA Salary cap is a confusing mess, so who really knows?

[example1]

Different players' date=' different circumstances. [/quote']

 

Obviously they were different players and the circumstances were different. That doesn't end the discussion. They weren't separated by 40 years, or by a shorter schedule, a lack of a 3 point line or anything like that. They had the same coach for crying out loud. I think a comparison can be made here.

 

Jordan was on a team where he was asked to carry the scoring load more -- doesn't mean he wasn't surrounded by talent, as I'll again remind you that the Bulls finished second in the Eastern Conference while he was suspended.

 

Nobody is saying Jordan wasn't surrounded by talent. I think that any NBA championship caliber team has lots of talented players.

 

Look at win shares. From 1986-87 to 1996-1997 Jordan led the NBA in Win Shares 7 years in a row, and 9 out of 10 years. His low season was 16.9. Kobe has never had 16.9 in a season.

 

Honestly... where was Jordan's game so much better?

 

I would ask, where wasn't it better? He was a better natural defender and a better natural leader. He took better shots, turned the ball over less, dealt the ball better, rebounded better and ultimately scored more points. His numbers were even better in the playoffs when he was playing against the best in the league.

 

The only area where Kobe is obviously better is 3PT%.

 

 

I think there is reasonable argument about whether Kobe is even the best Laker ever, let alone the best player of all time.

[See Red]

Obviously they were different players and the circumstances were different. That doesn't end the discussion. They weren't separated by 40 years' date=' or by a shorter schedule, a lack of a 3 point line or anything like that. [i']They had the same coach[/i] for crying out loud. I think a comparison can be made here.

 

 

 

Nobody is saying Jordan wasn't surrounded by talent. I think that any NBA championship caliber team has lots of talented players.

 

Look at win shares. From 1986-87 to 1996-1997 Jordan led the NBA in Win Shares 7 years in a row, and 9 out of 10 years. His low season was 16.9. Kobe has never had 16.9 in a season.

 

 

 

I would ask, where wasn't it better? He was a better natural defender and a better natural leader. He took better shots, turned the ball over less, dealt the ball better, rebounded better and ultimately scored more points. His numbers were even better in the playoffs when he was playing against the best in the league.

 

The only area where Kobe is obviously better is 3PT%.

 

 

I think there is reasonable argument about whether Kobe is even the best Laker ever, let alone the best player of all time.

 

Jordan's a better shooter? Of course Jordan shot a better % from the field because Kobe's attempted 2,051 more three pointers than Jordan did in his career -- three pointers are, by nature, a lower percentage shot. And naturally that's going to bring his shooting percentage down as well. A much better indicator would be points per field goal attempt, where Jordan does have an advantage so slight it's silly to hold it against kobe. Kobe was better from three, as you mentioned, and if you don't think Kobe has a great mid-range game you clearly haven't been watching him play. It has also been said that Kobe, having worked with Hakeem Olajuwon, has one of the best post up games of any guard ever. Free throws are even.

 

Jordan's a better leader? He punched Steve Kerr and Will Perdue in practice, ran Doug Collins out of town because Collins wanted a more team-oriented approach, called Kwame Brown a "flaming faggot" when Brown was just out of High School (and drafted by Jordan, hm...), and there has to be more than that -- that's without even mentioning the secret suspension for gambling. Kobe "ran" Shaq out of town, but considering Shaq's had bad breakups with every team since leaving the Lakers, it's beginning to look less and less like Kobe's fault.

 

Jordan turned the ball over less? Kobe's averaged 2.9 per game, Jordan averaged 2.7. What an overwhelming margin...

 

Jordan's a better defender? Kobe, like Jordan, is an annual fixture on the first team all-defensive team. Jordan was great, don't get me wrong, but Pippen was the better defender of the two and is the one who typically defended the opposing teams best player. Jordan had more steals per game than Kobe, but so did Allen Iverson and he wasn't much of a defensive presence, was he? Kobe also plays in an era where you can't hand check opponents and aren't allowed to be as physical.

 

For assists, in their primes the numbers are about equal. Kobe's career numbers in all categories are hindered a bit by the fact that he entered the league as an 18 year old.

 

Yeah, the eras aren't so different, but not counting Jordan's stint with the Wizards, Kobe was 18 and 19 years old in Jordan's last two years. The game has actually changed a bit since then. As I said, more complicated defenses, bigger, stronger, faster players.

 

By the way, win shares is a pretty worthless stat in basketball.

[example1]

You make some great points, but its funny how you argue that I'm wrong about things while pointing out that the margins actually were different in Jordans favor. Just sayin'. If Jordan actually averaged more assists and rebounds and points and steals then don't argue that he didn't by saying that he only barely did.

 

Yeah, I call Jordan a better leader. His teams just won. All talking aside. And all the revisionist history in the world won't write away the fact that people who watched those teams knew that Jordan was the reason they won. Rodman and Pippen were great pieces, but the unworldly talent that Jordan had allowed him to average 30 points per-game and carry his teams, every year. Likewise, Ron Artest is widely seen as one of the best defenders in the league and Gasol (and Shaq) were two of the best centers at their times.

 

I call him a better shooter because he didn't take shots he couldn't make. Taking 3 pointers is a choice, not a necessity, and it hasn't led to more points or wins for Kobe's team so the decision making is questionable.

 

Kobe entering the league at 18 wasn't forced on him. It was something he chose to do. Jordan won a national championship in college, which Kobe could have done if he didn't go to the NBA. It was Kobe's choice.

 

As for defense, I think it is something that Jordan came into the league doing better than Kobe and which Kobe really had to work at. Don't get me wrong, Kobe is an excellent defender but how do you account for their significant difference in steals over the years? Jordan led the league 3 times. Not something that happens by accident.

 

As for the players being bigger, faster and better I think I would dispute that, and the numbers seem to back me up.

 

1993-94: Average height: 6'7.34 Average weight: 221.68

2007-2008: Average height: 6'6.98 Average weight: 221.00

 

http://www.nba.com/news/survey_height_2007.html

http://www.nba.com/news/survey_2004.html

 

I don't have 2009-10 in front of me, but 07-08 is close enough in my book.

 

When I think back about the teams that Jordan had to beat throughout the league I remember a number of very good, long and athletic players. I think of Larry Bird, Kareem, Magic, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Clyde Drexler, Hakeem, Ewing, Reggie Miller, John Stark, David Robinson, etc., who were all really good players and would be elite talent in today's game too. By the end players like Shaq, Tim Duncan, Jason Kidd, Kevin Garnett, etc., were all at full speed. I just don't see a drop off in quality, particularly if you look at the various "dream teams" and how they might stack up against today's players.

 

For context, I'd put Dream Team 1 up against the 2010 version for sure.

 

David Robinson

Patrick Ewing

Larry Bird

Scottie Pippen

Michael Jordan

Clyde Drexler

Karl Malone

John Stockton

Chris Mullin

Charles Barkley

Magic Johnson

Christian Laettner (?)

 

vs.

 

Carlos Boozer

Jason Kidd

LeBron James

Deron Williams

Michael Redd

Dwayne Wade

Kobe Bryant

Dwight Howard

Chris Bosh

Chris Paul

Tayshaun Prince

Carmelo Anthony

 

I just don't see the huge differences between players 15 years ago and today, all in all. There might be a bit more influence of athleticism than there was then, but that might come with a loss in "fundamentals" and quality play.