2009 World Series: Phillies @ Yankees

[Dipre]

Really dude? The Sox are in a better position to compete with the Yankees for Free Agents than anyone' date=' including the Mets. They have done so in the past and continue to do so. The reason the Yankees seemingly win most of the bidding wars is because the Sox know when to stop, which is smart. The Yankees overpay ridiculously for certain players, who most of the time don't live up to their expectations and fizzle out, or can't live up to the pressures of playing in New York and soon find themselves elsewhere with the Yankees eating a big chunk of the contract. The Sox can absolutely compete with the Yankees, they just don't always go to the lengths that the Yankees do out of smart, strategic thinking. But you really need to give up this argument, the Red Sox are in no worse a position than the Yankees to spend money; they're just Jewish about it and spend wisely (no offense to any jews on the board ).[/quote']

 

This is failthought.

 

Name one time the Sox have beat the Yankees for a FA. (Matsuzaka posting fee doesn't count)

[26 to 6]

This is failthought.

 

Name one time the Sox have beat the Yankees for a FA. (Matsuzaka posting fee doesn't count)

I didn't say that they always do, but when they don't it's usually because the Yankees foolishly overpayed. It has happened though. Damon in '02 (he negotiated with the Yankees but the Yankees didn't feel he was worth what the Sox offered him), Manny (Sox wanted him more but the Yanks were definitely in on him, just didn't have as big a need as the Sox), and David Ortiz come to mind (Steinbrenner wanted Ortiz but Papi wasn't viewed as an elite offensive player at the time, and didn't want to pay him as well as the Red Sox did, which was only under a million and a half). Not to mention I'm sure the Sox have beaten out the Yankees on the international front quite a few times.

[26 to 6]

Now none of those are great examples, but it doesnt mean the Red Sox aren't capable of competing with the Yankees in the Free Agent market. But sometimes rather than overspend on an older veteran to beat out the Yankees (which keep in mind hasn't usually worked out too well for the Yankees prior to this year), they find other efficient ways to build their team.

[Dipre]

Now none of those are great examples' date=' but it doesnt mean the Red Sox aren't capable of competing with the Yankees in the Free Agent market. But sometimes rather than overspend on an older veteran to beat out the Yankees (which keep in mind hasn't usually worked out too well for the Yankees prior to this year), they find other efficient ways to build their team.[/quote']

 

Mark Teixeira.

[TheKilo]

No. Homegrown is homegrown...whether the player started playing in 1995 or 2009. I'd say the former is actually more impressive' date=' developing a player that has been productive for over a decade and been retained by the team for that entire time (minus Pettitte) is no easy task.[/quote']

 

Except when the team in question can spend more money retaining their "homegrown talent" more than any other.

[TheKilo]

Kilo, also, I don't understand how can you can that the Yankees financial advantage renders the Red Sox financial advantage irrelevant. The goal, in terms of how you create your team, is to make the playoffs. You build your team to perform over a 162 game sample size, and then you take your chances in the playoffs.

 

Boston Red Sox payroll: $121,745,999

Toronto Blue Jays payroll: $80,538,300

Baltimore Orioles payroll: $67,101,666

Tampa Bay Rays payroll: $63,313,034

 

Source: http://www.getlisty.com/preview/2009-mlb-team-payrolls/

 

While the Yankees are best equipped to win the AL East, and have the best record in baseball. The Red Sox are best equipped to win the Wild Card.

 

You make a lot of good points. However, to say the Red Sox advantage is irrelevant, is flat out incorrect.

 

You siad it yourself in the other thread that the Yankees spending affects teams in their division more than any other....if the Red Sox want to entertain ANY ideas of making the playoffs they need to spend money.

 

However, the Sox don't get the same credit as the Yankees do for lowering their payroll, right?

[Gom]

But it's a sport first and foremost.

 

Football, basketball and hockey are also businesses.

 

Idiocy to the highest degree. Truly.

 

I will not defend ANY TEAM that overspends over the median. The amount a team overspends is pretty much directly related to it's success.

 

To state thy baseball is more of a sport than a business...well it figures it comes from Dipre.

[yankees228]

You siad it yourself in the other thread that the Yankees spending affects teams in their division more than any other....if the Red Sox want to entertain ANY ideas of making the playoffs they need to spend money.

 

However, the Sox don't get the same credit as the Yankees do for lowering their payroll, right?

 

Where aren't I giving the Red Sox credit for lowering their payroll? I have to tell you, I've stated many times on this board that I don't have any hate towards the Red Sox. I only root against them because their lack of success benefits the Yankees. The reason I feel this way is because I have an enormous amount of respect for their organization and for their accomplishments. I'm a Yankee fan, by birth, but if I were a Red Sox fan, I would be a proud one.

 

I understand that has no bearing on the debate, but I feel like you're backing me into the biased corner with all the Yankee fans who hate the Red Sox. That couldn't be further from where I am.

[Dipre]

Idiocy to the highest degree. Truly.

 

I will not defend ANY TEAM that overspends over the median. The amount a team overspends is pretty much directly related to it's success.

 

To state thy baseball is more of a sport than a business...well it figures it comes from Dipre.

 

Personal attacks:

 

The basis of any solid discussion.

 

Please make some sort of adequate statement instead of your typical "opinion" and save us all the time.

 

Thanks.

[Emmz]

To state that everyone's wrong, and he's so right, without proving anything... Well, it figures it comes from Gom.

[TheKilo]

Where aren't I giving the Red Sox credit for lowering their payroll? I have to tell you, I've stated many times on this board that I don't have any hate towards the Red Sox. I only root against them because their lack of success benefits the Yankees. The reason I feel this way is because I have an enormous amount of respect for their organization and for their accomplishments. I'm a Yankee fan, by birth, but if I were a Red Sox fan, I would be a proud one.

 

I understand that has no bearing on the debate, but I feel like you're backing me into the biased corner with all the Yankee fans who hate the Red Sox. That couldn't be further from where I am.

 

Not my intention. At all. You know I enjoy the back and forth we have on this site.

 

The Red Sox have to spend money because like you say, they are among those who feel the brunt of the unfair advantage the most.

[yankees228]

Not my intention. At all. You know I enjoy the back and forth we have on this site.

 

The Red Sox have to spend money because like you say, they are among those who feel the brunt of the unfair advantage the most.

 

Yup, I agree, which is why I give a lot of credit to the Red Sox. Their ability to compete with the Yankees, despite the difference in payroll, is certainly impressive.

 

Look, at this point, there isn't much else I have to say on the matter. The Yankees have an enormous advantage when it comes to money, and it played a large part in this years championship. If a fair system is a legitimate possibility, then I hope it comes to be.

 

My only contention, at this point, is that what they accomplished this year is still impressive, for a variety of different reasons. Winning those eleven games, against the best teams in baseball, is incredibly difficult. People can say that they should win because of their payroll, and it can be difficult to argue that point. But those eleven games are so tough that I don't think it's necessarily fair to say that. With the offseason the Yankees had, I think it's fair to say they should win the division, but the postseason is an entirely different story.

 

I know, to some, this comes off as biased Yankee fan talk, but those are my feelings on the matter.

 

TK, I also enjoy the back and forth.

[26 to 6]

Mark Teixeira.

Absolutely, and the list goes on and on and on. Doesn't mean the Sox couldn't ave upped their offer, but they know when to draw the line.

[Dipre]

Absolutely' date=' and the list goes on and on and on. Doesn't mean the Sox couldn't ave upped their offer, but they know when to draw the line.[/quote']

 

My whole point is that when dealing with the FA market other teams have to work around the Yankees. This is pretty much a fact.

[26 to 6]

Yup, I agree, which is why I give a lot of credit to the Red Sox. Their ability to compete with the Yankees, despite the difference in payroll, is certainly impressive.

 

Look, at this point, there isn't much else I have to say on the matter. The Yankees have an enormous advantage when it comes to money, and it played a large part in this years championship. If a fair system is a legitimate possibility, then I hope it comes to be.

 

My only contention, at this point, is that what they accomplished this year is still impressive, for a variety of different reasons. Winning those eleven games, against the best teams in baseball, is incredibly difficult. People can say that they should win because of their payroll, and it can be difficult to argue that point. But those eleven games are so tough that I don't think it's necessarily fair to say that. With the offseason the Yankees had, I think it's fair to say they should win the division, but the postseason is an entirely different story.

 

I know, to some, this comes off as biased Yankee fan talk, but those are my feelings on the matter.

 

TK, I also enjoy the back and forth.

I agree 100%, the Yankees had an amazing season. All of this crap about their payroll almost ruins it though. But on the other hand the Yankees have had the highest payroll each of the last 9 years that we DIDN'T win it all, and we all know how that turned out. While I'm of the belief that we SHOULD win, the fact that we actually did feels so good, considering how spectacular their season was. I'm pretty much done on the matter, I'm ready for what looks to be another fun-filled offseason and very much looking forward to pitchers and catchers reporting.

[26 to 6]

My whole point is that when dealing with the FA market other teams have to work around the Yankees. This is pretty much a fact.

Absolutely, I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that those "other teams" really don't include the likes of the Mets and Red Sox. Now there's no denying that if the Yankees really want somebody, no matter who the other suitors are, that they have the ability to sign them no matter what with their seemingly endless financial resources; but teams like the Red Sox and even the Mets aere in the best position to flex the same sort of financial muscle and keep up with the Yanks for the most part. I agree with what you're saying, but I disagree with your earlier post that the Sox can't compete with the Yankees in the FA market.

[Dipre]

Absolutely' date=' I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that those "other teams" really don't include the likes of the Mets and Red Sox. Now there's no denying that if the Yankees really want somebody, no matter who the other suitors are, that they have the ability to sign them no matter what with their seemingly endless financial resources; but teams like the Red Sox and even the Mets aere in the best position to flex the same sort of financial muscle and keep up with the Yanks for the most part. I agree with what you're saying, but I disagree with your earlier post that the Sox can't compete with the Yankees in the FA market.[/quote']

 

Please give me one time the Sox and Yanks have entered a bidding war the Sox have won.

[26 to 6]

Please give me one time the Sox and Yanks have entered a bidding war the Sox have won.

I can't, the only thing I can give you is the Daisuke posting fee, and a international FA's out of Latin America that you would know more about.

[yankees228]

At this point, though, the Red Sox are in a good position. They could probably outbid the Yankees for the big free agents this offseason, because the Yankees would probably be content to go with what they already have, or fall back on guys like Damon, Matsui, and Pettitte.

 

I really don't think you're going to see the Yankees spend money like they did this past offseason for a long time.

[Dipre]

At this point, though, the Red Sox are in a good position. They could probably outbid the Yankees for the big free agents this offseason, because the Yankees would probably be content to go with what they already have, or fall back on guys like Damon, Matsui, and Pettitte.

 

I really don't think you're going to see the Yankees spend money like they did this past offseason for a long time.

 

Yet i've read from different sources they're hot on Lackey.

 

And they'll probably sign him too.

[yankees228]

Yet i've read from different sources they're hot on Lackey.

 

And they'll probably sign him too.

 

That wouldn't surprise me, because they have a lot of money coming off the books. My point is, you're not going to see another offseason where the Yankees corner the market, and sign three huge names. They're also not going to be in on guys like Gonzalez or Halladay. The Red Sox have plenty of different routes they can go.

[Dipre]

That wouldn't surprise me' date=' because they have a lot of money coming off the books. My point is, you're not going to see another offseason where the Yankees corner the market, and sign three huge names. They're also not going to be in on guys like Gonzalez or Halladay. The Red Sox have plenty of different routes they can go.[/quote']

 

But what about the guy the Sox really wanted last year?

 

What happened with him?

[yankees228]

But what about the guy the Sox really wanted last year?

 

What happened with him?

 

All depends what, and who, you believe. It's not a black and white issue, like some, on both sides of the argument, want to paint it.

[Dipre]

All depends what' date=' and who, you believe. It's not a black and white issue, like some, on both sides of the argument, want to paint it.[/quote']

 

Question.

 

Do you think Boras would not go back to the Yanks to give them a chance to make a "final offer"?

[yankees228]

Question.

 

Do you think Boras would not go back to the Yanks to give them a chance to make a "final offer"?

 

It's possible. It's also possible that Teixeira would have signed on the spot, and not wanted to haggle over a little more money he could have gotten from the Yankees. It's also possible that, if given the opportunity, the Yankees wouldn't top the Red Sox offer. It wouldn't be the first time they turned down a star, after having already made big splashes. It's all conjecture, and nothing more. It's ridiculous to say the Red Sox would have definitely had Teixeira, but it's just as ridiculous to that he would have gone to the Yankees no matter what.

[Gom]

To state that everyone's wrong' date=' and he's so right, without proving anything... Well, it figures it comes from Gom.[/quote']

 

Where did I say everyone is wrong? Oh, I forgot....to you, Dipre IS everyone. Ah the beauty of Internet romance.

[Dipre]

It's possible. It's also possible that Teixeira would have signed on the spot' date=' and not wanted to haggle over a little more money he could have gotten from the Yankees. It's also possible that, if given the opportunity, the Yankees wouldn't top the Red Sox offer. It wouldn't be the first time they turned down a star, after having already made big splashes. It's all conjecture, and nothing more. It's ridiculous to say the Red Sox would have definitely had Teixeira, but it's just as ridiculous to that he would have gone to the Yankees no matter what.[/quote']

 

The Yankees had a gaping hole at first base.

 

You really think they wouldn't have topped that offer?

[yankees228]

The Yankees had a gaping hole at first base.

 

You really think they wouldn't have topped that offer?

 

They had that same gaping hole in center field going into 2005. They might have, been it might have only taken a couple million more for the Red Sox to get him. Or Teixeira might have just signed with the Red Sox. It's all conjecture, and it's foolish to assume one way or another. It would be illogical to ignore that fact.

[Dipre]

They had that same gaping hole in center field going into 2005. They might have' date=' been it might have only taken a couple million more for the Red Sox to get him. Or Teixeira might have just signed with the Red Sox. It's all conjecture, and it's foolish to assume one way or another. It would be illogical to ignore that fact.[/quote']

 

It would also be illogical to ignore the track record of Sox vs Yankees FA battles.

 

You also ignore the fact that there was no gain to be had from the Yanks blocking Beltran from the Mets, while blocking Teix from the Sox supplied them with an enormous indirect gain.

[yankees228]

It would also be illogical to ignore the track record of Sox vs Yankees FA battles.

 

You also ignore the fact that there was no gain to be had from the Yanks blocking Beltran from the Mets, while blocking Teix from the Sox supplied them with an enormous indirect gain.

 

Those are all valid points. But there are multiple logical scenarios, which I already mentioned, that might have put Teixeira in a Red Sox uniform. I really don't think you're being fair here. I'm not saying you wouldn't have ended up being right, because it's very possible that you would have been, but it's also possible that things would have turned out differently. I'm not in any position to make such a definitive statement, and neither are you. Logic exists on the both sides of the argument.

 

At this point we're rehashing the same stuff, so we'll have to agree to disagree I guess.