2009 World Series: Phillies @ Yankees

[jacksonianmarch]

Your point is moot example. You try to talk about home grown players and I point out that NY had the most. You try to point out the money factor, and I point out that we have more guys at league minimum than the sox do. Can you just admit that, while the sox have had a pretty solid development system, that NY's is finally starting to catch up?

[Dipre]

Your point is moot example. You try to talk about home grown players and I point out that NY had the most. You try to point out the money factor' date=' and I point out that we have more guys at league minimum than the sox do. Can you just admit that, while the sox have had a pretty solid development system, that NY's is finally starting to catch up?[/quote']

 

Please compare player quality of guys from '05-present.

[example1]

Your point is moot example. You try to talk about home grown players and I point out that NY had the most.

 

My point was that most of NY's substantial "home grown" players are only "home grown" because they came from the Yankees system, not because they are cost controlled or cheap or any of the other benefits of being "home grown". They are home grown in name only.

 

Can you just admit that, while the sox have had a pretty solid development system, that NY's is finally starting to catch up?

 

The Yankees get credit for Cano, Melky, Hughes and Chamberlain. Otherwise their collection is garbage.

[jacksonianmarch]

Lester and Youkilis take the cake. If Wang was still around, he would almost cancel out Lester. But we dont have an answer as of yet for the Youkilis power-patience combo from within. Montero could do it. So might Jackson (although I doubt it). The rest can be cancelled out one side or the other. I have said before that the sox started it earlier. Therefore they have some more established homegrown guys over the past 5-6 yrs. But the guys coming through now are in the process of securing their place on the team, and a LOT are due to come through shortly.

 

NYY started later, but their wave is coming in 2010-2011. Boston's wave came and restocked the team well. But they have 2-3 yrs before another wave hits.

[jacksonianmarch]

My point was that most of NY's substantial "home grown" players are only "home grown" because they came from the Yankees system, not because they are cost controlled or cheap or any of the other benefits of being "home grown". They are home grown in name only.

 

 

 

The Yankees get credit for Cano, Melky, Hughes and Chamberlain. Otherwise their collection is garbage.

 

for a guy who tries to pretend like he knows anything about baseball, this post seems to prove otherwise.

 

Aceves gets nothing out of you? Nothing, you would have loved to have had him. Coke was a pretty solid reliever. How about Robertson's numbers? They were better than Bard's. It starts with relief. The position prospects are coming. The only question is whether we trade them or try to incorporate them.

[Dipre]

for a guy who tries to pretend like he knows anything about baseball, this post seems to prove otherwise.

 

Aceves gets nothing out of you? Nothing, you would have loved to have had him. Coke was a pretty solid reliever. How about Robertson's numbers? They were better than Bard's. It starts with relief. The position prospects are coming. The only question is whether we trade them or try to incorporate them.

 

That statement is laughable at best.

[jacksonianmarch]

Player 1- 45G 43.2IP 36H 16ER 63K 23BB 3.30ERA 1.35WHIP 13K/9IP

Player 2- 49G 49.1IP 41H 20ER 63K 22BB 3.65ERA 1.28WHIP 11.5K/9IP

 

One of them is Robertson, the other is Bard. They are damn near identical

[Dipre]

Player 1- 45G 43.2IP 36H 16ER 63K 23BB 3.30ERA 1.35WHIP 13K/9IP

Player 2- 49G 49.1IP 41H 20ER 63K 22BB 3.65ERA 1.28WHIP 11.5K/9IP

 

One of them is Robertson, the other is Bard. They are damn near identical

 

A) You said Robertson was better.

 

B ) Remind me of their respective roles in the bullpen again?

[jacksonianmarch]

Yeah, I knew Robertson had the better ERA and the K/9IP. Bard has the better WHIP.

 

Their roles? Bard was the setup man for about a month, then lost the job. Robertson started as a mop-up guy, then seemed to fit into the 7th inning role for a little while. Aside from Hughes and Rivera, there were no true set roles in the NY bullpen.

[26 to 6]

The problem is that the camera was not out of play. It was sticking out over the fence. When the lineup cards are exchanged prior to the game' date=' the umpires are supposed to inform both teams of any quirks or anomalies that might effect balls in play. Apparently, they did not do this. It's not too big a deal, but it speaks to how poor a job the umpires have done this postseason.[/quote']

Another thing I didn't notice was a yellow line at the top of the wall. It had me wondering whether or not the silver metal railing-type thing above the padding on the fence was in play or a Home Run.

 

The Yankees get credit for Cano, Melky, Hughes and Chamberlain. Otherwise their collection is garbage.

Lets be fair, even though he was awful when he was healthy and didnt pitch much at all, we should still get credit for Wang, who as I recall was the winningest pitcher in baseball from '05-'08.

 

Also, Coke and Robertson have been pretty huge for us out of the pen.

[yankees228]

The only reason that the Yankees were able to spend so much money this offseason is because of all the money they had coming off the books. Granted, that won't matter towards the end of their contracts, but my point is that they do have limits. I wish they didn't have those limits, otherwise Carlos Beltran would be in centerfield.

[Dipre]

Yeah, I knew Robertson had the better ERA and the K/9IP. Bard has the better WHIP.

 

Their roles? Bard was the setup man for about a month, then lost the job. Robertson started as a mop-up guy, then seemed to fit into the 7th inning role for a little while. Aside from Hughes and Rivera, there were no true set roles in the NY bullpen.

 

Laughable argument. At best.

[example1]

for a guy who tries to pretend like he knows anything about baseball, this post seems to prove otherwise.

 

Aceves gets nothing out of you? Nothing, you would have loved to have had him. Coke was a pretty solid reliever. How about Robertson's numbers? They were better than Bard's. It starts with relief. The position prospects are coming. The only question is whether we trade them or try to incorporate them.

 

I'll be impressed if you try to incorporate them, but I expect them to be traded. Incorporating them could save them tens of millions of dollars.

 

Perhaps having A-Rod and Teixeira would be enough talent for the Yankees to finally have faith that multiple cost-controlled players can fit into their lineup without them not winning the World Series. I just doubt it.

 

Coke, Robertson and Aceves gave the Yankees a grand total of 2 WAR:

 

Coke: 0.1

Aceves: 1.2

Robertson: 0.7

 

For a point of comparison, Daniel Bard pitched many fewer innings than Aceves and had a WAR of 0.8. Justin Masterson (just during his stay with the Sox) was at 1.3.

[a700hitter]

With this system the Red Sox have been in the playoffs six of the past seven years. Has this club ever done that during your lifetime?

Most of my life there was no Wild Card. From 1986 to 1990, the Red Sox won 3 Division Championships in 5 years. Also, a number of the teams in the 70's would have made the playoffs if there had been a wild card.

 

Exactly which team are you jealous of' date=' at this point? The only one I can see that is obviously worthy of jealousy is the Yankees, but they have resources that the Sox don't, so being jealous of their resources is like being jealous of people who live in mansions and have learjets: an exercise in futility.[/quote']I am not the one who is jealous. This whole discussion began, because I agreed with 228 that winning is enjoyable whether you win with FA's or farm grown players. Others feel that it is more enjoyable to win with the farm guys. I don't agree. This has nothing to do with jealousy. If anything, those who think it is more enjoyable to win with the farm seem like they are being jealous. Don't you think?

It is fine to blame the Yankees winning on their huge FA spending. Without Teixeira and CC they aren't here.

I agree, but does that fact make winning any less enjoyable to the fans?

 

I feel like you see millions of dollars as just play money for these owners' date=' but you're one of the few people who thinks they can (or should) spend millions of dollars stupidly. It is either an [i']investment[/i] (in which case it MATTERS how much they spend) or it is a non-business-related decision, in which case it is basically play money.

You are 100% wrong about this. In my post, I compared the CC signing to the Dice K signing. IMO, the CC signing was a smart good investment compared to the $100 million flushed down the toilet for Dice K.

 

The reality is that the Yankees are the only team that can really warrant spending ungodly amounts of money year after year. Their media market is way' date=' way, way bigger than the Red Sox and they get returns on those extra wins. The Sox don't make significantly more money between wins #95 and #110 so it isn't a good investment.[/quote']They can probably maximize profit at about 90 wins this season, because they will sell out every game and they will not have to add to payroll with any acquisitions. Is that what you want them to shoot for as fan?

I' date=' for one, don't want you to become a Yankee fan. However, if you want to have a hugely imbalanced team that has a good percentage of its players become obsolete and overpaid in a few short years, you may want to reconsider.[/quote']I have outlasted many GM's and ownership groups. Good or bad, none of them could make me change my fan loyalty. To suggest that I reconsider routing for the Yankees if I don't like the FO philosophy is just stupid. BTW, I have not come close to criticizing the FO philosophy in this thread. Criticizing the Dice K move or the failure to get Halladay or Lee is not a condemnation of an entire philosophy, but of course you always try to make every criticism into a blanket condemnation. As I said before, this whole discussio began with a discussion of enjoying victory. I made no criticism of the Red Sox FO, so why are you picking an argument?

Remember' date=' the Yankees didn't just spend lots of money on CC and Teixeira. They also spend 32 MILLION on A-Rod this year, 20m on Jeter, 17.5m on Burnett, etc., They spent a shitload ontop of a shitload, which makes comparisons to the Sox business plans like comparing apples to oranges.[/quote']Reread my posts in this thread. I make no such comparison. I compared the joy of winning with or without FA's. I see no difference on that account.

[jacksonianmarch]

Laughable argument. At best.

 

We know you are an *******, and thats okay. So putting an insult in there work fine for you. But, if you dont want to be an ignorant *******, then you might want to dispute points instead of just making a useless post.

[Dipre]

We know you are an *******' date=' and thats okay. So putting an insult in there work fine for you. But, if you dont want to be an ignorant *******, then you might want to dispute points instead of just making a useless post.[/quote']

 

Got your panties in a bunch?

 

Be careful with those bedpans you're handling while in such fits of rage, you might end up getting your nurse outfit dirty.

 

The reason i won't "dispute your points" it's because it's obvious a lot of Robertson's innings were garbage innings while Bard basically ended up being the RH of the Sox's main setup tandem.

 

Even if you are a nurse, you're not stupid, so you know this. No need for me to point out that you're making s*** up (as usual).

[example1]

Player 1- 45G 43.2IP 36H 16ER 63K 23BB 3.30ERA 1.35WHIP 13K/9IP

Player 2- 49G 49.1IP 41H 20ER 63K 22BB 3.65ERA 1.28WHIP 11.5K/9IP

 

One of them is Robertson, the other is Bard. They are damn near identical

 

Jacko, I think you're missing the point by diverting this discussion into middling middle-reliever talk.

 

The idea that teams can home-grow their middle relievers should be STANDARD PRACTICE. It is what most clubs do, year after year. The Sox of 03 and 04 had a club that had many mercenary middle relievers, but over time they have moved away from that as one of the easiest ways of reproducing WAR without spendin gmuch money. Most middle relievers are the same: they aren't good enough to be closers or starters but they probably have some decent platoon splits. All in all, they aren't worth spending extra money on.

 

The Yankees finally being smart enough to realize this is not some great revelation, and it has no baring on whether they are truly starting to integrate a philosophy of home grown players into their franchise plan.

[jacksonianmarch]

and again with the insults. Not surprised. You'll probably be banned by February.

[Dipre]

Jacko, I think you're missing the point by diverting this discussion into middling middle-reliever talk.

 

The idea that teams can home-grow their middle relievers should be STANDARD PRACTICE. It is what most clubs do, year after year. The Sox of 03 and 04 had a club that had many mercenary middle relievers, but over time they have moved away from that as one of the easiest ways of reproducing WAR without spendin gmuch money. Most middle relievers are the same: they aren't good enough to be closers or starters but they probably have some decent platoon splits. All in all, they aren't worth spending extra money on.

 

The Yankees finally being smart enough to realize this is not some great revelation, and it has no baring on whether they are truly starting to integrate a philosophy of home grown players into their franchise plan.

 

He's not "missing the point". He's trying to divert it, which is what he always does when proven wrong.

 

And by the way, i continue to state that saying that Robertson was better than Bard is laughable at best.

[Dipre]

and again with the insults. Not surprised. You'll probably be banned by February.

 

Whatever, Mr. Hypocrite.

[yankees228]

Got your panties in a bunch?

 

Be careful with those bedpans you're handling while in such fits of rage, you might end up getting your nurse outfit dirty.

 

The reason i won't "dispute your points" it's because it's obvious a lot of Robertson's innings were garbage innings while Bard basically ended up being the RH of the Sox's main setup tandem.

 

Even if you are a nurse, you're not stupid, so you know this. No need for me to point out that you're making s*** up (as usual).

 

What do you consider to be a garbage inning?

[a700hitter]

It's not about the Yanks winning a chamionship. They're the best team, so they had the best chance at winning.

 

My gripe is the constant complaining about the FO's lack of desire to mortgage the future to win now.

 

You, my friend, are the one who needs to get a grip, and the whole political example has no bearing on the situation. Stick to baseball.

It was a great analogy, but you just got sore because I stuck it up your Dominican ass like like an uncooked plantain.

[Dipre]

It was a great analogy' date=' but you just got sore because I stuck it up your Dominican ass like like an uncooked plantain.[/quote']

 

Don't joke about plantains, they're delicious.

[jacksonianmarch]

Whatever' date=' Mr. Hypocrite.[/quote']

 

what are you going to do without this site Dipre? You'll find out soon.

[Dipre]

What do you consider to be a garbage inning?

 

What do you consider to be meaningful innings from a middle reliever?

 

You enlighten me. I'm obviously wrong and Robertson's awesomeness trumps Bard's futile attempts at pitching, so please let me know about my ignorant ways.

[Dipre]

what are you going to do without this site Dipre? You'll find out soon.

 

Mr. Rivernator, i believe this to also be an act of hypocrisy.

[a700hitter]

Don't joke about plantains' date=' they're delicious.[/quote'] I can't argue with that.

[Dipre]

I can't argue with that.

 

You ever eaten them mashed with butter?

 

Throw a cheese omelet in the mix with some orange juice and that's the essential Dominican breakfast.

[yankees228]

What do you consider to be meaningful innings from a middle reliever?

 

You enlighten me. I'm obviously wrong and Robertson's awesomeness trumps Bard's futile attempts at pitching, so please let me know about my ignorant ways.

 

There is absolutely no reason to respond with that kind of sarcasm. I wasn't implying anything. I was asking you a question.

[jacksonianmarch]

Mr. Rivernator' date=' i believe this to also be an act of hypocrisy.[/quote']

 

Dipre, it isnt just me my friend. You fight with everyone. As a Yankee fan here, I am used to it. But eventually, you will piss off the wrong person and get booted. I have seen it plenty of times.