2009 World Series: Phillies @ Yankees

[a700hitter]

So we're on a message board to do what? Not reply to people's posts? That's news to me. I spend the majority of my time in this forum instead of in the Red Sox forum simply because that seems to create unnecessary tension. Due to that fact' date=' I'm going to respond to a decent amount of the posts here. There was nothing nasty or antagonistic about the reply you quoted. I was simply backing up what Jacko said.[/quote']Sox fans get very touchy when the Yankees are about to win a championship. I've been told that I should root for the Yankees, because I noted that I like it when my team wins. People are on edge.

[yankees228]

Sox fans get very touchy when the Yankees are about to win a championship. I've been told that I should root for the Yankees' date=' because I noted that I like it when my team wins. People are on edge.[/quote']

 

Your fandom would be welcome lol.

[a700hitter]

Your fandom would be welcome lol.

For me, it would be like becoming a member of the Taliban.

[yankees228]

For me' date=' it would be like becoming a member of the Taliban. [/quote']

 

Haha, I figured as much. It definitely must be interesting being a Red Sox fan in New York.

[Dipre]

So, are you enjoying that we have this great player development system right now with our guys sitting at home and the Yankees about to win a Championship? I'm not.

 

You are missing my point. Of course it is good to have a strong organization. That is important for any business, but I don't go to the game to admire a team's business model. The efficiency of their organization doesn't add to my enjoyment of watching a winning team. As I am watching the Sox win, I don't care how the organization accomplished it. I don't sit and watch the credits at the end of a movie that I enjoyed. I'm not goin to enjoy it anymore, because they had a kick-ass crew.

 

You can answer snidely "sure, it's not your money," but I do go to a lot of games in Boston and Spring Training in Ft. Myers, so I do pay the expensive ticket prices. It would be far cheaper to be a fan of the Royals. In fact, rooting for any team other than the Red Sox would be cheaper. It is my money. What they do affects my pocket book. You watch the games on TV, so I don't know why the $ part of Free Agency would bother you.

 

Suggesting that I switch to being a Yankee fan, because that suits my style is just ludicrous. I hope that you were kidding. Are fans supposed to root for teams based on FO philosophy? It's also silly for any of us to try to denigrate a Yankee Championship because of their FA spending. That's just petty jealousy. We can tell them to shove it up their asses because we've had 2 Championships in the new century and that the Sox also have 2 Championships in the last 6 years, and if they win, the Yankees will have 2 in the last 10 years. That is a legitimate, but to argue about how they got their championship...? That makes no sense. Our team has slipped in each of the last 2 seasons, and without some major acquisitions, next season it could slip further. Our guys have spent lots of money throughout the years too, so let's not cry for them. The Dice K move is turning out to be a big waste. CC was a far better investment. When he is good, he is a dominating horse. When Dice K is good, well... he is just good.

 

Your logic is laughable at best.

 

And yes, you should root for the Yankees. They suit your mindset.

 

I bet Y228 could extend you a cordial invitation to the ranks of the Evil Empire, they need as many storm troopers as they can get.

[a700hitter]

Your logic is laughable at best.

 

And yes, you should root for the Yankees. They suit your mindset.

 

I bet Y228 could extend you a cordial invitation to the ranks of the Evil Empire, they need as many storm troopers as they can get.

You need to get a grip. I hate seeing the Yankees win probably more than anyone on this forum, because I live and work in NY and many of my friends, cousins and in-laws are Yankee fans. The Holidays will be a horror for me. Your "mindset" argument reminds me of the attacks that African American politicians and judges get in this country if they hold Conservative political views. The Democrats and the Congressional Black Caucus view them as traitors to their race. They would strip them of their race if they could. Everyone must think the same way or they cannot belong. Is that what you are saying?

[VA Sox Fan]

Sox fans get very touchy when the Yankees are about to win a championship. I've been told that I should root for the Yankees' date=' because I noted that I like it when my team wins. People are on edge.[/quote']

 

Thanks a700 although I refuse to believe this series is over. Yankee fans just don't get it.

[VA Sox Fan]

So we're on a message board to do what? Not reply to people's posts? That's news to me. I spend the majority of my time in this forum instead of in the Red Sox forum simply because that seems to create unnecessary tension. Due to that fact' date=' I'm going to respond to a decent amount of the posts here. There was nothing nasty or antagonistic about the reply you quoted. I was simply backing up what Jacko said.[/quote']

 

I joked with Gom about whether or not it was him that missed the HR ball in game 1. You jumped all over my ass.

 

I give Jacko s*** as I always have and always will and you jump to his defense.

 

I believe they are capable for speaking for themselves.

 

I HATE your team and most of their fans. You've always seemed cool, not sure what I did to piss you off.

[a700hitter]

Thanks a700 although I refuse to believe this series is over. Yankee fans just don't get it.

I'm not too touchy yet, because I am holding out hope that their hopes will be dashed. I will be far edgier if the Phillies lose tonight.

[yankees228]

Thanks a700 although I refuse to believe this series is over. Yankee fans just don't get it.

 

There is not a single Yankee fan that has said this series is over.

[VA Sox Fan]

I'm not too touchy yet' date=' because I am holding out hope that their hopes will be dashed. I will be far edgier if the Phillies lose tonight.[/quote']

 

I hear you.

 

It didn't help that 2 of the most obnoxious NYY fans I've ever met were at the sports bar last night. One with a Mantle jersey and the other with a Jeter jersey. Stereo-typical loud and obnoxious New Yorkers talking about their 26 WS blah blah blah. Didn't have much of a response when I mentioned 2004. Thank God they are just passing through helping their parents who have relocated to Richmond.

 

Man, I SO want the Phillies to win this thing.

[VA Sox Fan]

There is not a single Yankee fan that has said this series is over.

 

 

Not one fan in the whole wide world? Or just out here?

[yankees228]

Not one fan in the whole wide world? Or just out here?

 

Obviously here.

[a700hitter]

I hear you.

 

It didn't help that 2 of the most obnoxious NYY fans I've ever met were at the sports bar last night. One with a Mantle jersey and the other with a Jeter jersey. Stereo-typical loud and obnoxious New Yorkers talking about their 26 WS blah blah blah. Didn't have much of a response when I mentioned 2004. Thank God they are just passing through helping their parents who have relocated to Richmond.

 

Man, I SO want the Phillies to win this thing.

My cousin could have been either one of those guys. He has a Mantle and a Jeter Jersey. I don't think he was in VA yesterday though. I get to see him for Thanksgiving and Christmas. Lucky me.

[VA Sox Fan]

My cousin could have been either one of those guys. He has a Mantle and a Jeter Jersey. I don't think he was in VA yesterday though. I get to see him for Thanksgiving and Christmas. Lucky me.

 

 

UGH! You poor guy.

[a700hitter]

UGH! You poor guy.

Hence, my desperate win in all, win it now attitude. Do you see where I am coming from?

[VA Sox Fan]

Hence' date=' my desperate win in all, win it now attitude. Do you see where I am coming from?[/quote']

 

Yes and I am with you 100%!

 

I might have said it earlier, but GO PHILLIES!!!!:thumbsup:

[jacksonianmarch]

The real reason why bringing up lots of farm system players is that they're usually a little more inclined to sign club-friendly contracts, eliminate the hassle of dealing with the FA market, and of course, keep those draft picks rolling in so the next wave of talent can come along.

 

Those are important advantages, that's why FO's who have a mid-to-high payroll but also concentrate on player development are usually more successful (Boston) than the one who has a good payroll but went exclusively to the FA and prospect trades formula and now finds itself in a barrel full of suck (Seattle).

 

Of course you don't care "who the head of player development" is, but i'm pretty sure that pieces like Ellsbury, Youkilis, Pedroia, Lester and Papelbon (who you say is the best reliever the Sox have ever had, wonder where he came from?) would have been very difficult to add through the FA market and trade.

 

Baseball is business, and every team operates under a business model, if you don't care enough to understand the Boston Red Sox' business model (a very successful one by the way) i suggest you stop getting pissed at the "internet GMs who discuss finances" and switch to being a Yankee fan, that'd suit your style much better.

 

 

 

Of course you agree with him.

 

At one point this season, the Yankees had the most home grown players of any baseball team on their 25 man roster. So yeah, that "home-grown" argument doesn't work either since NY has done a pretty good job of getting something out of their farm system

[Dipre]

At one point this season' date=' the Yankees had the most home grown players of any baseball team on their 25 man roster. So yeah, that "home-grown" argument doesn't work either since NY has done a pretty good job of getting something out of their farm system[/quote']

 

Jacko.

 

Here's the thing.

 

Can you please stfu?

 

Did you hear me saying the Yanks have no homegrown players?

 

No.

 

Stop making s*** up, please please please.

 

What i meant is that the Yankees have THE highest payroll and the ability to buy any player they want without restraint, and that's partly because they've embraced the homegrown player philosophy with more conviction now, but they don't have a "moderately high" payroll, they have the highest payroll.

 

Again, please please please stop making s*** up. Thanks.

[example1]

So, are you enjoying that we have this great player development system right now with our guys sitting at home and the Yankees about to win a Championship? I'm not.

 

You are missing my point. Of course it is good to have a strong organization. That is important for any business, but I don't go to the game to admire a team's business model. The efficiency of their organization doesn't add to my enjoyment of watching a winning team. As I am watching the Sox win, I don't care how the organization accomplished it. I don't sit and watch the credits at the end of a movie that I enjoyed. I'm not goin to enjoy it anymore, because they had a kick-ass crew.

 

The Red Sox (or any team with a 'mere' $120m payroll) absolutely must have a great player development system and must be stingy. Note:

 

1. Even though they have been stingy and aware of the impact of contracts, going into 2010 they have more than 1/6th of their payroll going into Ortiz and Lowell who, I would argue, aren't worth much moving forward.

 

2. If they hadn't been cost conscious and hyperaware of player development, they could easily have more than half of their $ going to s***** contracts.

 

3. With this system the Red Sox have been in the playoffs six of the past seven years. Has this club ever done that during your lifetime?

 

You can answer snidely "sure, it's not your money," but I do go to a lot of games in Boston and Spring Training in Ft. Myers, so I do pay the expensive ticket prices. It would be far cheaper to be a fan of the Royals. In fact, rooting for any team other than the Red Sox would be cheaper. It is my money. What they do affects my pocket book.

 

So you would be happier if they signed overpriced FAs and made the playoffs as often as, say, the Cubs or Mets do?

 

Exactly which team are you jealous of, at this point? The only one I can see that is obviously worthy of jealousy is the Yankees, but they have resources that the Sox don't, so being jealous of their resources is like being jealous of people who live in mansions and have learjets: an exercise in futility.

 

You watch the games on TV, so I don't know why the $ part of Free Agency would bother you.

 

It would bother me for the same reason that it bothers me that Lowell and Ortiz's contracts suck right now. For any team (or country or family) with limited resources, losing a substantial portion of your salary to useless contracts completely limits what you can do later. Just like if I have to pay the interest on my credit card rather than paying down the principle on my house. They are both expendatures, but one is money out of my pocket, one is longterm investment.

 

We should have a pretty good idea at this point about what the Sox feel they can reasonably spend on their team: $140m is probably the very top line in any given season. That means they can reasonably spend just a bit more than they did last year, but not 3-4 FAs more.

 

Be happy a700. The Sox are in a position where they have a great core of a team to build around. When the time is right they will make those aggressive FA signings or resign current pieces and will be more than competitive with the Yankees.

 

Remember, last year the Yankees were sitting home watching at this time. Same with 2007, 2006, 2005 and 2004. The Yankees have been a lifelong problem for good fans like you, but if you look clearly at the past few years there's no doubt which franchise has been better. The 2009 club 'only' made it to the first round, but that isn't something to sneeze at.

 

Suggesting that I switch to being a Yankee fan, because that suits my style is just ludicrous. I hope that you were kidding. Are fans supposed to root for teams based on FO philosophy? It's also silly for any of us to try to denigrate a Yankee Championship because of their FA spending. That's just petty jealousy. We can tell them to shove it up their asses because we've had 2 Championships in the new century and that the Sox also have 2 Championships in the last 6 years, and if they win, the Yankees will have 2 in the last 10 years. That is a legitimate, but to argue about how they got their championship...? That makes no sense. Our team has slipped in each of the last 2 seasons, and without some major acquisitions, next season it could slip further.

 

I agree with everything you're saying, except:

 

1. It is fine to blame the Yankees winning on their huge FA spending. Without Teixeira and CC they aren't here. and

 

2. I still sense an insecurity in your words about whether the FO is really out to win, or if they just did 2004 and 2007 for show so they could steal your money. I feel like this is the ONLY way that any non-Yankees club can manage itself and be competitive year after year. The Angels follow a similar model (letting high priced FAs go, retaining their young players and draft picks, etc.,) and they are also a great example of how to compete.

 

I see no reason to be insecure. I think the FO wants to build a winning club again, I think they know what that means (in terms of being able to be a better team than the Yankees) and I think they are picking their spots.

 

You can write about how the team slipped this year and last, but I never saw either team as a huge threat to win the WS... certainly not the 09 team. That doesn't mean they failed in any huge way, it merely means they were like the other 29 teams in baseball--not good enough to win the WS. They will be back.

 

Our guys have spent lots of money throughout the years too, so let's not cry for them. The Dice K move is turning out to be a big waste. CC was a far better investment. When he is good, he is a dominating horse. When Dice K is good, well... he is just good.

 

I don't understand how you can use the words "investment" and yet expect them to shoot for wins above all else. You're right that CC has helped the Yankees win, but that doesn't mean he's a great investment. The extra few wins that he may cost the Yankees will likely cost them tens of millions of dollars more than what it should cost. That's a very, very expensive championship.

 

I feel like you see millions of dollars as just play money for these owners, but you're one of the few people who thinks they can (or should) spend millions of dollars stupidly. It is either an investment (in which case it MATTERS how much they spend) or it is a non-business-related decision, in which case it is basically play money.

 

The reality is that the Yankees are the only team that can really warrant spending ungodly amounts of money year after year. Their media market is way, way, way bigger than the Red Sox and they get returns on those extra wins. The Sox don't make significantly more money between wins #95 and #110 so it isn't a good investment.

 

 

I, for one, don't want you to become a Yankee fan. However, if you want to have a hugely imbalanced team that has a good percentage of its players become obsolete and overpaid in a few short years, you may want to reconsider.

 

Remember, the Yankees didn't just spend lots of money on CC and Teixeira. They also spend 32 MILLION on A-Rod this year, 20m on Jeter, 17.5m on Burnett, etc., They spent a shitload ontop of a shitload, which makes comparisons to the Sox business plans like comparing apples to oranges.

[Dipre]

You need to get a grip. I hate seeing the Yankees win probably more than anyone on this forum' date=' because I live and work in NY and many of my friends, cousins and in-laws are Yankee fans. The Holidays will be a horror for me. Your "mindset" argument reminds me of the attacks that African American politicians and judges get in this country if they hold Conservative political views. The Democrats and the Congressional Black Caucus view them as traitors to their race. They would strip them of their race if they could. Everyone must think the same way or they cannot belong. Is that what you are saying?[/quote']

 

It's not about the Yanks winning a chamionship. They're the best team, so they had the best chance at winning.

 

My gripe is the constant complaining about the FO's lack of desire to mortgage the future to win now.

 

You, my friend, are the one who needs to get a grip, and the whole political example has no bearing on the situation. Stick to baseball.

[example1]

At one point this season' date=' the Yankees had the most home grown players of any baseball team on their 25 man roster. So yeah, that "home-grown" argument doesn't work either since NY has done a pretty good job of getting something out of their farm system[/quote']

 

Just out of curiosity, how many of those players were middle relievers?

 

Jeter was "home grown" but his $20m salary makes that point moot.

 

Rivera and Posada too.

 

The only effectively "homegrown" players on the Yankees (as far as I see) are Cano, Melky, Hughes and Chamberlain. Who else am I missing?

 

Yes, it helps save the team some $$ when middle relievers are homegrown, so the team doesn't have to pay FA prices to them. It saves the team MUCH more money when marquee position players don't cost FA money.

 

Lester, Buchholz, Papelbon, Pedroia, Youkilis (for another year or so), and Ellsbury all fit that description IMO.

 

This would be a fun exercise:

 

Total up the $$ paid to all "home grown" players on both teams. Divide by the number of players, to see how much each team is paying its "home grown" players on average. Let's see if you're still bragging about the depth of the Yankee development machine at that point....

[jacksonianmarch]

Robertson, Coke, Gardner, and Aceves were all on the roster for pretty much the entire season

[Dipre]

The Red Sox (or any team with a 'mere' $120m payroll) absolutely must have a great player development system and must be stingy. Note:

 

1. Even though they have been stingy and aware of the impact of contracts, going into 2010 they have more than 1/6th of their payroll going into Ortiz and Lowell who, I would argue, aren't worth much moving forward.

 

2. If they hadn't been cost conscious and hyperaware of player development, they could easily have more than half of their $ going to s***** contracts.

 

3. With this system the Red Sox have been in the playoffs six of the past seven years. Has this club ever done that during your lifetime?

 

 

 

So you would be happier if they signed overpriced FAs and made the playoffs as often as, say, the Cubs or Mets do?

 

Exactly which team are you jealous of, at this point? The only one I can see that is obviously worthy of jealousy is the Yankees, but they have resources that the Sox don't, so being jealous of their resources is like being jealous of people who live in mansions and have learjets: an exercise in futility.

 

 

 

It would bother me for the same reason that it bothers me that Lowell and Ortiz's contracts suck right now. For any team (or country or family) with limited resources, losing a substantial portion of your salary to useless contracts completely limits what you can do later. Just like if I have to pay the interest on my credit card rather than paying down the principle on my house. They are both expendatures, but one is money out of my pocket, one is longterm investment.

 

We should have a pretty good idea at this point about what the Sox feel they can reasonably spend on their team: $140m is probably the very top line in any given season. That means they can reasonably spend just a bit more than they did last year, but not 3-4 FAs more.

 

Be happy a700. The Sox are in a position where they have a great core of a team to build around. When the time is right they will make those aggressive FA signings or resign current pieces and will be more than competitive with the Yankees.

 

Remember, last year the Yankees were sitting home watching at this time. Same with 2007, 2006, 2005 and 2004. The Yankees have been a lifelong problem for good fans like you, but if you look clearly at the past few years there's no doubt which franchise has been better. The 2009 club 'only' made it to the first round, but that isn't something to sneeze at.

 

 

 

I agree with everything you're saying, except:

 

1. It is fine to blame the Yankees winning on their huge FA spending. Without Teixeira and CC they aren't here. and

2. I still sense an insecurity in your words about whether the FO is really out to win, or if they just did 2004 and 2007 for show so they could steal your money. I feel like this is the ONLY way that any non-Yankees club can manage itself and be competitive year after year. The Angels follow a similar model (letting high priced FAs go, retaining their young players and draft picks, etc.,) and they are also a great example of how to compete.

 

I see no reason to be insecure. I think the FO wants to build a winning club again, I think they know what that means (in terms of being able to be a better team than the Yankees) and I think they are picking their spots.

 

You can write about how the team slipped this year and last, but I never saw either team as a huge threat to win the WS... certainly not the 09 team. That doesn't mean they failed in any huge way, it merely means they were like the other 29 teams in baseball--not good enough to win the WS. They will be back.

 

 

 

 

This. This. This. A million times this. Specially the bolded parts.

[jacksonianmarch]

Also, Youkilis, Pedroia, and Lester dont fit into the cheap category anymore. If you want to try and use that distinction, then you need to talk about the guys who are at league minimum.

[Dipre]

Robertson' date=' Coke, Gardner, and Aceves were all on the roster for pretty much the entire season[/quote']

 

The homegrown player point is moot. The Yanks have a ton of them.

 

What they Yankees don't have that other teams do have, are budget restraints.

 

They can keep all their players while buying all the outside ones they have. It's really that simple.

[Dipre]

Also' date=' Youkilis, Pedroia, and Lester dont fit into the cheap category anymore. If you want to try and use that distinction, then you need to talk about the guys who are at league minimum.[/quote']

 

Hometown discounts.

 

Don't try to bend the reality of it.

[jacksonianmarch]

The homegrown player point is moot. The Yanks have a ton of them.

 

What they Yankees don't have that other teams do have, are budget restraints.

 

They can keep all their players while buying all the outside ones they have. It's really that simple.

 

Yes it is, I agree with you

[Dipre]

Yes it is' date=' I agree with you[/quote']

 

Hell is about to freeze over.

[example1]

Red Sox (09 Salaries):

 

Papelbon: 6.25

Youkilis: 6.00

Pedroia: 1.50

Lester: 1.00

Delcarmen:0.47

Ellsbury: 0.45

Lowrie: 0.42

Buchholz: 0.41

Bard: 0.35

 

TOTAL: $16.85m

($1.87m/player)

 

Yankees (09 Salaries):

Jeter: 20.0

Rivera: 15.0

Posada: 13.1

Cano: 6.0

Pettitte: 5.5

Wang: 5.0

Cabrera: 1.4

Joba: 0.43

Ramirez: .42

Gardner: .41

Hughes: .41

Robertson: .41

Aceves: .41

Coke: .40

Cervelli: .40

 

TOTAL: $69.29m ($4.62m/player)