Bay vs. Holliday

[BSN07]

(LOL, This is kinda funny since you were just dreaming of him being a Yankee in the post before. )

 

Anyway I think the Yanks greatest need in 2010 will be another pitcher.

 

 

People got lulled into thinking it's all about the Bronx mashers after seeing what the Yanks did in the regular season on offense, particularly in that bandbox. The Yankees were able to get by on a 3-man rotation in their W.S. march (partially aided by too many off-days built in to the 2009 postseason) and.... receiving a superb year out of 37 year-old Andy Pettitte. These exact circumstances are simply not likely to repeat for the Yankees.

 

So forget Holliday, Bay. They just need another quality starting pitcher, depth.

 

Not sure there are many quality starters(FA's) who I would want to give contracts to come pitch in the AL East.

 

I was hoping the Sox would bring in Sheets on a 1 year deal. But unless Wake is going to the BP, Buchholz gets traded or someone comes up lame, I doubt the Sox add another SP IMO.

[SoxSport]

This is beginning to look like the case of the dog allowing the tail to wag the dog. The agent burned the bridge and eliminated what now looks like Bay's best option. It will be interesting to see who winds up with Bay after Holliday signs with St Louis--if the tail doesn't wag the dog, that is. Minaya may get stuck with Bay by default.

[TheMino007]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/base...iday/index.html

 

Bay gonna get 5 years from the Mets it looks like. The Yankees have said they wouldn't sign him long term, so it looks like Bay to the Mets is the only realistic option at this point.

[Dipre]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/base...iday/index.html

 

Bay gonna get 5 years from the Mets it looks like. The Yankees have said they wouldn't sign him long term, so it looks like Bay to the Mets is the only realistic option at this point.

 

If Bay signs with the Mets, Holliday with the Cards, and the Sox get A-Gon i will be a happy, happy man.

[Loretta2]

With both Bay and Holliday still available, what do you guys think the chances are that any deal including Ellsbury would lead to the Sox ALSO signing one of those two and playing Cameron in his natural CF?

 

Adding both AGon and Holliday would be IMMENSE for the middle of the Red Sox line-up.

 

Also, this is the only way I personally want Ellsbury involved in this trade.

 

[EDIT]: I posted this in another thread but it kind of got lost....

[Dipre]

With both Bay and Holliday still available, what do you guys think the chances are that any deal including Ellsbury would lead to the Sox ALSO signing one of those two and playing Cameron in his natural CF?

 

Adding both AGon and Holliday would be IMMENSE for the middle of the Red Sox line-up.

 

Also, this is the only way I personally want Ellsbury involved in this trade.

 

[EDIT]: I posted this in another thread but it kind of got lost....

 

Well honestly after spending so much on Lackey and Cameron, i don't see it happening. It would be sick though.

[Loretta2]

Well then do you suspect Reddick and Hermida to BOTH be heavily involved in the Sox's season should Ellsbury be moved? I really dont see Theo settling for that OF, and I dont think he should.

 

Pedroia

Youk

AGon

Holliday

Papi

VMart

Drew

Cameron

Scuturo

 

awwwww skeet skeet

[Emmz]

I think it's even less likely that he goes all Yankees this offseason and forks over a bunch of money for Matt Holliday... I just don't see that as likely. I think he trades prospects along with Buchholz to the Padres for A-Gon.

[TheMino007]

The Sox offered 5 years 82 million to Holliday (Lackey money) to Matt before they signed Lackey. The Sox are fast approaching the luxury tax threshold, so I don't think Theo is gonna throw out 15+ million a year for either Bay or Lackey even if they trade Ellsbury in a deal for Gonazalez.

[TheMino007]

Well, the door on Bay's career in Boston has gone from slammed shut to slightly ajar, the Sox have been taking internally about bringing Bay back. Currently, the best, and only offer so far is from the Mets at 4 years, 65 million. Nobody is giving him 5 years, so maybe the Sox 4 year 60 million dollar offer will be back on the table. Maybe 4 years 70 million, since its the years not the money per year which seems to be the trouble holding up the deal. That would put Cameron on the bench, but would he stay there? No, that makes Ellsbury expendable in a trade. Westmoreland will be ready when Drew and Cameron's deals are up.

[Dipre]

Well' date=' the door on Bay's career in Boston has gone from slammed shut to slightly ajar, the Sox have been taking internally about bringing Bay back. Currently, the best, and only offer so far is from the Mets at 4 years, 65 million. Nobody is giving him 5 years, so maybe the Sox 4 year 60 million dollar offer will be back on the table. Maybe 4 years 70 million, since its the years not the money per year which seems to be the trouble holding up the deal. That would put Cameron on the bench, but would he stay there? No, that makes Ellsbury expendable in a trade. Westmoreland will be ready when Drew and Cameron's deals are up.[/quote']

 

The signing would put Ellsbury on the bench, not Cameron. Otherwise you are correct.

[TheMino007]

You think a talent like that would be suited for the bench? I see him being traded more than anything. Your wasting his talents by letting him be the 4th OF and cripple his trade value.

[Dipre]

You think a talent like that would be suited for the bench? I see him being traded more than anything. Your wasting his talents by letting him be the 4th OF and cripple his trade value.

 

Not the context i was speaking in. It's not about whether or not it wastes his talents, but what the depth chart would actually look like. If he's not traded, he would serve as the 4th OF, since he wouldn't outproduce or make a 10th of the money of the other three outfielders. So, either trade or bench.

[Dojji]

I think you're focused a little too much on contract. Once on the team, contract isn't that big a deal. if players are getting roles based on what their contract is rather than what their talents are than past a certain point that's the mark of a bad manager.

[Dipre]

I think you're focused a little too much on contract. Once on the team' date=' contract isn't that big a deal. if players are getting roles based on what their contract is rather than what their talents are than past a certain point that's the mark of a bad manager.[/quote']

 

Not the context i was speaking in. It's not about whether or not it wastes his talents' date=' but what the depth chart would actually look like. If he's not traded, he would serve as the 4th OF, [b']since he wouldn't outproduce or make a 10th of the money of the other three outfielders. So, either trade or bench.[/b]

 

Read it again.

 

The first point was that he wouldn't outproduce none of them. And he wouldn't. The one he'd come closest to matching is Cameron, but he has superior defense in CF. The fact that Cameron makes nearly twenty times as much money is just icing on the cake.

 

Mike Cameron 2009 WAR: 4.3

 

Jacoby Ellsbury 2009 WAR: 1.9

[SoxSport]

Bay opens up a trade of Ellsbury for AdGon--maybe allowing them to keep Buchholz. They'll have to keep Buchholz if they want to keep that rabbit running ahead of them in their sights. Reminds you of those greyhound dog races. The dogs never quite catch the rabbit, which seems to run a little faster every time a dog gets closer.

 

Does anybody really expect that rabbit won't add a leftfielder? Holliday is ripe to be plucked, though he might rightly prefer St Louis.

[TheMino007]

I still ultimately believe Bay will be signing elsewhere, probably with the Yankees as they will swoop in at the last minute as usual, but it is great to think. If the Padres are really dead set on the getting both Clay and Jacoby in the same deal, then I don't think its getting done. If the Sox add Jason Bay, I don't think its drastic that the Sox get him. But if you trade Ellsbury, you need to keep Westmoreland as a future replace OF in CF or RF in two years. Ellsbury, Kelley, Anderson, Bowden, Reddick get the job done for Adrian Gonzalez? But the again, who leads off? I think Peds will be fine leading off b/c he hits for a higher average an OBP. Sure the speed element of the team is gone, but at least Bay can steal 15 bags for what is worth lol.

 

Pedrioa 2B

Drew RF

Youkilis 3B

Gonzalez 1B

Bay LF

Martinez C

Ortiz DH

Cameron CF

Scutaro SS

 

Have that lineup combined with the rotation that has Beckett, Lester, Lackey, Buchholz, Dice-K and thats a 100 win team and the Word Series Champion.

[Lester82]

probably with the Yankees as they will swoop in at the last minute as usual

 

Red Sox paranoia aside, you should realize that Jason Bay is actually a horrible fit for the Yankees. Holliday would be a much better fit, but neither is essential for them of course.

[example1]

If the Padres are really dead set on the getting both Clay and Jacoby in the same deal' date=' then I don't think its getting done.[/b'] If the Sox add Jason Bay, I don't think its drastic that the Sox get him. But if you trade Ellsbury, you need to keep Westmoreland as a future replace OF in CF or RF in two years. Ellsbury, Kelley, Anderson, Bowden, Reddick get the job done for Adrian Gonzalez? But the again, who leads off? I think Peds will be fine leading off b/c he hits for a higher average an OBP. Sure the speed element of the team is gone, but at least Bay can steal 15 bags for what is worth lol.

 

I feel like the idea of this FO trading Ellsbury and Buchholz is insanity. There is no way they would do it.

 

Yes, Ellsbury, Kelly, Anderson, Bowden and Reddick gets Adrian Gonzalez, that's WAY, WAY too much to pay. The Sox aren't just going to throw in other mlb-potential players for the hell of it.

 

I think Hoyer could be tempted (with former scouting director McLeod by his side) to pick from the bottom parts of the Sox minor league system, where there is a shitload of talent available, particularly if they are willing to wait until the 2009 class becomes available.

 

San Diego doesn't have the financial abilities to pay well above slot draft after draft, the Sox do. While it's only 1.5m here and 2m there, over a few drafts that adds up. These are also McLeod's players; what better way to start redefining a franchise than bringing a really talented pool of young players with you. Guys like Fuentes, Wilson, Renfroe and Younginer will be 2010's highly talked about prospects and they all will have value on the market.

 

 

The Sox could move Ellsbury is because CF is one of the positions with the best depth in their system; Kalish, Reddick, Lin, Westmoreland, and Fuentes (among others) make it a strong position depth wise. However, I like Ellsbury a lot and I think there's reason to believe that he can put it together to be a true impact player very soon.

 

If we combined his fielding numbers from 2008 and his hitting numbers from 2009 we're looking at one of the best players in the league, probably nearly a 5 WAR player. In 2008 he played a lot of LF and he excels there. I think they've got to be thinking that moving him to LF will maxamize his value and that his value could be pretty high in that position.

[Emmz]

I still ultimately believe Bay will be signing elsewhere, probably with the Yankees as they will swoop in at the last minute as usual, but it is great to think. If the Padres are really dead set on the getting both Clay and Jacoby in the same deal, then I don't think its getting done. If the Sox add Jason Bay, I don't think its drastic that the Sox get him. But if you trade Ellsbury, you need to keep Westmoreland as a future replace OF in CF or RF in two years. Ellsbury, Kelley, Anderson, Bowden, Reddick get the job done for Adrian Gonzalez? But the again, who leads off? I think Peds will be fine leading off b/c he hits for a higher average an OBP. Sure the speed element of the team is gone, but at least Bay can steal 15 bags for what is worth lol.

 

Pedrioa 2B

Drew RF

Youkilis 3B

Gonzalez 1B

Bay LF

Martinez C

Ortiz DH

Cameron CF

Scutaro SS

 

Have that lineup combined with the rotation that has Beckett, Lester, Lackey, Buchholz, Dice-K and thats a 100 win team and the Word Series Champion.

 

Well for one, I think Martinez would be more likely to hit second than Drew. And two, how can you see that's a World Series Champion? Asinine, the playoffs are a crapshoot, you can't say that it's a sure thing in the playoffs, because that's where pretty much anything, and everything can happen.

[Keeper]

The playoffs may be a crapshoot, but you have to admit with a roster like that the Sox would probably be favored to win it all. "Asinine" is a bit too abrasive here.

[diony]

 

Yes, Ellsbury, Kelly, Anderson, Bowden and Reddick gets Adrian Gonzalez, that's WAY, WAY too much to pay. The Sox aren't just going to throw in other mlb-potential players for the hell of it.

 

A 27 year old 6.0 WAR 1B with above average defense and cost controlled for the next two years. I think that's a fair package right now, considering that Anderson's and Bowden's stock is as low as ever.

[Dipre]

The playoffs may be a crapshoot' date=' but you have to admit with a roster like that the Sox would probably be favored to win it all. "Asinine" is a bit too abrasive here.[/quote']

 

Something asinine can be defined as something silly or stupid. She attacked the post, not the poster.While your opinion is valid, i fail to see the need to stir the pot.

[Emmz]

The playoffs may be a crapshoot' date=' but you have to admit with a roster like that the Sox would probably be favored to win it all. "Asinine" is a bit too abrasive here.[/quote']

 

I think you're probably the only person I've ever met who thinks the word "asinine" is abrasive. It means that it's nonsensical, or silly. If that's the way you feel, and you feel the need to incite something about it, then by all means, I won't use it towards you. However, when the meaning of the word isn't meant to display anything that could be deemed offensive, I can't say I see your point. I wasn't being inciteful, you were. Think about it.

[SoxSport]

I think a signing of Bay by the Red Sox would be a signal a deal for AdGon for Ellsbury + is in place. I don't think the Yankees are interested in Bay--not to play LF. They may not even be interested in Holliday in LF, but their cozy relationship with Boras must make the Cardinals nervous. Besides, the Yankees' bias is towards LHd hitters (and pitchers) for obvious reasons. The short RF porch in Yankee Stadium has always been their biggest weapon.

 

The Red Sox could get a leg up in the picture if they signed Bay to a backloaded contract and traded Ellsbury and Kelly/Anderson? (not Buchholz or Westmoreland or Kalish) for AdGon. It would leave them a lineup loaded with hitters but without much speed. Since they are not a smallball team anyways, pitching is a far more important factor and their defense would be better with Scutaro at SS and Cameron in CF. That assumes Youks can adjust back to 3B. Ellsbury does have holes in his game--notably a lack of walks--which makes him less than ideal as a leadoff hitter, but he has enough upside to be an attractive trading piece. He might hit .350 if he learns how to work a count and increase his walks.

[SoxSport]

The other thing about Ellsbury I forgot to mention is that his agent is Boras. That is an incentive for the Red Sox to want to deal him and for the Padres not to want him.

[example1]

A 27 year old 6.0 WAR 1B with above average defense and cost controlled for the next two years. I think that's a fair package right now' date=' considering that Anderson's and Bowden's stock is as low as ever.[/quote']

 

6 WAR is 6 WAR. The additions of "above average defense" is already included there. Ellsbury, Kelly, Anderson, Bowden and Reddick is way, way too much.

 

Ellsbury, Bowden, Pimentel and a few lower level players maybe, but not 3 former #1s in the system (Ellsbury, Anderson and Kelly), an MLB ready pitcher (Bowden) and an MLB ready OF with a cannon and decent pop (Reddick).

 

The next proposal could be that the Sox just trade the Portland Sea Dogs for Gonzalez.

 

I'm not shocked that a Yankee fan would propose the Sox pay way too much to get him, but it simply isn't something they would do.

[Osiagledknarf]

MLBTR

 

When I first saw this I thought You know what, though...if they're talking about upping the offer for Bay to about $16-$18 for Bay, why not just offer $17-$19 for Holliday (and the undoubted more value per dollar)?

[example1]

Welcome Osiagledknarf, there's a few thread devoted to this kind of thing already, so perhaps we should move this discussion there (2010 offseason thread, Bay vs. Holliday)

[Osiagledknarf]

Welcome Osiagledknarf' date=' there's a few thread devoted to this kind of thing already, so perhaps we should move this discussion there (2010 offseason thread, Bay vs. Holliday)[/quote']

 

Thanks dude. Sorry, I didn't see that. Go right ahead.