Bay vs. Holliday

[BSN07]

holliday doesn't want to come to boston.......he wants to go to the mets or yankees

 

Holliday will sign with whoever gives him the biggest check. Thats the way Boras operates.

[rhet]

Bay's defense is being used as a negotiating tool. Sox FO did a good job with the propaganda.

[TheKilo]

Bay's defense is being used as a negotiating tool. Sox FO did a good job with the propaganda.

 

What propaganda?

[MANNYHOF24]

Bay's defense is being used as a negotiating tool. Sox FO did a good job with the propaganda.

 

There is no propaganda, his defense is really that bad.

[rhet]

He makes the plays he supposed to make.

[Cocos Disciples]

He makes the plays he supposed to make.

 

He does have a league leading MTPHSTM of 67, but his UZRs the past three years are -11.5, -18.4 and -13, respectively.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=lf&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=y&type=0&season=2009&month=0

[BSN07]

He makes the plays he supposed to make.

 

Probably not the best way to gauge his defensive worth.

[Dojji]

But probably a consideration in an argument that his lack of defensive worth cuts the value of his bat.

[soxfan17881]

What about the idea that Holliday's hitting trailed off so significantly when he was hitting AL pitchers this year, then soared again when he went back to the NL?

[BSN07]

What about the idea that Holliday's hitting trailed off so significantly when he was hitting AL pitchers this year' date=' then soared again when he went back to the NL?[/quote']

 

That argument is always going to be countered with "He played in Oakland". Not the greatest place for hitters. That and his surrounding lineup was uninspiring.

[Dipre]

That argument is always going to be countered with "He played in Oakland". Not the greatest place for hitters. That and his surrounding lineup was uninspiring.

 

Plus the fact that his lifetime OPS against AL pitching is .880.

[Dipre]

But probably a consideration in an argument that his lack of defensive worth cuts the value of his bat.

 

The only one who's making that consideration is you, champ.

[rhet]

He does have a league leading MTPHSTM of 67, but his UZRs the past three years are -11.5, -18.4 and -13, respectively.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=lf&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=y&type=0&season=2009&month=0

 

His UZR is negatively overweighted by his lack of range. His other UZR components are average or better.

 

Since LF range in Fenway is largely immaterial, I'd say his overall defense should not be a major factor in his value to the Red Sox.

[Dipre]

His UZR is negatively overweighted by his lack of range. His other UZR components are average or better.

 

Since LF range in Fenway is largely immaterial, I'd say his overall defense should not be a major factor in his value to the Red Sox.

 

What about the other 81 games?

 

Listen, no one here is against the Sox signing Bay, but the fact is his defense is horrible and it's not going to get better.

[Spudboy]

I wouldn't say Bay's D is horrible. Just "not good".

 

All in all, he is a serviceable left fielder. I don't think he is a big liability defensively.

[Dipre]

I wouldn't say Bay's D is horrible. Just "not good".

 

All in all, he is a serviceable left fielder. I don't think he is a big liability defensively.

 

He can hit, that's the main point.

 

Downplaying how bad he really is defensively is intellectually dishonest. Sign the guy and ready the DH spot after Papi leaves.

[TheMino007]

I wouldn't say Bay's D is horrible. Just "not good".

 

All in all, he is a serviceable left fielder. I don't think he is a big liability defensively.

 

Totally agree. Worse case scenario is that he is the DH in a couple years. Then you can sign Crawford to play LF in 11, slide Bay to the DH and hopefully have Gonzalez or Cabrera or some beast at first base and Youk at third

[rhet]

What about the other 81 games?

 

Listen, no one here is against the Sox signing Bay, but the fact is his defense is horrible and it's not going to get better.

 

His defense is not 'horrible'.

That's just propaganda.

[Dipre]

His defense is not 'horrible'.

That's just propaganda.

 

"Propaganda?"

 

Ok buddy.

[TheMino007]

The whole propaganda thing isn't as crazy as it sounds. When the Sox FO feels that they can't re-sign a player or no longer want their services, they try to drag their name through the mud. I saw it in the Duquette era with Mo Vaughn and Roger Clemens, and in the Epstein administration with Nomar, Pedro, and Johnny Damon. I'm convinced that Bay is pretty much as good as gone. Hope he just signs with the Mariners and we don't have to worry about him coming back and biting us a lot.

[Cocos Disciples]

The whole propaganda thing isn't as crazy as it sounds. When the Sox FO feels that they can't re-sign a player or no longer want their services' date=' they try to drag their name through the mud. I saw it in the Duquette era with Mo Vaughn and Roger Clemens, and in the Epstein administration with Nomar, Pedro, and Johnny Damon. I'm convinced that Bay is pretty much as good as gone. Hope he just signs with the Mariners and we don't have to worry about him coming back and biting us a lot.[/quote']

 

This might be what they're doing, but his defense really is bad. We're not hearing this from the FO, we're seeing it with real statistics.

[redsoxrules]

His defense is not 'horrible'.

That's just propaganda.

 

Jesus christ ...Manny is a better defender than Bay

[Dipre]

The whole propaganda thing isn't as crazy as it sounds. When the Sox FO feels that they can't re-sign a player or no longer want their services' date=' they try to drag their name through the mud. I saw it in the Duquette era with Mo Vaughn and Roger Clemens, and in the Epstein administration with Nomar, Pedro, and Johnny Damon. [b']I'm convinced that Bay is pretty much as good as gone.[/b] Hope he just signs with the Mariners and we don't have to worry about him coming back and biting us a lot.

 

Explain why.

[TheMino007]

Jesus christ ...Manny is a better defender than Bay

 

No.

[TheKilo]

We aren't past the whole "Sox FO slings mud" phase yet?

 

Give me a f***ing break.

[Dipre]

We aren't past the whole "Sox FO slings mud" phase yet?

 

Give me a f***ing break.

 

This.One thousand times this.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

His defense is not 'horrible'.

That's just propaganda.

Stats are propaganda. Mmmmmmkay.

[rhet]

Bay makes the plays he's supposed to make.

Manny doesn't.

 

Bay's UZR is negatively overweighted by his limited range. His other three UZR components are either plus or neutral. To say he's a bad fielder is absurd. He's an average left fielder.

[ORS]

Bay makes the plays he's supposed to make.

What defines "supposed to"? If UZR defines it ("supposed to" being average), then he doesn't. If it's some arbitrary definition, like your opinion, I'm not interested in the statement that he does what he's "supposed to" do.

 

Bay's UZR is negatively overweighted by his limited range. His other three UZR components are either plus or neutral. To say he's a bad fielder is absurd. He's an average left fielder.

This demonstrates a strong misunderstanding of how UZR rates players. The +/- Runs of contribution is relative to league average. He's consitently below that mark. Let that sink in....below.....average. How he gets there, whether it be with strong range and awful fielding ability, or with weak range and good hands, is immaterial. Below average is below average.

[jacksonianmarch]

Explain why.

 

If the Mets dont land Holliday then I think Bay is gone. I have said all along that someone will go a 5th yr on Bay. If not Boston, then someone. I do think that Theo will go that extra yr, eventually. But when you throw Minaya into the ring with a fistful of cash and a skull full of air, then anything can happen.