Is Terry Francona the new Bobby Cox?

[Dojji]

Compared to your previous one, yes.

 

Just take the rose-colored glasses off, man.

 

Francona's not bad, but he's not as good as you make him out to be

 

As far as I'm concerned, two rings in his trophy case say you're underestimating the man.

 

that's just my $.02

[Dipre]

As far as I'm concerned, two rings in his trophy case say you're underestimating the man.

 

that's just my $.02

 

He could have 11 trophies and his in-game management would still be suspect.

 

Grady Little would have won with the '04 team.

[Emmz]

Woah, hold up there Emmz. I have heard your strong critiques of Francona but I haven't seen many very good reasons.

 

A joke of a manager?

 

He was hired specifically by this front office for this job. He has been resigned. You can say what you will about Theo and the FO, but they wouldn't tolerate mediocrity for very long if they didn't have to. Furthermore, things that a manager does which are 'intangable' are things like managing egos, getting players rest, pep talks, etc., we all agree that Francona does very well with these things.

 

The things that are tangible are EXACTLY the things you are talking about. In-game management is something that actually CAN be measured and I have faith that this front office (with all of the brain power they have amassed) actually cares about how the game is managed.

 

Francona plays the percentages just the way he should. He understands the concept of "leverage" and plays his cards accordingly and it has worked out very well.

 

I don't understand how anyone could say that he's a "joke" of a manager. He may have made a mistake with Pedro in the 04 playoffs, but watch a full season of baseball with any manager and you will see mistakes. The results really cannot be questioned, and neither can the sharp focus of the FO in terms of making decisions about personnel.

 

Pedro in 04 was one of the most ridiculous things a manager could possibly make. The only way to do something so stupid is to deliberately try to lose. Not saying he was, he wasn't, but honestly? How can you do something like that? He does this all the time, but it just stands out more in the playoffs. If he was in the NL, he'd have a hard time defending his decisions, because it's even more crucial in that league. I think I was a little over-the-top when I said "joke" manager. But I think he is IMMENSELY overrated

[Dojji]

Pedro in 04 was one of the most ridiculous things a manager could possibly make. The only way to do something so stupid is to deliberately try to lose. Not saying he was' date=' he wasn't, but honestly? How can you do something like that?[/quote']

 

Pedro when in '04? Pedro what in '04? Pedro where in '04? Pedro who in '04?

 

Assuming you mean ALCS game 7 when Pedro came in and pitched a couple relief innings and got lit up a bit:

 

1: They won that game

 

2: Pedro would have been on about 6 days rest by the time his next start rolled around if they hadn't done it that way. You want to get him some live work, but you don't want him starting because he's not well enough rested. It's a blowout, so let him throw his side session in the game and save the badly exhausted bullpen as much as possible..

 

Not really rocket science here. Didn't cost us a thing and maybe kept our bullpen fresher for the back and forth game that was Game 1 of the World Series.

[Dipre]

Pedro when in '04? Pedro what in '04? Pedro where in '04? Pedro who in '04?

 

Assuming you mean ALCS game 7 when Pedro came in and pitched a couple relief innings and got lit up a bit:

 

1: They won that game

 

2: Pedro would have been on about 6 days rest by the time his next start rolled around if they hadn't done it that way. You want to get him some live work, but you don't want him starting because he's not well enough rested. It's a blowout, so let him throw his side session in the game and save the badly exhausted bullpen as much as possible..

 

Not really rocket science here.

 

Your explanation is laughable.

[Dojji]

Your explanation is a fairly common occurrance at the end of long playoff series.

 

Fixed.

 

I mean we even used guys like Lester and Byrd the same way over the course of the last couple playoffs. We were already doing the same thing with Derek Lowe and Bronson Arroyo anyway. and our bullpen had been absolutely destroyed by two straight extra innings games in Game 4 and Game 5.

 

It's not exactly rocket science.

[Cocos Disciples]

Wow I completely forgot about bringing in Pedro.

[Cocos Disciples]

Fixed.

 

When else has a team brought in their #2 starter on 1 day rest in a blowout playoff game?

[Dipre]

Fixed.

 

I mean we even used guys like Lester and Byrd the same way over the course of the last couple playoffs. It's not exactly rocket science.

 

Again, the explanation is laughable.

 

Your editing of my post is laughable.

 

And your rose-colored glasses are laughable.

 

Stop it.

[Dojji]

When else has a team brought in their #2 starter on 1 day rest in a blowout playoff game?

 

Their #2 starter? Not all that often. BUT The Florida Marlins brought in Josh Beckett for a dramatic relief win in the World Series against the Yankees the year prior to Pedro's relief appearance.

 

Pedro was on more than one day's rest. He'd pitched Game 5, making that (hazy memory here) 2 or 3 days. It was probably a side day for him anyway.

 

And again I reiterate: the pen was a shambles after Games 4 and 5 -- we'd already seen Arroyo do the same thing in a much closer game in Game 6 (remember, he was the pitcher for The Slap), and Arroyo isn't a guy you count on to pitch high leverage innings given a choice.

[Dipre]

Their #2 starter? Not all that often. BUT The Florida Marlins brought in Josh Beckett for a dramatic relief win in the World Series against the Yankees the year prior to Pedro's relief appearance.

 

Pedro was on more than one day's rest. He'd pitched Game 5, making that (hazy memory here) 2 or 3 days. It was probably a side day for him anyway.

 

And again I reiterate: the pen was a shambles after Games 4 and 5 -- we'd already seen Arroyo do the same thing in a much closer game in Game 6 (remember, he was the pitcher for The Slap), and Arroyo isn't a guy you count on to pitch high leverage innings given a choice.

 

Wow.

 

You're really grasping at straws here.

[Cocos Disciples]

Their #2 starter? Not all that often. BUT The Florida Marlins brought in Josh Beckett for a dramatic relief win in the World Series against the Yankees the year prior to Pedro's relief appearance.

 

Pedro was on more than one day's rest. He'd pitched Game 5, making that (hazy memory here) 2 or 3 days. It was probably a side day for him anyway. And again I reiterate -- the pen was a shambles after Games 4 and 5 -- we'd already seen Arroyo do the same thing in a much closer game in Game 6, and Arroyo isn't a guy you count on to pitch high leverage innings given a choice.

 

No, it was 1 day rest. Game 3 was rained out and was pushed to the off day that normally would have separated Games 5 and 6. I had tickets to Game 3, and subsequently to Game 5 (just a side note).

 

Beckett started on 3 days rest, not similar.

[Dojji]

No, it was 1 day rest. Game 3 was rained out and was pushed to the off day that normally would have separated Games 5 and 6. I had tickets to Game 3, and subsequently to Game 5 (just a side note).

 

Beckett started on 3 days rest, not similar.

 

what are you talking about?

 

Even if there were no offdays, tn between Pedro's last start (game 5) and his relief appearance in Game 7, there was this thing called Game 6. It was a pretty good game. I remember it well. Pedro did not pitch in that game.

 

I am especially sure about this. I was pacing the room listening to Game 6 on my radio. I was watching Game 7 on TV.

 

He was on at least 2 days rest.

[Dojji]

A little linkage for memory joggging purpose.

 

Martinez started Game 5. His relief appearance came in game 7

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/postseason/2004_ALCS.shtml

 

Also, they were ahead 10-1 when Pedro came into the game and they swept the Cardinals, so what exactly did they lose by bringing him in?

[Dipre]

what are you talking about?

 

Even if there were no offdays, tn between Pedro's last start (game 5) and his relief appearance in Game 7, there was this thing called Game 6. It was a pretty good game. I remember it well. Pedro did not pitch in that game.

 

I am especially sure about this. I was pacing the room listening to Game 6 on my radio. I was watching Game 7 on TV.

 

He was on at least 2 days rest.

 

Martinez started the 5th game on October 18th, and came on relief for game 7 on October 20th. That constitutes one day's rest.

[Dojji]

OK yeah, my mistake. It was one day's rest. It was still an inning of relief the bullpen didn't need to pitch. Foulke had enough on his plate as it was.

 

to be honest, the move baffled me at the time too, but to really draw my ire, a move has to be stupid and also not work. we won it, and we won every game after it, so even if it was an odd decision, it didn't cost us anything, making it little more than a curio.

 

Pedro in the game 7 of the 2007 ALCS was washed away by winning that series at all, and especially by winning those next 4 games..

[example1]

Pedro in 04 was one of the most ridiculous things a manager could possibly make. The only way to do something so stupid is to deliberately try to lose. Not saying he was' date=' he wasn't, but honestly? How can you do something like that? [b']He does this all the time, but it just stands out more in the playoffs.[/b] If he was in the NL, he'd have a hard time defending his decisions, because it's even more crucial in that league. I think I was a little over-the-top when I said "joke" manager. But I think he is IMMENSELY overrated

 

Elaborate please. When else has he done something like this? I see this as a poor decision that ultimately didn't kill the team. I haven't seen him do it since.

 

That said, if he chooses to bring in Jon Lester or Josh Beckett late in a game against the Yankees in game 7 of the ALCS this year instead of, say, Manny Delcarman are you going to rake him over the coals? Pedro is a hall of fame pitcher. He didn't bring in John Burkett as the stopper. It was Pedro Martinez.

 

I'm getting too into your argument though. This is the one example that you bring up which we all agree with anyway, but it was 5 years ago and the WON the game. Please highlight other examples that back up your point.

 

I simply don't see him making stupid decision after stupid decision, certainly no more than could be found from other managers in similar situations. I have yet to see anything that backs up him being overrated, other than claims that other managers win everywhere they go and he didn't. Of course, those other managers actually DON'T win everywhere they go, we just like to have selective memories and pretend that they do.

 

Ron Gardenhire? Really?

[yankees228]

The same Ron Gardenhire who blames God Bless America for his team a playoff game.

 

As for the Pedro thing, that was probably a mistake, but it doesn't constitute him being a bad manager. The thing is, I get on Joe Girardi all the time, but if he manages with a heightened sense of urgency in the playoffs, then I'll be OK with him. I think Francona has done a pretty good job in the playoffs.

 

Lets give him some credit for things he's done also such as his unorthodox use of Keith Foulke in the 2004 ALCS and his decision to start Derek Lowe over Bronson Arroyo in Game 7.

[example1]

The same Ron Gardenhire who blames God Bless America for his team a playoff game.

 

As for the Pedro thing, that was probably a mistake, but it doesn't constitute him being a bad manager. The thing is, I get on Joe Girardi all the time, but if he manages with a heightened sense of urgency in the playoffs, then I'll be OK with him. I think Francona has done a pretty good job in the playoffs.

You are overrating him. He's 28-14 with 4 series sweeps and 2 World Series. That's pretty mediocre. And it was just a crapshoot. He had no control over how to use the bullpen in 04's games 4 and 5 (many extra innings) when the game was on the line against such a great offense. He was lucky. And his team was so good it basically managed itself.

[yankees228]

Hahaha, I enjoyed the slight jab there example. But yeah, we're pretty much in agreement.

[yankees228]

Again though, I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who really only knows how Francona manages in the playoffs, and not in the regular season.

[Dojji]

Yes well, we have made the playoffs 4 of the 5 years he's been here. Going on 5 of 6. And in a couple of those years (2005 springs to mind) he didn't exactly have the most stunningly talented rosters in the history of baseball. Since the only thing you can really judge a manager on is results I'd say he does OK in the regular season.

 

The OP did have one point worth listening to as well. Yes, we had talented rosters for each of Tito's years here, including 2006. We ALSO had talented rosters in 2001 and 2002 and failed to make the playoffs, We had probably the best team in baseball in 2003, and Grady Little managed us out of a World Series apeparance.

 

My point is simple. You can point to a handful of specific counterexamples, but Terry Francona just plain doesn't manage us out of games very often, and he does a fair job of not setting players up to fail.

[Cocos Disciples]

what are you talking about?

 

Even if there were no offdays, tn between Pedro's last start (game 5) and his relief appearance in Game 7, there was this thing called Game 6. It was a pretty good game. I remember it well. Pedro did not pitch in that game.

 

I am especially sure about this. I was pacing the room listening to Game 6 on my radio. I was watching Game 7 on TV.

 

He was on at least 2 days rest.

 

Martinez started the 5th game on October 18th' date=' and came on relief for game 7 on October 20th. That constitutes one day's rest.[/quote']

 

Yeah.

[Dojji]

Yeah.

 

yep, and I admitted my goof at the top of this page. My bad on that one. Math isn't my strong suit but I should be able to figure out the difference between one and two.

[yankees228]

Their #2 starter? Not all that often. BUT The Florida Marlins brought in Josh Beckett for a dramatic relief win in the World Series against the Yankees the year prior to Pedro's relief appearance.

 

Pedro was on more than one day's rest. He'd pitched Game 5, making that (hazy memory here) 2 or 3 days. It was probably a side day for him anyway.

 

And again I reiterate: the pen was a shambles after Games 4 and 5 -- we'd already seen Arroyo do the same thing in a much closer game in Game 6 (remember, he was the pitcher for The Slap), and Arroyo isn't a guy you count on to pitch high leverage innings given a choice.

 

I don't think the Beckett thing is a really good comparison. First off, just to clarify, it was not in the World Series. It was game seven of the NLCS. But more importantly, it was only a one run in the 5th inning. That's a little bit different then a seven run game in the 7th inning.

[TheKilo]

Ron Gardenhire, most overrated manager in the sport behind LaRussa.

 

Scoscia I'll give you. Although I think he's a dick.

[TheKilo]

Just about every part of this post is laughable except for the part where you ask if i want a cookie.

 

Otherwise, the post is a waste of bandwidth.Well done.

 

That's a shame, because he's 100% right.

[TheKilo]

He could have 11 trophies and his in-game management would still be suspect.

 

Grady Little would have won with the '04 team.

 

LOL

 

Not. Even. f***ing. Close.

[Dipre]

That's a shame' date=' because he's 100% right.[/quote']

 

Then you're a hypocrite.

 

Because i can quote you saying Francona gets some in-game decisions which are given for most managers wrong, even though he manages his best in the playoffs.

 

You can argue that every manager makes mistakes, and making mistakes is normal since they are human beings after all, but Francona shits the bed a lot, and you, sir, have been on the brink of making me call the "Waaaaaaaaaambulance" many a times during GTs with some of his decisions, specially sitting Drew against lefties like he needs a platoon.

[TheKilo]

Then you're a hypocrite.

 

Because i can quote you saying Francona gets some in-game decisions which are given for most managers wrong, even though he manages his best in the playoffs.

 

Find that quote. I'd like to see it.

 

You can argue that every manager makes mistakes, and making mistakes is normal since they are human beings after all, but Francona shits the bed a lot, and you, sir, have been on the brink of making me call the "Waaaaaaaaaambulance" many a times during GTs with some of his decisions, specially sitting Drew against lefties like he needs a platoon.

 

Now who's antagonizing who, Dipre?

 

Francona shits the bed sometimes. Not a lot. Sometimes. I agree with Dojji that his mistakes don't occur any more often than any other manager in the game.

 

We notice them more because we pay more attention to his in-game moves. No other reason.