Alex Gonzalez= Great Deal

[Dipre]

but I will say that if you look over a full career most players (there are few exceptions) OBP/AVG/OPS w/ RISP is close to their career averages' date=' proving how impossible it is to quantify "clutch"[/quote']

 

The "clutch" hitters are always the good hitters.

 

It's not surprising Yuniesky Betancourt is not "clutch".

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

but I will say that if you look over a full career most players (there are few exceptions) OBP/AVG/OPS w/ RISP is close to their career averages' date=' proving how impossible it is to quantify "clutch"[/quote']

Well duh, you can't quantify what doesn't exist.

[The_Destroyah]

The "clutch" hitters are always the good hitters.

 

It's not surprising Yuniesky Betancourt is not "clutch".

 

Precisely, I wont say that there arent certain players that are more "clutch" ( a word I hate using) than others of similar stats, but they are few and far between and those players tend to still be great players (Manny Ramirez 2004-2007) but its not anything that one can quantify.

[The_Destroyah]

lol whats funny is that it seems that nick green sucks 99% of the time but manages to come up with timely hits more often than he gets hits in situations where its unimportant, does that make him clutch?

[Dipre]

lol whats funny is that it seems that nick green sucks 99% of the time but manages to come up with timely hits more often than he gets hits in situations where its important' date=' does that make him clutch?[/quote']

 

It makes him lucky.

[The_Destroyah]

It makes him lucky.

 

I know, I was joking...

[PWNdroia]

What is it with people and their batting average arguments?

 

I have more than BA statistics. It's my own eyes watching Gonzo hit like he has been- doubles, homeruns, singles. Seen them all. It could just be a coincidence that my sight and BA coincide.

[The_Destroyah]

I have more than BA statistics. It's my own eyes watching Gonzo hit like he has been- doubles' date=' homeruns, singles. Seen them all. It could just be a coincidence that my sight and BA coincide.[/quote']

 

probably is.

[jacksonianmarch]

I am not saying you arent getting Hardy. I actually think the sox will land him. But it wont be Doubrount and a bunch of s***. It is gonna cost more than most think, unless the sox eat a contract in the trade

[Emmz]

I have more than BA statistics. It's my own eyes watching Gonzo hit like he has been- doubles' date=' homeruns, singles. Seen them all. It could just be a coincidence that my sight and BA coincide.[/quote']

 

So you've seen a few doubles and a few home runs. So what? Your eyes lie, he's not that good, and Hardy is better than he is offensively and defensively. You need to look at statistics before you go ahead and make your case for something that far away from the truth. Especially when it's a guy like Gonzo, who has very minimal offensive ability.

[Dipre]

I am not saying you arent getting Hardy. I actually think the sox will land him. But it wont be Doubrount and a bunch of s***. It is gonna cost more than most think' date=' unless the sox eat a contract in the trade[/quote']

 

Lol your save-face attempt is unsuccessful.

[PWNdroia]

So you've seen a few doubles and a few home runs. So what? Your eyes lie' date=' he's not that good, and Hardy is better than he is offensively and defensively. You need to look at statistics before you go ahead and make your case for something that far away from the truth. Especially when it's a guy like Gonzo, who has very minimal offensive ability.[/quote']

 

Hardy is better, you're right. But if we can't get him, why not keep Gonzo? All I've said is he's not been half bad for us and has done more than expected. It's not like I'm saying he's the best SS out there.

[Spudboy]

Hardy is better' date=' you're right. But if we can't get him, why not keep Gonzo? All I've said is he's not been half bad for us and has done more than expected. It's not like I'm saying he's the best SS out there.[/quote']

 

I don't necessarily agree that Hardy is "better" (he has , from appearances, more pop). And is 26.

 

But I do think Gonzo is a viable alternative for starting SS IF the Sox are not able to SUBSTANTIALLY upgrade the position in the off season.

 

Carry on.

[Cocos Disciples]

^ I definitely think Hardy is a better option than Gonzalez going forward.

[Dojji]

Reminder: leaving aside all questions of offense, JJ hardy is better on defense than Alex Gonzalez.

[Spudboy]

Reminder: leaving aside all questions of offense' date=' [i']JJ hardy is better on defense than Alex Gonzalez.[/i]

 

Please elaborate.

[Dojji]

It's already covered upthread. JJ hardy's UZR/150 is consistently higher than Alez Gonzalez's.

 

Hardy is a better shortstop than Gonzo both this year and over their careers.

[Spudboy]

It's already covered upthread. JJ hardy's UZR/150 is consistently higher than Alez Gonzalez's.

 

Hardy is a better shortstop than Gonzo both this year and over their careers.

 

Sorry.

 

I don't subscribe to UZR, UZR/150.

 

Defensive metrics are flawed, at the very least.

 

How many games have you seen Hardy play?

[Dojji]

if defensive metrics are flawd, the human eye surely is as well.

[Spudboy]

if defensive metrics are flawd' date=' human opinion surely is as well.[/quote']

 

"Brilliant"!

 

You, and others on the thread, regard Sabermetrics as gospel. And view subjective assessments as invalid.

 

Thanks for the enlightening discussion.

 

Oh, flawed.

[Dojji]

What exactly are you trying to establish?

 

You're surely not attempting to infer that Alex is the best defensive SS in the league. that would be ridiculous on the face of it.

 

If he's not the best in the league, then SOME shortstops in this league are better defensively than Gonzalez.

 

I have presented evidence that Hardy is one of those shortstops. If you want to dispute that, the onus is on you to provide a basis for your own argument. Even if I did your homework for you, the information I have available to me supports me.

 

If you don't like the way I presented that evidence, you're free to find some evidence of your own and present it in your own way. But you don't gain much credibility by simply ridiculing my evidence without providing any of your own.

[Dipre]

"Brilliant"!

 

You, and others on the thread, regard Sabermetrics as gospel. And view subjective assessments as invalid.

 

Thanks for the enlightening discussion.

 

Oh, flawed.

 

Wow pwn3d.

[example1]

Hardy could be a really good addition to the team because he offers both a nice glove and the chance to hit a HR. That said, I just don't like the idea for some reason. I don't like his injury history, I don't like his low-OBP and I'm not sold on him being a great fielder. The numbers definitely say that he is, and even some digging on my own shows that he really is a pretty good fielder. He's been in the top 5 in UZR/150 over the past few years, which shows some real consistency. It doesn't appear to be a fluke and I believe it is considerably more comprehensive than my eyes could tell me.

 

It would definitely matter what the Sox would have to do to get him. I'm still rooting for a deal to bring a great player to Boston as a SS, or for Jed Lowrie to step up and be better than he has been. If neither of these things seems possible then Hardy would be as good defensively as Gonzalez and there's no way he'd be worse on offense, even if he slumps horribly.

[Spudboy]

What exactly are you trying to establish?

 

You're surely not attempting to infer that Alex is the best defensive SS in the league. that would be ridiculous on the face of it.

 

If he's not the best in the league, then SOME shortstops in this league are better defensively than Gonzalez.

 

I have presented evidence that Hardy is one of those shortstops. If you want to dispute that, the onus is on you to provide a basis for your own argument. Even if I did your homework for you, the information I have available to me supports me.

 

If you don't like the way I presented that evidence, you're free to find some evidence of your own and present it in your own way. But you don't gain much credibility by simply ridiculing my evidence without providing any of your own.

 

Establish?

 

I have simply stated that Gonzo is a VIABLE alternative (or option to those with a limited vocabulary) if the Sox do not effect a move that brings a SUBSTANTIAL upgrade to the SS position.

 

I have seen Hardy play only 2-3 times on TV and asked you to back -up your assertions with whatever is at your disposal. You have chosen not to. And I am not inclined to read through 300+ posts to see what you have said.

 

If hardy is the future of Sox SS, please tell me why tons of fun.

 

Again, How many times have you actually seen Hardy play?

[Dojji]

And I am not inclined to read through 300+ posts to see what you have said.

 

Your problem, not mine.

[Dipre]

Establish?

 

I have simply stated that Gonzo is a VIABLE alternative (or option to those with a limited vocabulary) if the Sox do not effect a move that brings a SUBSTANTIAL upgrade to the SS position.

 

I have seen Hardy play only 2-3 times on TV and asked you to back -up your assertions with whatever is at your disposal. You have chosen not to. And I am not inclined to read through 300+ posts to see what you have said.

 

If hardy is the future of Sox SS, please tell me why tons of fun.

 

Again, How many times have you actually seen Hardy play?

 

Wow Spud's bringin' the awesome!

[Spudboy]

Hardy could be a really good addition to the team because he offers both a nice glove and the chance to hit a HR. That said, I just don't like the idea for some reason. I don't like his injury history, I don't like his low-OBP and I'm not sold on him being a great fielder. The numbers definitely say that he is, and even some digging on my own shows that he really is a pretty good fielder. He's been in the top 5 in UZR/150 over the past few years, which shows some real consistency. It doesn't appear to be a fluke and I believe it is considerably more comprehensive than my eyes could tell me.

 

It would definitely matter what the Sox would have to do to get him. I'm still rooting for a deal to bring a great player to Boston as a SS, or for Jed Lowrie to step up and be better than he has been. If neither of these things seems possible then Hardy would be as good defensively as Gonzalez and there's no way he'd be worse on offense, even if he slumps horribly.

 

Is this so hard to understand?

 

Thank you Example1.

[Spudboy]

Your problem' date=' not mine.[/quote']

 

OK Brat.

[The_Destroyah]

I think we need to get together and have a Dojji vs. Spudboy boxing match.

place your bets here.

[Dipre]

I think we need to get together and have a Dojji vs. Spudboy boxing match.

place your bets here.

 

$50 bucks on Spud KO third round.