Wang or Dice-K?

[Gom]

Considering that both pitchers were heavily counted on this season, and both have them have been abysmal failures, which one would you rather have going forward and why?

 

I expect the camps to be split pretty much along the lines of our fandom, but let's see which side can make the better argument as to which pitcher will have a better bounceback next season, and who will have a more effective career.

[Dipre]

Dice-K's pitching again this year FYI.

[BoSox21]

I'd say Dice-K since he didn't have any real injury

[Gom]

Dice-K's pitching again this year FYI.

 

I doubt it. Either way...this season has been lost for both pitchers. Now, if you care to be involved, answer the question.

[Dipre]

I doubt it. Either way...this season has been lost for both pitchers. Now' date=' if you care to be involved, answer the question.[/quote']

 

I answered.

 

I said Dice-K because he'll actually pitch.

[Dojji]

I'll take Daisuke, mostly because I understand how he was effective before he broke down.

[Christian Snyder]

Dice-k because he is actually a good pitcher when he is healthy and Wang has a career ERA of 4.16.

[Gom]

I would have to say Wang. He's been a highly successful pitcher, and what worries me about Dice-K is that he is a five inning pitcher with a high whip for his career. I think Dice-K may be the safer bet, but I think Wang has a much higher upside.

[Dojji]

Wang was overhyped when he was "good." His peripherals suggested regression even before he got hurt.

[Dipre]

If you're a true man, you never take Wang.

[Spudboy]

If you're a true man' date=' you never take Wang.[/quote']

 

:lol::lol:

[Dojji]

dipre wins

[Rdsxmbnt]

I think Dice-K may be the safer bet' date=' but I think Wang has a much higher upside.[/quote']

 

I actually think it's the other way around. Wang has been a very consistent bet for a 3.70-4.10 ERA when he's healthy which is very solid for the AL East. But Dice-K is also coming off a year in which he went 18-3 with an ERA of about 2.90, a level Wang has yet to reach. So I think overall Wang is a better bet to consistently perform at a certain level mentioned above each year while Dice-K may be off/average or put up ace-like numbers.

[RWTP24]

I doubt it. Either way...this season has been lost for both pitchers. Now' date=' if you care to be involved, answer the question.[/quote']

 

He is going to pitch soon and Dice-k will be just fine.

[CrespoBlows]

Toss-up, but Wang hasn't pitched effectively in 15 months.

[Christian Snyder]

Shouldn't this thread have a POLL?

[Gom]

What I don't like about Dice-K is that he is a bullpen killer. His effective ERA is at least 1 run higher than what he posts due to the strain he puts on the pen. Even when he had his best season, he still was murder on the pen.

[Gom]

Shouldn't this thread have a POLL?

 

No. It will be overwhelmingly Dice-K since this is a Red Sox site. I'm looking for the best reasoning.

[CrespoBlows]

What I don't like about Dice-K is that he is a bullpen killer. His effective ERA is at least 1 run higher than what he posts due to the strain he puts on the pen. Even when he had his best season' date=' he still was murder on the pen.[/quote']

 

You have the uncanny ability to make up numbers in order to further your point. Would you have any idea where to start, in order to prove that statement?

[Keeper]

They're different pitchers. Wang pitches to contact with his sinker. He hardly ever gives up the long ball. That could change in the new stadium.

 

Dice-K misses a lot more bats than Wang, but Wang has better control. Dice-K doesn't give up as many hits as Wang. Dice-K's 6.9 hits per 9 innings last year was best in the AL. He also issued 94 free passes in just 167 innings. Not good.

 

Gom is correct about Dice-K not going deep into games; Nearly half of his starts last year (14 of 29) were under 6 innings. That also means he doesn't give you as many quality starts as Wang. Wang had 18 quality starts in '06 and 20 in '07. Dice-K had 18 quality starts in '07 and 14 last year.

 

Wang's durability has taken a pretty big hit in the last 2 seasons. Dice-K's durability took a hit this season.

 

Dice-K has the ability to dominate hitters. Wang does not.

 

Wang is a solid middle of the rotation pitcher. Not an ace. Dice-K has the stuff to be an ace, but he needs to go deeper into games to be considered one.

 

It's a cop out answer, but I'd say it's a tossup.

[Gom]

You have the uncanny ability to make up numbers in order to further your point. Would you have any idea where to start' date=' in order to prove that statement?[/quote']

 

I'm throwing out this season since for both pitchers, it has been injury-plagued.

 

Dice-K:

 

2007: 32 games, 204.2 IP=6.3 IP per start

2008 : 29 games, 167.2 IP=5.7 IP per start

 

Wang:

 

2005: 17 games, 111.2 IP =6.78 IP per start

2006: 33 games, 213.1 IP=6.46 IP per start

2007: 30 games, 199.1 IP=6.64 IP per start

2008: 15 games, 95 IP=6.33 IP per start.

 

Crespo, unlike you and some of the other idiots on the board, I don't make the numbers up. However, if the numbers don't show what you want them to, then that's your issue to deal with. That tends to be a prevailing trend here. To quote numbers, and then to ignore them when they don't fit your model.

 

What this shows is that Wang is more consistent and regularly gets into the seventh inning. Matsuzaka does not.

 

Here are more stats to back up what I say.

 

Dice K:

2007 Pitches/Game: 108.7

2008 Pitches/Game: 100.1

 

Wang:

2005 Pitches/Game: 89.6

2006 Pitches/Game: 92.1

2007 Pitches/Game: 95.3

2008 Pitches/Game: 94.0

 

It seems, when you combine the two numbers, that not only does Dice-K throw less innings, but more pitches. Wang seems to be coming out before the arbitrary 100 pitch count in the seventh inning. Dice-K comes out in the previous inning having exhausted more pitches.

 

Dice-K also has a significantly higher WHIP than Wang does, and Wang is more of a groundball pitcher.

[Cocos Disciples]

1.32 is not significantly higher than 1.29.

[Gom]

1.32 is not significantly higher than 1.29.

 

What are you talking about?

[Cocos Disciples]

Dice-K also has a significantly higher WHIP than Wang does, and Wang is more of a groundball pitcher.

 

1.32 and 1.29 are their WHIPs if you take out 2009.

[Gom]

1.32 and 1.29 are their WHIPs if you take out 2009.

 

Irrespective, the point still stands.

[RWTP24]

There is not much of a difference between the two.

[Gom]

There is not much of a difference between the two.

 

Which is part of the reason I made the thread.

 

Who do you think, going forward, will be the better pitcher?

[jsc1973]

No. It will be overwhelmingly Dice-K since this is a Red Sox site. I'm looking for the best reasoning.

 

Dice-K, and not just because I am a Red Sox fan.

 

I'd pick him because he has a much better chance to be good going forward. Wang, even when he was good, was winning games with an abysmal strikeout rate. Historically, a starting pitcher like that will only be effective for a few seasons. There hasn't been an exception since Lew Burdette, and that was 50 years ago. Even guys like Tommy John struck out more than Wang.

 

If Wang ever comes back, it will be because he either: 1) learns a strikeout pitch that he can throw without it being hammered; or 2) becomes a reliever, where he only has to fool a hitter once.

[RWTP24]

IMO he just looks like a better pitcher. I think they are both good and maybe i'm a little bias because i'm a sox fan, but i think in the long run Dice-K will turn out to be the better pitcher. I think everyone freaks out because of how many pitches he throws, but he has been doing it a long time. With that being said, i think the MLB taems need to stop changing the Jap pitchers so much. i really think it throws them off.

[example1]

I will be pleasantly shocked if Wang does not eventually return to form. Two years ago I figured he would be one of the best pitchers in baseball. His sinker is nasty and at times he is overpowering. He's young and he has a great frame.

 

Dice-K is smaller, doesn't throw a sinker and seems afraid of the strikezone.

 

When they're each "on" I think Matsuzaka is the better pitcher but when they're mediocre or in the middle of a long season I see no reason that Wang's sinker can't keep the ball in the park and runners off the bases.