Official Red Sox offseason thread

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Yeah!!! Drew :thumbdown

I hear ya. If I can run 4 miles in 25 minutes in 100 degree weather with 90% humidity while holding back a vicious wave of diarrhea, why can't Drew man up and play through that meaningless f***ing groin pull? Pussbag he is.

[lesterkett]

I hear ya. If I can run 4 miles in 25 minutes in 100 degree weather with 90% humidity while holding back a vicious wave of diarrhea' date=' why can't Drew man up and play through that meaningless f***ing groin pull? Pussbag he is.[/quote']

 

curt schilling = Blood sock

Pedro martinez 1999 vs cleveland

[a700hitter]

From today's NY Post.

 

CENTS-LESS SOX SPENT $ ON CLUNKERS

 

Brad Penny, following in the footsteps of another failed veteran pitcher, John Smoltz, was ravaged last night in the Yankees' 20-11 annihilation of the Red Sox at Fenway Park that put the Bombers 7? games up in the AL East.

 

Penny allowed eight runs and 10 hits over four innings as the Yankees pummeled the right-hander, scoring six runs over the first two innings. Remember in spring training when all the praise was being heaped on the Red Sox for landing Penny and Smoltz and how deep the Red Sox pitching was going to be this season? Maybe the Red Sox should have just gone the Yankees route and signed A.J. Burnett and CC Sabathia.

 

Penny's record dropped to 7-8 and his ERA is 5.61. Opposing hitters are batting over .300 against him. He did not fool anyone last night. He could be out of the rotation with Tim Wakefield close to returning.

 

"I think we're always probably evaluating," Red Sox manager Terry Francona said. "Wakey pitched tonight [for Pawtucket], and it sounded like it went pretty well. We'll get together tomorrow and kind of see where we need to go."

 

Sounds like a lost Penny.

 

"I really wasn't commanding the ball tonight," Penny said. "I tried to go in and I'd end up throwing it over the plate."

 

The Red Sox tried to take the cheaper rout, signing Penny and Smoltz, figuring the veterans would bounce back. The Red Sox gave Penny a one-year deal worth $5 million, plus incentives. Smoltz was given a $5.5 million deal and finished 2-5 with the Red Sox with a bulging 8.32 ERA. Smoltz was released and is now with the Cardinals.

 

The temperature was 83 degrees when Penny faced his first batter and allowed a ground rule double to Derek Jeter, the first of 23 Yankees hits. This was a night where Penny needed to step it up. This was a night when the Red Sox thought they could get back in the AL East race.

 

Penny never gave them a chance.

 

He wilted in the heat. Bottom line: The Red Sox should have traded Penny when they had the chance.

 

"The Yankees have a great team," Penny said. "One through nine they all can do damage."

 

Noted Francona, "They took some pretty healthy swings once they got going."

 

This was one of the worst outings by a Red Sox starter in the last 55 years against the Yankees. Over that time just two other pitchers have allowed at least eight runs and 10 hits over four innings, Tom Bolton and Bill [spaceman] Lee.

 

Now the Red Sox are running out of space in the rotation for Penny.

 

kevin.kernan@nypost.com

[example1]

Not much to disagree with there, other than the fact that the Sox got cheap with their pitching. I don't think they did. I think getting cheap with their team would have been just giving the spot to Buchholz or Bowden and not trying to add expensive FA depth.

 

The got cheap in their discussions around Teixeira, but I don't know which pitchers were available for hire last year... they weren't going to pay for CC and Burnett signed a huge deal that they wouldn't have gone after either (because he isn't worth it to them).

 

Otherwise, Penny absolutely sucked.

[Dipre]

Because, again, the NY Post just KNEW Dice-K and Wakefield would be injured at the same time for months during the season.

 

It's a stupid article.

 

Penny and Smoltz were supposed to add depth, they were never intended to pitch together in the rotation.

[TheKilo]

I don't buy that, not when Wakefield's been hurt in the 2nd half the last few seasons.

[Dipre]

I don't buy that' date=' not when Wakefield's been hurt in the 2nd half the last few seasons.[/quote']

 

That's what the depth was for, Einstein.

 

1/5 is one thing, 2/5 is a whole different story.

[BSN07]

Was just reading an article about Vlad. Got me thinking. If Bay and Holliday wind up signing elsewhere, would Vlad be an option for LF/DH for the Sox until one of the young OF is possibly ready?

 

He's hitting at a .298/.338/.467 clip this season. Not sure what his health situation is currently. I know his legs are fading, kind of like Andre Dawson. And I'm not sure if he's planning on any procedure this off season either. He's only 33. So I would think he still has a few good years left in him. This is the first season he's missed significant time since 2003. Dude does swing at a lot of pitches though. He loves those 1 foot outside in the dirt type pitches

[BSN07]

ESPN's Buster Olney speculates that Prince Fielder will be traded to the Red Sox this winter.

 

It's on Insider, so no details

 

Thoughts?

 

I like the idea of fielder at 1B/DH for the future.

[Dojji]

We match up well with Milwaukee. I suspect though that they will be very relutant to surrender Fielder unless his personality is making running the club difficult.

[BSN07]

We match up well with Milwaukee. I suspect though that they will be very relutant to surrender Fielder unless his personality is making running the club difficult.

 

Fielder is due to make some real $ soon. And the Brewers aren't typically a team that dumps a large % of it's resources into one player.

 

If they go for Fielder they should also try and bring back Hardy as well. 2 birds, one stone deal. Although I can get on board for just fielder.

[Dojji]

I'm not sure how you'd get both without giving up Buchholz. And I've become a Buchholz believer over his last few starts.

[BSN07]

I'm not sure how you'd get both without giving up Buchholz. And I've become a Buchholz believer over his last few starts.

 

Took you long enough lol

 

I'm not sure I feel great about Buchholz leaving for anyone at this point. He seems to have finally turned a corner.

[Dojji]

How about revisiting an old trade proposal?

 

I could go for bringing in Todd Helton to play first for us. His power isn't quite what it was but he has some of the best hitting discipline in his league. Now that the Rockies have some other heroes, they probably wouldn't mind losing his salary either.

 

Besides, having Helton and Youkilis playing the corners is as close as you'll get in this life to mirror twins.

[example1]

How about revisiting an old trade proposal?

 

I could go for bringing in Todd Helton to play first for us. His power isn't quite what it was but he has some of the best hitting discipline in his league. Now that the Rockies have some other heroes, they probably wouldn't mind losing his salary either.

 

Besides, having Helton and Youkilis playing the corners is as close as you'll get in this life to mirror twins.

 

No. That's not going to happen.

[example1]

Took you long enough lol

 

I'm not sure I feel great about Buchholz leaving for anyone at this point. He seems to have finally turned a corner.

 

I'm glad people are finally getting the picture about Buchholz. A pitcher who can more-than hold his own in the ALE, at his age, with Lester already in the rotation. Buchholz is untouchable, even for "he who shall not be named who is not named Valdomort", in my opinion. I don't expect teams to even continue asking for him, honestly.

[SCM33]

I'm glad people are finally getting the picture about Buchholz. A pitcher who can more-than hold his own in the ALE' date=' at his age, with Lester already in the rotation. Buchholz is untouchable, even for "he who shall not be named who is not named Valdomort", in my opinion. I don't expect teams to even continue asking for him, honestly.[/quote']

 

You think teams realistically believe the Sox would deal him at this point?

[example1]

You think teams realistically believe the Sox would deal him at this point?

 

That was my point. Not only will they not deal him now, they won't deal him in the future. He's nearly as valuable as any player they could possibly get back. If SD were to ask for Buchholz +++++ for Gonzalez, or Seattle asking for Buchholz +++++ for "He who shall not be named", it would be absurd for the sox to agree. Teams that wanted him should have acted already as he's been discussed at 3 straight trade deadlines. That ship has sailed, he's a key part of the rotation now. Casey Kelly will be the guy the Sox wave around now

[BSN07]

That was my point. Not only will they not deal him now' date=' they won't deal him in the future. He's nearly as valuable as any player they could possibly get back. If SD were to ask for Buchholz +++++ for Gonzalez, or Seattle asking for Buchholz +++++ for "He who shall not be named", it would be absurd for the sox to agree. Teams that wanted him should have acted already as he's been discussed at 3 straight trade deadlines. That ship has sailed, he's a key part of the rotation now. Casey Kelly will be the guy the Sox wave around now[/quote']

 

This^

 

Kelly's value is growing too. Even though he is only in A ball this season.

 

I could see Kelly as a piece of a package for a upper echelon type player. Kelly + Anderson is a good start prospect wise for Fielder. Although I believe the Brewers are going to want some ML ready talent as well.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

I'm glad people are finally getting the picture about Buchholz. A pitcher who can more-than hold his own in the ALE' date=' at his age, with Lester already in the rotation. Buchholz is untouchable, even for "he who shall not be named who is not named [b']Valdomort[/b]", in my opinion. I don't expect teams to even continue asking for him, honestly.

 

Duh, its Voldemort. Come on, read a Harry Potter book.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

This^

 

Kelly's value is growing too. Even though he is only in A ball this season.

 

I could see Kelly as a piece of a package for a upper echelon type player. Kelly + Anderson is a good start prospect wise for Fielder. Although I believe the Brewers are going to want some ML ready talent as well.

If we can throw enough quality prospects at them regardless of level, I think they'll soften the ML-ready players demand.

[example1]

Duh' date=' its [b']Volde[/b]mort. Come on, read a Harry Potter book.

 

I did, and I waffled on the spelling a few times actually. It looked weird for some reason with multiple O's.

 

Anyway, about the Sox getting Fielder, I think they could get him without having to give up Buchholz and it would be a great fit. Fielder has proven that he's one of the NL's best hitters, he's young, left handed and his OBP has consistently been high enough that he would be a good fit on this team. I don't know much about his character, but this clubhouse is pretty solid and I'm confident he would stay in line.

 

I bet they could do a package for a few guys that most of us don't care much about. Bowden, Anderson, + would probably do it.

[Dojji]

If the "+" included Reddick and Exposito it would.

[example1]

If the "+" included Reddick and Exposito it would.

 

Maybe, but maybe not. I don't see them parting with Exposito if they can help it, though they do have some catching depth in the minors.

 

I think people on this site tend to be too myopic about who other players would want based on soxprospects.com ratings. MIL may see something they like in Kalish, or Lin or any one of the other hundred prospects this club has. For that matter, losing Reddick wouldn't be that big a deal BECAUSE they have Kalish (and Westmoreland) waiting in the wings and no obvious OF spots upcoming assuming Bay or Holliday are part of their plans moving forward.

 

Frankly, I think that Bowden and Anderson is a very good haul for a team that is looking to add depth and start rebuilding. When you look at cost controlled players, a pitcher who is ready to start now who would move to the NL and the WARPS these guys produce, the Sox shouldn't have to pay triple in WARP what Fielder would give them.

[Mr Crunchy]

I dont know too much about Harry Potter other than the fact that I feel like spraying the dudes dressed up like wizards as they wait in line with machine gun fire, i swear i saw a dude dressed up like the broad who played aunt clara from bewitched over at the cleveland circle cinema last summer.

It is good entertainment for at home viewing, sitting thru a 3 hour movie makes me too anxious these days....In any case that Kelly kid is supposed to be the next phenom coming up and y'all were dead on accurate with Bucholz being an untouchable, hes really come on in the 2nd half and is acting like he understands what it takes to stay with the big boy club.

I s*** on Theo a lot, this is my God given right however I applaud the moves he hasnt made as much as I applaud the moves he has made...Alex Gonzales can hit? Billy Wagner aint finished? VMart has been better than expected too....The bad is Smoltz and Penny not being able to pitch in the AL East.

I dont blame him for trying these guys out, there wasnt that much invested in them and its obvious they have something in the tank as theyre both pitching fairly well in the NL with Penny being unhittable all of sudden.

[Dojji]

Well, you lose the argument that "there wasn't much invested" in a guy like Penny when he makes 24 starts for your team. That's quite an investment of playing time. More than Julian Tavarez got in fact.

 

Resources in baseball are measured in more ways than just money.

 

Penny was barely effective when he was topping out at 97. He's a bust as far as we're concerned

[example1]

Well, you lose the argument that "there wasn't much invested" in a guy like Penny when he makes 24 starts for your team. That's quite an investment of playing time. More than Julian Tavarez got in fact.

 

Resources in baseball are measured in more ways than just money.

 

Penny was barely effective when he was topping out at 97. He's a bust as far as we're concerned

 

I think Penny probably provided what anyone could have reasonably hoped for from "5th starter" type pitcher randomly selected to pitch in the 5th spot. He's as viable an option as Paul Byrd.

 

To me the biggest problem was a matter of timing. The Sox were scuffling at just the time when they could have given Smoltz more time to show what he could do. Smoltz's performance in St. Louis has to be dejecting to any Sox fan. His 28K/1BB performance is totally different from what he showed in Boston. Perhaps it is familarity with the NL, or comfort in St. Louis or something else. His stuff didn't look horrible in Boston, but the results were.

 

Overall I think people will ultimately make too much out of the Penny and Smoltz signings. I personally hope that Theo does something like this every year. Try rebuilding projects that provide a 6th and 7th starter to the team for depth. It's better than relying on Bowden or not being able to trade Masterson for V-Mart because he's the team's 4th starter.

 

Perhaps next year it is Brandon Webb who gets the nod, who knows...

[Dojji]

I wonder about Erik Bedard. With his health in the last 2 years he could benefit from taking a 1 year deal with a team that knows how to keep his arm healthy, to rebuild his value for his last big contract in his age 32 season. The question is whether he sees it that way.

 

I'd take him at a 1 year deal for ego-stroking money -- maybe 1 year 8 million with an additional 7 million in IP incentives or something. If he wants that $15M/year multi-year contract he's gotta prove he's healthy anyway and the Sox are one of the best teams in the league at keeping injury-troubled pitchers healthy. And it would give us a big inroad on resigning the guy if he turns out to be worth $15M.

 

The fact that he's proven in the American League East makes it very tempting to go after him as well.

 

The rotation we could assemble if we get the healthy, effective versions of Daisuke and Bedard and a Buchholz that does not backslide in the offseason would be the undisputed best in the league. Even Daisuke would make an exceptional #5.

[example1]

Maybe Bedard for $5m base with the ability to earn $7m in incentives. Not 8 + 7, that's just too high.

 

Bedard would be an okay option too. The point is that you're talking about doing nothing more than what the Sox did with Penny and Smoltz last year, just new faces to do the same thing.

[Dojji]

Except that Bedard is an AL East veteran, unlike Smoltz or Penny, and unlike specifically Penny, he never lost effectiveness, he just couldn't stay on the field.

 

And I think you're going to have to pay Bedard a high base because he did remain effective in the games he actually pitched, and to convince him to walk away from some multi-year offers he'll be getting.

 

Remember, our angle with Bedard would have to be that he could get more money if he pitched with us for a healthy season then went back on the market at age 32. Starting at 8 and allowing him to work up to 15 is required to substitute for the year's salary he'd lose going for those deals.

 

At least that's how I see it.