The Catcher Situation

[SCM33]

I think what he meant, was OB means nothing if you arent hitting, which could be true (usually not) besides the fact that the RedSox are doing fine in the RS category minus the post allstar hiccup.

[Dipre]

I think what he meant' date=' was OB means nothing if you arent hitting, which could be true (usually not) besides the fact that the RedSox are doing fine in the RS category minus the post allstar hiccup.[/quote']

 

Again.

 

Batting average is the most useless stat in the history of ever.

 

If you wanna say the team ain't scoring consistently, please don't use batting average as your support stat.

[TheKilo]

RBIs are worse

[Dipre]

RBIs are worse

 

Not.By.A.Longshot.

[SCM33]

Again.

 

Batting average is the most useless stat in the history of ever.

 

If you wanna say the team ain't scoring consistently, please don't use batting average as your support stat.

 

Where did I use the stat batting average? I know all about batting average and Rey Sanchez's historic .286 batting average in 2002 with zero run production. I said hitting as a generalization. I never said batting average.

[Dipre]

Where did I use the stat batting average? I know all about batting average and Rey Sanchez's historic .286 batting average in 2002 with zero run production. I said hitting as a generalization. I never said batting average.

 

Honey, i was talking about Cobra.

[SCM33]

Honey' date=' i was talking about Cobra.[/quote']

 

What?

[Dipre]

I think what he meant' date=' was OB means nothing if you arent hitting, which could be true (usually not) besides the fact that the RedSox are doing fine in the RS category minus the post allstar hiccup.[/quote']

 

As response to this post, you were defending cobra, and i was attacking him for backing up his comment with BA, since the team was "hitting .265" get it now?

[SCM33]

Didn't care enough to know his name was cobra, and really wasn't defending him, but since your huge in the internet battles wins and losses type of thing......sure I get it.

[TedWilliams101]

Again.

 

Batting average is the most useless stat in the history of ever.

 

If you wanna say the team ain't scoring consistently, please don't use batting average as your support stat.

 

I wouldn't say that. There is still plenty of correlation between BA, RS, RBI, etc. The top run-scoring teams tend to have the highest BA (along with OPS, obviously).

 

No standard stat will ever tell you everything, that's the whole point of sabermetrics. I still don't get why you are on such a crusade against BA. It's just as valid/useful as OBP, SLG, OPS, etc. It tells us, better than any other stat, how good of a contact hitter someone is (along with strikeout rates).

 

I personally like guys who hit for a high average. I LIKE hits, I'd rather a guy get on base via a hit than a walk because he makes the defense work, has a better shot a driving in runs, etc. Enough of these Adam Dunn vs Ichiro examples. It's a useful stats in many many situations (like when comparing a Pujols/Manny hitter with a Dunn type hitter. Pure hitter vs power hitter, etc).

[Dipre]

I wouldn't say that. There is still plenty of correlation between BA, RS, RBI, etc. The top run-scoring teams tend to have the highest BA (along with OPS, obviously).

 

No standard stat will ever tell you everything, that's the whole point of sabermetrics. I still don't get why you are on such a crusade against BA. It's just as valid/useful as OBP, SLG, OPS, etc. It tells us, better than any other stat, how good of a contact hitter someone is (along with strikeout rates).

 

I personally like guys who hit for a high average. I LIKE hits, I'd rather a guy get on base via a hit than a walk because he makes the defense work, has a better shot a driving in runs, etc. Enough of these Adam Dunn vs Ichiro examples. It's a useful stats in many many situations (like when comparing a Pujols/Manny hitter with a Dunn type hitter. Pure hitter vs power hitter, etc).

 

Juan Pierre and LAA.

 

'Nuff said.

[Dipre]

Didn't care enough to know his name was cobra' date=' and really wasn't defending him, but since your huge in the internet battles wins and losses type of thing......sure I get it.[/quote']

 

Internet battles?

 

Ok buddy.

[example1]

I wouldn't say that. There is still plenty of correlation between BA, RS, RBI, etc. The top run-scoring teams tend to have the highest BA (along with OPS, obviously).

 

No standard stat will ever tell you everything, that's the whole point of sabermetrics. I still don't get why you are on such a crusade against BA. It's just as valid/useful as OBP, SLG, OPS, etc. It tells us, better than any other stat, how good of a contact hitter someone is (along with strikeout rates).

 

I think being a good contact hitter is better represented by K rates (as you mentioned) and that OBP is the more useful indicator of how good a hitter is in the box, which is really what it is all about. A hitter who can foul off pitch after pitch to not strike out is useful, but if they are swinging at pitched outside the zone to foul them off then they are missing opportunities to get on base. OBP better quantifies a hitter's ability to not make outs. Looking at AVG and OBP together (subtracting AVG from OBP) gives IsoD (Isolated Plate Discipline) which is really useful in being able to tell how good a player is aside from their ups and downs with the stick. A hitter who maintains a .100+ IsoD is someone who manages to get on via-walk a substantial amount compared to others whose AVG and OBP are basically the same (low IsoD).

 

 

I personally like guys who hit for a high average. I LIKE hits, I'd rather a guy get on base via a hit than a walk because he makes the defense work, has a better shot a driving in runs, etc. Enough of these Adam Dunn vs Ichiro examples. It's a useful stats in many many situations (like when comparing a Pujols/Manny hitter with a Dunn type hitter. Pure hitter vs power hitter, etc).

 

I'd rather a guy get on base via a hit OR a walk rather than making an out. I don't feel like most teams are at liberty to pick or choose how they avoid making outs. Hits are nice, walks are nice....

 

Breaking down the numbers with IsoD allows us to see much more clearly what is REALLY going on with a hitter whose numbers are abnormally up or down. Hitting .218 with a .340 OBP for an IsoD of .122? If that IsoD is roughly the career average, then eye is probably still there, the issue may be with hitting the ball or it may be with bad luck. If it drops quickly then it may be an indication that something else (hand-eye coordination, reflexes, vision, etc.,) may be off. Useful to be able to ascertain... especially in these parts where people yell about the sky falling whenver there is a loss of a tough 0-4 night.

 

 

Most of the other posters are right though. AVG is an antiquated stat that speaks to luck and the skill of hitting the ball in such a way as to get the hitter on-base. OBP speaks to the ability to battle at the plate and control the AB against MLB pitchers. Hitters who get on at a .400 clip tend to control their ABs better than players who only get on .330. Conversely, a hitter who bats .310 may be much worse at actually controlling ABs and having plate discipline and body control than someone who hits .260. The plate discipline should continue throughout his career... the ability to get seeing-eye singles and bloopers mixed in with your linedrives is not something that can be counted on. If you look primarily at AVG then you miss the value of the guy who hit .260 and who gets on base at a .400+ clip for the flash of the guy who hits .310 with an OBP of .330. Overall the .400+ OBP guy makes far fewer outs than the .330 guy does and gives his team much more opportunity to put runs on the board.

[Paradisecity]

Im sure someone has calculated by now statistically which is more important to a team in its purest sense, avg, or OBP and can quantify it for us with the number of runs per game difference. With controls, a team with a .300 avg and .350 OBP will score how many runs in a given game? What about a team with a .250 avg and .400 OBP? Using the percentage of runners scoring from 1st and second on a hit would obviously be important.

 

Someone Bill James-ish must have done something like that 5000 times over by now, right?

[BSN07]

Im sure someone has calculated by now statistically which is more important to a team in its purest sense, avg, or OBP and can quantify it for us with the number of runs per game difference. With controls, a team with a .300 avg and .350 OBP will score how many runs in a given game? What about a team with a .250 avg and .400 OBP? Using the percentage of runners scoring from 1st and second on a hit would obviously be important.

 

Someone Bill James-ish must have done something like that 5000 times over by now, right?

I'm no good with finding the graphs and stuff. But I'm confident someone here will be able to produce something useful.

[SoxSport]

Don't look now, but the Red Sox just got a guy who's a switch hitter, hits with power and average, and plays 1B and catcher. For a medium talented young pitcher who hasn't been able to get LHd hitters out this year. And this guy is signed for $7M next year. His name is not Teixeira. Extend him now.

 

Regarding Lowell, I look for him to DH against LHP for the rest of the year.They need to improve their defense on the left side of the infield. Ortiz needs to be dropped to 6th again,where he hit well in June, and face only RHP. Fortunately, VMart gives them enough hitting depth to cancel out Papi.

[ManRam]

Don't look now, but the Red Sox just got a guy who's a switch hitter, hits with power and average, and plays 1B and catcher. For a medium talented young pitcher who hasn't been able to get LHd hitters out this year. And this guy is signed for $7M next year. His name is not Teixeira. Extend him now.

 

I don't know about that unless we're commited to him as our future 1B (perhaps opening Anderson for a trade) and Youk as the 3B... But that still leaves us with no starting catcher beyond next year unless one of the prospects pans out (which could very well happen).

[BoSox21]

I don't know about that unless we're commited to him as our future 1B (perhaps opening Anderson for a trade) and Youk as the 3B... But that still leaves us with no starting catcher beyond next year unless one of the prospects pans out (which could very well happen).

 

All depending on what the lineup looks like two years from now, I can live with Kotchman in a platoon at the very least. The Martinez acquisition gives them a lot more flexibility in filling future holes.

[Dojji]

I want to make sure that Martinez' handling skills are better than he showed us in his first game behind the plate. Wouldn't be the first time not having Tek behind the plate has been a disaster for our pitching staff.

[cobra24]

Well, think about it. "OPS doesn't mean crap if we aren't scoring runs."

 

Sense: that makes none.

 

im sorry.. i thought you said OBP... OPS means alot but if im remember right lowell has better numbers then tek in avg., obp., ops., and on....

 

I get what you are all saying, but i really think we need someone in the line up thats going to get on a little more. i think it might be hard to beat the big teams if we dont..

[cobra24]

There's a little more to baseball than you read in the morning paper, Cobra.

 

Just to bring you up to date:

 

AVG is useful for some things but as a measure of overall hitting talent it's very outdated. Stick with OBP, SLG and On Base Plus Slugging (OPS). That's still not perfect but it's better than batting average.

 

There are posters here who pay careful attention to the game and to the advanced numbers. If it's a common opinion here it's far more likely to be right than wrong in the long run. I say that as someone who goes against the common opinion a lot here. Unless we're going out of their way to be jerks, not unheard of here, it's better to assume that we know what we're talking about than it is to assume we don't.

 

yeah, i get what you are saying. i read what he put wrong.. sorry! i know quite a bit about this sport.

 

so why wouldnt you keep lowell (as long as he can keep playing 3B with out any problems.) in the line up and sit tek. lowell has a better avg. and ops???

[Gom]

I want to make sure that Martinez' handling skills are better than he showed us in his first game behind the plate. Wouldn't be the first time not having Tek behind the plate has been a disaster for our pitching staff.

 

Now you are going to start to see what we as Yankee fans know...at least the astute ones.

[Dipre]

Now you are going to start to see what we as Yankee fans know...at least the astute ones.

 

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/38/84912109_80740bba6e.jpg

 

Stop it.

 

Srsly.

[jacksonianmarch]

Dont let idiot Gom fool you. Having a catcher who can hit well above average is a really solid advantage.

[Dipre]

Dont let idiot Gom fool you. Having a catcher who can hit well above average is a really solid advantage.

 

Framing pitches.

 

Lolz.

[TheKilo]

I want to make sure that Martinez' handling skills are better than he showed us in his first game behind the plate. Wouldn't be the first time not having Tek behind the plate has been a disaster for our pitching staff.

 

Give me a f***ing break, why can't the pitchers ever be accountable?

[a700hitter]

Give me a f***ing break' date=' why can't the pitchers ever be accountable?[/quote']

 

If Ted Williams were alive today, he would tell you that pitchers are the stupidest animals on earth.

[Dipre]

If Ted Williams were alive today' date=' he would tell you that pitchers are the stupidest animals on earth.[/quote']

 

If he told me that, i would call him a f***ing idiot and flip him off.

[Dojji]

Give me a f***ing break' date=' why can't the pitchers ever be accountable?[/quote']

 

Pitching staffs caught by Martinez have a history of being long on talent and somewhat short on results.

 

I really want to see a bigger sample size of what pitchers do when they're throwing to him before I anoint him as anything but a convenient option for next year.

[Dipre]

Pitching staffs caught by Martinez have a history of being long on talent and somewhat short on results.

 

I really want to see a bigger sample size of what pitchers do when they're throwing to him before I anoint him as anything but a convenient option for next year.

 

Smalles sample size in the history of EVER.

 

Changed thy post, huh?