The Catcher Situation

[Dojji]

Yeah, I did, because i knew that one wasn't going to a good place.

[Dipre]

Yeah' date=' I did, because i knew that one wasn't going to a good place.[/quote']

 

Small sample sizes.

 

Stay away from using them.

[TheKilo]

Pitching staffs caught by Martinez have a history of being long on talent and somewhat short on results.

 

I really want to see a bigger sample size of what pitchers do when they're throwing to him before I anoint him as anything but a convenient option for next year.

 

So, 2007 means nothing, seeing as it's been Carmona's only good year ever? And he did catch the Cy Young winner that year as well.

 

In fact, Martinez has caught the last two Cy Young winners!

[Dojji]

So, 2007 means nothing, seeing as it's been Carmona's only good year ever? And he did catch the Cy Young winner that year as well.

 

In fact, Martinez has caught the last two Cy Young winners!

 

CC Sabathia is a unique talent that would probably be effective pitching to just about any catcher.

 

And I thought Shoppach did a lot of the catching for Lee. I could be mistaken.

[ORS]

A guy says this....

 

Give me a f***ing break, why can't the pitchers ever be accountable?

 

...and then somewhere down the line you say this....

 

CC Sabathia is a unique talent that would probably be effective pitching to just about any catcher.

 

Seriously?

 

You just said the results were depedent on the pitcher, not the catcher. You see the incongruity here, right?

[Dojji]

No, I said that whatever affect a catcher has, CC Sabathia is talented enough to more than overcome it.

 

Why do you insist on continually attempting to make two compatible statements sound like a big contradiction?

[ORS]

Oh, I don't know, maybe it's because they contradict each other. If a good pitcher can pitch well despite a bad catcher, then a terrible pitcher can pitch poorly despite a good catcher. I'm not suggesting Martinez is particularly good, but your contradiction does exist. They aren't compatible because you fail to extend the full meaning of what you are saying to the counterpoint.

[a700hitter]

If he told me that' date=' i would call him a f***ing idiot and flip him off.[/quote']Teddy was a bit opinionated, but if you were fortunate enough to have met him, you'd never think of flipping him off.

[Dojji]

No, there isn't a contradiction. A good pitcher can pitch well despite a bad catcher, but he'd pitch better with a good one. A poor pitcher will suck with any catcher, but a good one will allow him to hide his flaws better. And there's a lot of pitchers in the middle for whom a good catcher can be the difference between effectiveness and ineffectiveness.

 

A catcher can have a net positive and net negative effect on a pitching staff. All I'm saying is, I want to see which one Martinez is with this staff before I hand him the reins for next year and beyond.

[Dipre]

No' date=' there isn't a contradiction. A good pitcher can pitch [i']well[/i] despite a bad catcher, but he'd pitch better with a good one. A poor pitcher will suck with any catcher, but a good one will allow him to hide his flaws better. And there's a lot of pitchers in the middle for whom a good catcher can be the difference between effectiveness and ineffectiveness.

 

A catcher can have a net positive and net negative effect on a pitching staff. All I'm saying is, I want to see which one Martinez is with this staff before I hand him the reins for next year and beyond.

 

The f***?

 

Pitches are getting called by Varitek and Tito from the dugout.

 

Not only are you contradicting yourself, but you're way overstating the importance of a catcher's defensive skill.

 

A good pitcher will be a bit better with a great catcher, and a sucky pitcher will suck a little more with a bad catcher, but it's not like he's gonna make a one point difference in ERA.

[TheKilo]

It's the same argument that I hear (and can't stand) when people say "look what happened in 2006 when Varitek got hurt - our season went in the tank!"

 

Had nothing to do with Kyle Snyder, Jason Johnson, and Kevin Jarvis making meaningful starts in August and September, right?

[BSN07]

It's the same argument that I hear (and can't stand) when people say "look what happened in 2006 when Varitek got hurt - our season went in the tank!"

 

Had nothing to do with Kyle Snyder, Jason Johnson, and Kevin Jarvis making meaningful starts in August and September, right?

 

I don't care for that one either.

 

Tek does have some valuable intangibles. But nothing I think would sink this team if he wasn't there.

[ORS]

No' date=' there isn't a contradiction. A good pitcher can pitch [i']well[/i] despite a bad catcher, but he'd pitch better with a good one. A poor pitcher will suck with any catcher, but a good one will allow him to hide his flaws better. And there's a lot of pitchers in the middle for whom a good catcher can be the difference between effectiveness and ineffectiveness.

This is just a restatement of the contradiction I'm trying to get you to acknowledge.

 

Look at what you are saying. Good pitchers are good regardless of the catcher, bad pitchers are bad. In other words, it's about the pitcher, which is the point you were arguing against with TheKilo.

[jacksonianmarch]

As a player growing up, a good catcher was worth his weight in gold. But the standards as a kid entail being able to block routine pitches and be able to get a throw down to second. To me, a catcher can call whatever he wants. The pitcher is still gonna shake him off if he wants to for the most part. And framing may fool the novice umpire. But a good umpire watches where the ball crosses and not where it is caught. Therefore, I dont care about a catcher's calling ability or framing ability. I do care if they can block routine balls and make the throw to second. If they cannot do that, then they shouldnt catch. If they can do that, then great. Posada and VMart can do this.

[TheKilo]

Varitek needs to sit. He's an embarrassment.

[162watch]

I absolutely love V-MAR ....He is a hitting MACHINE...He is a great addition....Kottares needs to get traded NOW...Forget the catcher problem...im more worried about the shortstop problem...we have NOWON!!!! I mean come in right now we have to debate on lowrie or green....how bout some1 good!

[SCM33]

Varitek needs to sit. He's an embarrassment.

 

Well hes right on par for his post allstar game suckiness, it is his staple and we saw it coming. I knew his .230 Batting Average/ modest power/ OB skills (hes always had at least those) was too good to last.

 

Now his defensive deficiencies will come out (as if they already havent, TB could have signed Cecil Fielder....today version, and he would get a green light).

 

 

 

 

BUT WAIT!!!!!!!! INTANGIBLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!INTANGIBLES MAKE UP FOR EVERYTHING, HE CALLS A GREAT GAME!!!!!!!!!