7/18 @ Toronto

[a700hitter]

You're willing to mention Buchholz's 2008 but you completely ignore Penny's 2008. Penny was 6-9 with an ERA of 6.28 in 2008. He's been better this year but last year his ERA was 10.00 in his 4 starts in the 2nd half of the season. Penny's not as reliable of an option as you seem to think.

 

And I don't see us getting much for Penny..a AAA player likely. I just think going into the stretch run a rotation of Beckett-Lester-Wakefield-Smoltz-Buchholz is much more reliable than Beckett-Lester-Wakefield-Penny-Smoltz with Masterson, Bowden and Matsuzaka ready to go if an injury happens.

The difference is that Penny has been successful at this level. Buchholz is yet to prove himself. That's why I didn't mention Penny's 2008. And again, do you really think they can get a guy for Penny that will help this team.

[Cocos Disciples]

3.79 ERA since May 1 coming into today, I'll take that for a back end starter.

[Looch Ness Monster]

The difference is that Penny has been succesful at this level. Buchholz is yet to prove himself. That's why I didn't mention Penny's 2008. And again' date=' do you really think they can get a guy for Penny that will help this team.[/quote']

 

No, I think you said it though. No way Penny goes unless Halladay comes in. I agree that you can't just trade him, it needs to be a follow up move.

[Dutchy]

You don't trade a solid starter during a pennant drive.

 

You do if you have a starter waiting in the minors who can be more than "solid". It doesn't make sense to keep Penny around just so we can say we have Buchholz as a good backup plan.

[VA Sox Fan]

Nice inning by Masterson

[a700hitter]

You do if you have a starter waiting in the minors who can be more than "solid". It doesn't make sense to keep Penny around just so we can say we have Buchholz as a good backup plan.

We don't have someone in the minors that we know would be more solid this season.

[Looch Ness Monster]

Lowrie! Atta boy!

[Dutchy]

The difference is that Penny has been successful at this level. Buchholz is yet to prove himself. That's why I didn't mention Penny's 2008. And again' date=' do you really think they can get a guy for Penny that will help this team.[/quote']

 

When will Buchholz ever get a chance to prove himself if we keep him in the minors?

 

And yes, they probably could get a player that would improve the team. Plenty of teams need pitching, we could upgrade our corner infielder.

[msubulldogs21]

Alright, Lowrie. That was smoked.

[Dutchy]

Lowrie! That's the kind of production I was waiting for.

[Jasonbay44]

Lowrie! Cutting into the deficit..

[a700hitter]

When will Buchholz ever get a chance to prove himself if we keep him in the minors?

 

And yes, they probably could get a player that would improve the team. Plenty of teams need pitching, we could upgrade our corner infielder.

He'll get his chance in ST next year. There's no reason to rush him. He's insurance for this year.

[Dutchy]

We don't have someone in the minors that we know would be more solid this season.

 

No prospect is a sure thing, but you have to promote them eventually anyways. Buchholz has potential to be better than Penny, I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

[Jasonbay44]

Damn, nice play by Rolen.

[Looch Ness Monster]

He'll get his chance in ST next year. There's no reason to rush him. He's insurance for this year.

 

Top tier pitching prospects aren't insurance...

 

Brad Penny was originally signed as insurance. John Smoltz was originally signed as insurance.

 

And I don't get where you get off saying Buchholz blew the chance at the division last year. I'm pretty sure it was the fact that we couldn't beat Tampa Bay and lost the season series to them. He would be starting every 5th day...he wouldn't "blow the division" for us this year.

[Cocos Disciples]

Penny is on a 1 year deal, Buch likely has a spot next year. I doubt we get any significant value for Penny.

[Dutchy]

He'll get his chance in ST next year. There's no reason to rush him. He's insurance for this year.

 

It's not rushing him. He's proven that he can handle AAA.

[VA Sox Fan]

I've lost the game

[VA Sox Fan]

Now it's back. Missed Lowrie's HR.

[a700hitter]

Top tier pitching prospects aren't insurance...

 

Brad Penny was originally signed as insurance. John Smoltz was originally signed as insurance.

 

And I don't get where you get off saying Buchholz blew the chance at the division last year. I'm pretty sure it was the fact that we couldn't beat Tampa Bay and lost the season series to them.

They are all insurance for each other at the bottom of the rotation. Unfortunately for Clay, he is the only one with options, so he goes to the minors.

[a700hitter]

It's not rushing him. He's proven that he can handle AAA.

But he hasn't proven that he can handle the majors. He'll get that chance next season. He may even get a chance in September.

[Dutchy]

But he hasn't proven that he can handle the majors. He'll get that chance next season. He may even get a chance in September.

 

It's impossible for a player to prove that he can handle the majors until you put him in the majors. I don't consider that to be a valid reason for keeping someone in the minors.

[Looch Ness Monster]

But he hasn't proven that he can handle the majors. He'll get that chance next season. He may even get a chance in September.

 

He's proven he can handle the majors. He just hasn't proven he can handle a full season in the Majors. We're not asking him to give us a full season in the Majors. We're asking him for 2 months, assuming he would be back up in August after a hypothetical Penny trade at the deadline.

 

He gave us 2 months in 2007 and had a pretty good ride. And I think he's much more mentally/physically strong and focused than he was in 2007 and 2008 as well. In the past if he didn't have his best stuff, he got frustrated and blew. Last night he didn't have his best stuff and still seemed to have a pretty good outing.

 

9 of Penny's 18 starts have been quality starts. It's honestly unreasonable to expect 50% of Buchholz's starts for August and September to be quality starts after he absolutely dominated the hitters at the AAA level and after last night?

[a700hitter]

It's impossible for a player to prove that he can handle the majors until you put him in the majors. That's not a very good argument for keeping him in the minors.

The good argument for keeping him in the minors is that you don't trade a proven major leaguer in the middle of a pennant race (2-game lead on the Yanks after today and Tampa lurking) to give a kid a chance to prove that he can handle it. If you trade penny and Buchholz doesn't perform, maybe you find yourself without October baseball.

[Dutchy]

The good argument for keeping him in the minors is that you don't trade a proven major leaguer in the middle of a pennant race (2-game lead on the Yanks after today and Tampa lurking) to give a kid a chance to prove that he can handle it. If you trade penny and Buchholz doesn't perform' date=' maybe you find yourself without October baseball.[/quote']

 

I find it unlikely that one of Buchholz, Bowden or Masterson couldn't manage to have a high 4's ERA and a WHIP of 1.50 as our 5th starter. It's not like Penny's proven that he can pitch above average. The only thing that he's proven this year is that he can go 3.5 months without losing his spot in the rotation. It's not like he's piched all that well or given us any length. He's never made it into the 8th inning of a game, and he usually only gives us about 5 innings.

[a700hitter]

I find it unlikely that one of Buchholz' date=' Bowden or Masterson couldn't manage to have a high 4's ERA and a WHIP of 1.50 as our 5th starter. It's not like Penny's proven that he can pitch above average. The only thing that he's proven this year is that he can go 3.5 months without losing his spot in the rotation. It's not like he's piched all that well or given us any length. He's never made it into the 8th inning of a game, and he usually only gives us about 5 innings.[/quote']Well, it ain't gonna happen, because the FO doesn't see the wisdom in the move either.

[Spudboy]

They are all insurance for each other at the bottom of the rotation. Unfortunately for Clay' date=' he is the only one with options, so he goes to the minors.[/quote']

 

I may be wrong, but I think the Sox just used Buck's last option yesterday.

[Jasonbay44]

Horrible play.

[Spudboy]

Lowrie f***ed that up. Lowell called for it.

[a700hitter]

I may be wrong' date=' but I think the Sox just used Buck's last option yesterday.[/quote']No, he can be sent up and down all year long.