Teixeira and Henry War of Words

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

You guys are pretty f***ing gullible, I'll say that much.

[example1]

Who are you talking about JE? Explain yourself.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Who are you talking about JE? Explain yourself.

Not you, the usual 4 or 5 people who have been crying their eyes out for the past year over the Red Sox not paying truly obscene money for Teixeira (the only way they would have gotten him), and are using Boras' latest oh-so-credible ******** to say 'LOL LOOK SEE? FRONT OFFICE SUCKS LOL'. I mean, seriously?

[example1]

I just have a hard time believing that a700 is supporting such an obvious ageist *******:

 

"How old is Mr. Henry?" Teixeira asked of Henry, who is 59. "There is no reason for me to get into any war of words with some 70-something-year-old man. It doesn't make sense."

 

Perhaps if Mr. Henry were 30-something he would be worthy of arguing with.

[example1]

Without knowing what the offer was that Teixeira put in front of the Red Sox we are all left guessing (even if some here think they can read minds and have inside information).

 

Given that we don't know and are all guessing, it comes down to a judge of character.

 

*We have reason to believe that the Red Sox did a detailed analysis of Teixeira's worth to the franchise over the length of his contract, not just 2009.

 

*We have reason to believe that the Red Sox offered something like $20.5m/yr to Teixeira over 8 years.

 

*We have reason to believe that the Sox were genuinely interested in making Mark Teixeira a member of their team and that they truly want to win.

 

---

 

If you assume the FO to be cheap and unwilling to go the extra mile then you're more likely to take Scott Boras's side that Henry was simply cheap and unwilling to do what it takes to win.

 

If you assume the FO actually has a successful business model then you're more likely to take Henry's side that the negotiations at some point became really ugly, and it probably correlated strongly with Teixeira's so-called "offer".

 

 

Given this team's recent success, and Boras's penchant for being a complete ass, I have no reason to give he and horse-faced-douchebag Teixeira the benefit of the doubt.

[a700hitter]

It's also how a customer pushes away a potential seller.

 

 

------

 

A700, do you really believe that the Sox would walk away from negotiations over a few million here or there? Why would they walk away angry and declaring that a deal isn't going to happen unless the offer had been something absurd? Why would they close negotiations? It doesn't make sense.

 

You assume that means they're cheap and too stupid to close the deal.

 

I assume it means that Teixeira and Boras were ramping up the price on them to a level that was entirely unacceptable.

 

How much would you have been willing to have them pay? $30m? I'm being serious.

 

 

EDIT: Would it change your thinking if you knew Teixeira demanded 10 yr/$250m? 10 yr/$300m? Why do you believe his offer was reasonable?

You will always assume the FO made the right decision. To you they are infallible. No one is infallible. I look at the facts as we know them and the outcome. The FO had exclusive access to Tex at the time and they didn't get the job done. They have walked away from deals over a few million in the past. In 2006, they walked away from the table because Philly wouldn't agree to eat enough of Abreu's contract. Well, we know what happened. So, don't say that they wouldn't be stupid enough to walk away from a deal over a few million. They've done it before.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

You will always assume the FO made the right decision. To you they are infallible. No one is infallible. I look at the facts as we know them and the outcome. The FO had exclusive access to Tex at the time and they didn't get the job done. They have walked away from deals over a few million in the past.

 

Wow guy, why the f*** aren't you a hot shot GM in the majors? With your remarkable wits, eye for detail, and in-and-out knowledge of the game and the business that goes with it, you'd think someone would've snatched you up by now. Because you >>>>> Red Sox front office, clearly.

 

In 2006, they walked away from the table because Philly wouldn't agree to eat enough of Abreu's contract. Well, we know what happened. So, don't say that they wouldn't be stupid enough to walk away from a deal over a few million. They've done it before.

 

They missed the playoffs because they wouldn't pay excessive money for a J.D. Drew knockoff. Boo-hoo.

[a700hitter]

Wow guy, why the f*** aren't you a hot shot GM in the majors? With your remarkable wits, eye for detail, and in-and-out knowledge of the game and the business that goes with it, you'd think someone would've snatched you up by now. Because you >>>>> Red Six front office, clearly.

.

Other than Theo, Lucchino and the owners I am pretty sure that I make more money than the rest of the FO. I've seen the salaries of some of the other GM's around baseball, and I know I make more than some of them, so no thanks to the cut in pay. How much do you get paid to keep flunking accounting? My tax dollars are probably supporting you.

[yankees228]

I'm not taking sides here, but saying someone is wrong, simply on the premise that they're just a fan, is not a fair argument.

[Dipre]

Lol this will become hilarious in just a moment.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Other than Theo' date=' Zucchini and the owners I am pretty sure that I make more money than the rest of the FO.[/quote']

 

Good for you. Are the rest of the FO the ones making these calls that have your panties in a bunch? Part of me doubts it.

 

I've seen the salaries of some of the other GM's around baseball, and I know I make more than some of them, so no thanks to the cut in pay.

 

As cute as your paycheck strawman was, why aren't you working in the baseball industry, maybe as a journalist? You apparently know how everything goes down and were all over those Teixeira negotiations from start to finish and are very very informed in making the verdict that the front office is a bunch of prudent f***s because they won't spend a zillion dollars on one player to make you happy.

 

How much do you get paid to keep flunking accounting? My tax dollars are probably supporting you.

 

I assure you they're not.

[a700hitter]

Good for you. Are the rest of the FO the ones making these calls that have your panties in a bunch? Part of me doubts it.

 

 

 

As cute as your paycheck strawman was, why aren't you working in the baseball industry, maybe as a journalist? You apparently know how everything goes down and were all over those Teixeira negotiations from start to finish and are very very informed in making the verdict that the front office is a bunch of prudent f***s because they won't spend a zillion dollars on one player to make you happy.

Good comeback. Based on that logic, since no one on this forum works for a major league FO, none of the opinions stated on this site would have any validity. I guess we should just shut down the site. You need to do better than that.:thumbdown. If you want to take a swipe at me, make an attempt that is not laughable, otherwise just take out your frustration at me by screaming into your pillow. Now, why don't you go study for accounting course so you can support yourself some day.

[yankees228]

^That is also the point I was trying to make.

 

The, "you're not in baseball, so you're not qualified to speak on the matter", argument is pretty ridiculous.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Good comeback. Based on that logic' date=' since no one on this forum works for a major league FO, none of the opinions stated on this site would have any validity. I guess we should just shut down the site. You need to do better than that.:thumbdown.[/quote']

 

Do you read? CAN you read?

 

The whole point of this, which clearly sailed a mile over your head (shocker), is... WHO THE f*** ARE YOU TO SLAM THE FRONT OFFICE FOR BOTCHING NEGOTIATIONS WHEN YOU HAVE VERY LITTLE TO NO TRUE INFORMATION ON THE MATTER?

 

Where in f***'s name did I suggest none of us are fit to express opinions since we aren't GMs? I didn't, you just think I did because you are barely literate. I called you and those who think like you out, rightfully, for taking shots at the front office for supposedly blowing the Teixeira negotiations when there is a shitload of red tape in the matter and the information available to us, the outsiders, is very limited and pretty cloudy. Some of us, like me and example, are choosing to use common sense in our interpretation of things, and then we have people like you, who are convinced that the Red Sox FO are cheapskates because they didn't sign Teixeira to a truly hideous contract (WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN THE ONLY WAY TO ACQUIRE HIM). Do you know why this is? MONEY. The Yankees have more of it. The Yankees also know what getting Teixeira would mean to our offense, as well as theirs. They have all the power, because they have more money. If the Yankees had decided that THEY WANTED TEIXEIRA, THEY WERE GETTING TEIXEIRA. 99.999% of all free agents care about TOP DOLLAR, and since Teixeira is not a 38 year old New England native who just wants one year in Fenway (in fact, he's a bonafide slugger in the prime of his career! what might that say about things?), he doesn't fall into that rather small remaining portion. All caught up?

 

What the f*** is so hard to understand about this? Are you f***ing illiterate or something? Retarded? You're f***ing 50 and you can barely read, and have absolutely zero common sense. You live in a f***ing dream world where EVERYONE wants to play for the Red Sox and only the big bad front office can ruin things, and often do by having the gall to think about the future. Unbelievable. Even the college student who flunked accounting last semester has a better handle on this crap than you, the middle aged rich guy. Sad s***.

 

If you want to take a swipe at me, make an attempt that is not laughable, otherwise just take out your frustration at me by screaming into your pillow.

 

Frustration? I'm LAUGHING at you. I'm laughing at how snugly you fit the description of cane-shaking old timer who thinks he knows more about everything than all these youngins out there.

 

Common sense is your friend.

 

Now, why don't you go study for accounting course so you can support yourself some day.

 

I love how you cling to this in every response to me. Since its pretty much the only edge you may have.

[a700hitter]

Do you read? CAN you read?

 

The whole point of this, which clearly sailed a mile over your head (shocker), is... WHO THE f*** ARE YOU TO SLAM THE FRONT OFFICE FOR BOTCHING NEGOTIATIONS WHEN YOU HAVE VERY LITTLE TO NO TRUE INFORMATION ON THE MATTER?

 

Where in f***'s name did I suggest none of us are fit to express opinions since we aren't GMs? I didn't, you just think I did because you are barely literate. I called you and those who think like you out, rightfully, for taking shots at the front office for supposedly blowing the Teixeira negotiations when there is a shitload of red tape in the matter and the information available to us, the outsiders, is very limited and pretty cloudy. Some of us, like me and example, are choosing to use common sense in our interpretation of things, and then we have people like you, who are convinced that the Red Sox FO are cheapskates because they didn't sign Teixeira to a truly hideous contract (WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN THE ONLY WAY TO ACQUIRE HIM). Do you know why this is? MONEY. The Yankees have more of it. The Yankees also know what getting Teixeira would mean to our offense, as well as theirs. They have all the power, because they have more money. If the Yankees had decided that THEY WANTED TEIXEIRA, THEY WERE GETTING TEIXEIRA. 99.999% of all free agents care about TOP DOLLAR, and since Teixeira is not a 38 year old New England native who just wants one year in Fenway (in fact, he's a bonafide slugger in the prime of his career! what might that say about things?), he doesn't fall into that remaining .001%. All caught up?

 

What the f*** is so hard to understand about this? Are you f***ing illiterate or something? Retarded? You're f***ing 50 and you can barely read, and have absolutely zero common sense. You live in a f***ing dream world where EVERYONE wants to play for the Red Sox and only the big bad front office can ruin things, and often do by having the gall to think about the future. Unbelievable. Even the college student who flunked accounting last semester has a better handle on this crap than you, the middle aged rich guy. Sad s***.

 

 

 

Frustration? I'm LAUGHING at you. I'm laughing at how snugly you fit the description of cane-shaking old timer who thinks he knows more about everything than all these youngins out there.

 

Common sense is your friend.

 

 

 

I love how you cling to this in every response to me. Since its pretty much the only edge you may have.

This is it? You would have been better off screaming into your pillow. What experience would you have in negotiations? You can't even convince people in the college administration office that you go to the school. Go grow up little boy before you try to teach me about anything.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

This is it? You would have been better off screaming into your pillow. What experience would you have in negotiations? You can't even convince people in the college administration office that you go to the school. Go grow up little boy before you try to teach me about anything.

Typical cop-out response. It is proven that once again that a700hitter has no clue what he's talking about, so the clown makes some really weak comment to the effect of 'LOL LOOK HOW MAD I MADE U', or 'LOL LITTLE BOY I'M OLDER THAN YOU SO I WIN', or 'LOL U FAILED ACCOUNTING' (or some other college related crack). Monotonous as s***.

 

For the record, you don't really need experience in negotiations to know that money is the be-all end-all. Where in the f*** would you even pull something like that out a post geared toward how little credible information about things there is? What a f***ing retard you are. This is hilarious.

[a700hitter]

Typical cop-out response. It is proven that once again that a700hitter has no clue what he's talking about, so the clown makes some really weak comment to the effect of 'LOL LOOK HOW MAD I MADE U', or 'LOL LITTLE BOY I'M OLDER THAN YOU SO I WIN', or 'LOL U FAILED ACCOUNTING' (or some other college related crack). Monotonous as s***.

 

For the record, you don't really need experience in negotiations to know that money is the be-all end-all. Where in the f*** would you even pull something like that out a post geared toward how little credible information about things there is? What a f***ing retard you are. This is hilarious.

I prefer the posts of yours where you demonstrate your idiocy in a more succinct manner.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

I prefer the posts of yours where you demonstrate your idiocy in a more succinct manner.

If its idiocy, then why haven't you countered anything? You're just sitting there, pulling your usual quasi-trolling horseshit (o noez look wat I just did).

[example1]

You will always assume the FO made the right decision. To you they are infallible. No one is infallible.

 

Who says they are infallible? I think they have a system that they use, consistently. That system pays off at times and it doesn't at others. For the most part it has been really, really impressive. You know the track record. Combine that with the young core of this team and moving forward they are in really, really good shape. System = Good. Not infallible.

 

I look at the facts as we know them and the outcome. The FO had exclusive access to Tex at the time and they didn't get the job done.

 

I'm asking seriously and for the purposes of this discussion please answer: would you actually want the Red Sox to pay him $33m/yr over 8 years? If not, do you know what he asked for from the Red Sox? Why do you believe this?

 

It might give us a better context to discuss our thinking on this issue.

 

They have walked away from deals over a few million in the past. In 2006, they walked away from the table because Philly wouldn't agree to eat enough of Abreu's contract. Well, we know what happened.

 

Yes. The Yankees spent about $33 million to get a RF who mysteriously couldn't hit HRs anymore. Then they proceeded to lose in the first round of the playoffs for two consecutive years, and then miss the playoffs entirely. Now Abreu is on a different team.

 

Meanwhile, those stupid Red Sox won a WS in 2007 and made it to the ALCS in 2008 without Bobby Abreu.

 

What the hell are you talking about?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

^He's older than you, I wouldn't mess with him.

[a700hitter]

If its idiocy' date=' then why haven't you countered anything? You're just sitting there, pulling your usual quasi-trolling horseshit (o noez look wat I just did).[/quote']Was this the substantive thoughtful post that I was supposed to counter?

 

http://www.talksox.com/forum/499255-post37.html

 

IDK Maybe it's just me, but it just seems like a stream of insults. Some would call it trolling. What do you think? What kind of response did you expect?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Was this the substantive thoughtful post that I was supposed to counter?

 

http://www.talksox.com/forum/499255-post37.html

 

IDK Maybe it's just me, but it just seems like a stream of insults. Some would call it trolling. What do you think? What kind of response did you expect?

 

There are points in there. Read the post, and you might find them.

[RedSoxRooter]

Do you read? CAN you read?

 

The whole point of this, which clearly sailed a mile over your head (shocker), is... WHO THE f*** ARE YOU TO SLAM THE FRONT OFFICE FOR BOTCHING NEGOTIATIONS WHEN YOU HAVE VERY LITTLE TO NO TRUE INFORMATION ON THE MATTER?

 

Where in f***'s name did I suggest none of us are fit to express opinions since we aren't GMs? I didn't, you just think I did because you are barely literate. I called you and those who think like you out, rightfully, for taking shots at the front office for supposedly blowing the Teixeira negotiations when there is a shitload of red tape in the matter and the information available to us, the outsiders, is very limited and pretty cloudy. Some of us, like me and example, are choosing to use common sense in our interpretation of things, and then we have people like you, who are convinced that the Red Sox FO are cheapskates because they didn't sign Teixeira to a truly hideous contract (WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN THE ONLY WAY TO ACQUIRE HIM). Do you know why this is? MONEY. The Yankees have more of it. The Yankees also know what getting Teixeira would mean to our offense, as well as theirs. They have all the power, because they have more money. If the Yankees had decided that THEY WANTED TEIXEIRA, THEY WERE GETTING TEIXEIRA. 99.999% of all free agents care about TOP DOLLAR, and since Teixeira is not a 38 year old New England native who just wants one year in Fenway (in fact, he's a bonafide slugger in the prime of his career! what might that say about things?), he doesn't fall into that rather small remaining portion. All caught up?

 

What the f*** is so hard to understand about this? Are you f***ing illiterate or something? Retarded? You're f***ing 50 and you can barely read, and have absolutely zero common sense. You live in a f***ing dream world where EVERYONE wants to play for the Red Sox and only the big bad front office can ruin things, and often do by having the gall to think about the future. Unbelievable. Even the college student who flunked accounting last semester has a better handle on this crap than you, the middle aged rich guy. Sad s***.

 

 

 

Frustration? I'm LAUGHING at you. I'm laughing at how snugly you fit the description of cane-shaking old timer who thinks he knows more about everything than all these youngins out there.

 

Common sense is your friend.

 

 

 

I love how you cling to this in every response to me. Since its pretty much the only edge you may have.

 

My nomination as Post of the Year.

[Dipre]

If Clint took two seconds to stop bashing the FO and actually contemplated the points being made. The war would probably end.

[a700hitter]

There are points in there. Read the post' date=' and you might find them.[/quote']I rest my case.

[a700hitter]

I'm asking seriously and for the purposes of this discussion please answer: would you actually want the Red Sox to pay him $33m/yr over 8 years? If not, do you know what he asked for from the Red Sox? Why do you believe this?

 

It might give us a better context to discuss our thinking on this issue.

I don't think there is any reason not to believe that Boras did not make a proposal to the Red Sox. If John Henry refutes Boras' remark then I would believe him over the scumdog agent. From everything I have read, it seemed to me that the owners made an offer and tex made a counter-proposal. Neither of us know the specifics of either offer. Boras is not making them public, but neither has the FO. In business, when you are negotiating any deal, exclusive access means a lot. The FO had exclusive access, and IMO if they were good sales people they would have closed the deal. I have spent almost 25 years dealing with life insurance sales people. Life insurance is well known for being a product that is sold and not bought. Almost no one gets up in the morning and says, "I think I'll buy some life insurance." I've observed life insurance sales techniques, and if they can sell life insurance they can sell anything. There are times when we can blame the Yankees for blowing away the market, and that has happened, but in this case, the prevailing opinion is that the Yankees did not blow away the market. The prevailing opinion is that Tex just wanted to play for the Yankees. That's a cop out. I'll acknowledge that the Sox can't win a bidding war with the Yankees, but they should be able to compete when selling the Sox to a player. We can excuse being outbid, but people also seem to excuse them when $ isn't the issue.

 

Yes. The Yankees spent about $33 million to get a RF who mysteriously couldn't hit HRs anymore. Then they proceeded to lose in the first round of the playoffs for two consecutive years, and then miss the playoffs entirely. Now Abreu is on a different team.

 

Meanwhile, those stupid Red Sox won a WS in 2007 and made it to the ALCS in 2008 without Bobby Abreu.

Abreu was and is a pretty good player. He has a high OBP and generates a lot of runs. He is an excellent base runner who steals a lot of bases. He also seems to be able to hit the monster at will. The Red Sox FO did make a lot of good moves after 2006, but that doesn't mean that the Yankees didn't eat their lunch in 2006. Abreu was the Yankee's number 3 hitter that season. The Sox could have used him in 2006. Subsequent success does not convert a bad move into a good move. FO's make good and bad moves. The bad moves are not part of some grand scheme to get to the good moves. The bad moves stand on their own.

[yankees228]

Dipre and I are having the same conversation in another thread. Just like in ours, both sides bring up good points. There are logical arguments that say the Red Sox could have had Teixeira, and there are logical arguments that say he was definitely going to the Yankees.

 

The problem is, past that, it's nothing more than conjecture. Neither side can claim to be right in this matter, because we simply don't know. At this point I think we just have to acknowledge that both opinions are valid and logical, and move past it.

[a700hitter]

Dipre and I are having the same conversation in another thread. Just like in ours, both sides bring up good points. There are logical arguments that say the Red Sox could have had Teixeira, and there are logical arguments that say he was definitely going to the Yankees.

 

The problem is, past that, it's nothing more than conjecture. Neither side can claim to be right in this matter, because we simply don't know. At this point I think we just have to acknowledge that both opinions are valid and logical, and move past it.

We are in the realm of opinion. There is no conclusive evidence for either position. My opinion is no more valid than the opposing view, but some posters seek to invalidate the opinions of other without any proof for their own opinion. All along, I have stated that this is my opinion and nothing more.

[yankees228]

We are in the realm of opinion. There is no conclusive evidence for either position. My opinion is no more valid than the opposing view' date=' but some posters seek to invalidate the opinions of other without any proof for their own opinion. All along, I have stated that this is my opinion and nothing more.[/quote']

 

Right, my criticism wasn't really directed at you.

[example1]

I don't think there is any reason not to believe that Boras did not make a proposal to the Red Sox. If John Henry refutes Boras' remark then I would believe him over the scumdog agent. From everything I have read' date=' it seemed to me that the owners made an offer and tex made a counter-proposal. Neither of us know the specifics of either offer. [/quote']

 

I read in numerous places that the Red Sox were willing to go above $20m AAV. I never read what Teixeira asked for.

 

The only way that I agree with you is if I know that the Red Sox turned down the price that the Yankees paid him. If he took "less" to go to the Yankees then I will have every reason to think that Teixeira shot very high. I also have no reason to believe that Boras didn't have the idea that the Yankees could be involved.

 

In business, when you are negotiating any deal, exclusive access means a lot. The FO had exclusive access, and IMO if they were good sales people they would have closed the deal.

 

In sports, when you are negotiating any deal, the price of the player directly correlates to his value. Players' values are WINS vs. COST.

 

I know you don't care about overall cost, but to me that says a lot about how much you understand about business. You oscillate between "Any good businessman completes the deal" and "I'm a fan, I deserve for them to overpay. They have my money and a lot of money, so they should spare no expense and not care how much money they have in the end."

 

See what I'm saying? You can't both espouse the tenants of sound business and demand that they not pay attention to how much things cost.

 

I have spent almost 25 years dealing with life insurance sales people. Life insurance is well known for being a product that is sold and not bought. Almost no one gets up in the morning and says, "I think I'll buy some life insurance." I've observed life insurance sales techniques, and if they can sell life insurance they can sell anything.

 

Do you think they could sell Scott Boras on the contract they offer and not the one demanded by a Boras client? That's what you're asking for Henry to have done here.

 

There are times when we can blame the Yankees for blowing away the market, and that has happened, but in this case, the prevailing opinion is that the Yankees did not blow away the market. The prevailing opinion is that Tex just wanted to play for the Yankees.

 

That's not what most people are saying. Most people are saying that without knowing the price he demanded when Henry was at his house, it is impossible to know what happened and therefore whether the result was reasonable or not. You fly to assumptions about Henry's negotiation skill and the cheapness of the FO instead of offering the benefit of the doubt. To make matters worse, Boras is the guy you're siding with.

 

The reason you cite for siding with Boras actually has to do with the Red Sox unwillingness to pay other players, all of whom are only arguably worth what you propose the Sox pay them.

 

 

That's a cop out. I'll acknowledge that the Sox can't win a bidding war with the Yankees, but they should be able to compete when selling the Sox to a player. We can excuse being outbid, but people also seem to excuse them when $ isn't the issue.

 

If you don't care about costs overall, then how can you know that $ wasn't the issue? What is $10m worth? What exactly should John Henry spend to field a winning team?

 

I agree with you that losing out on Teixeira was a big blow. I simply disagree that it represents some huge strategic flaw, given what I don't know about the negotiations themselves. I have lots of reason to be suspicious any time that Scott Boras is involved.

 

Abreu was and is a pretty good player. He has a high OBP and generates a lot of runs. He is an excellent base runner who steals a lot of bases. He also seems to be able to hit the monster at will. The Red Sox FO did make a lot of good moves after 2006, but that doesn't mean that the Yankees didn't eat their lunch in 2006. Abreu was the Yankee's number 3 hitter that season. The Sox could have used him in 2006. Subsequent success does not convert a bad move into a good move. FO's make good and bad moves. The bad moves are not part of some grand scheme to get to the good moves. The bad moves stand on their own.

 

So you would rather have had Abreu than JD Drew over the past 3 seasons?

 

Between 2007 and 2008 Abreu put up 4.2 Wins Above Replacement. Drew put up 5.4 WAR.

 

Between 2007 and 2008 Abreu cost about $31m. Drew cost $28m.

 

Over the past four years 2006-2009:

 

Abreu: 10.2 total WAR (2.55/yr)

Drew: 14.4 total WAR (3.6/yr)

 

Abreu wasn't worth the cost of his contract, Drew was.

 

Which player would you rather have? The better, cheaper one, right? You're a business man.