Teixeira and Henry War of Words

[Tyler Durden]

I wouldn't believe a thing that comes out of Boras' mouth

[a700hitter]

I wouldn't believe a thing that comes out of Boras' mouth

People have a knee-jerk reaction to Boras- that he is a scum-sucking liar who cannot be trusted. If I were sitting on the opposite end the table negotiating with him, I wouldn't trust a word out of his mouth. But here's the thing with his latest statement, the Red Sox FO knows if it is a lie or not, because they were there. Now, although Boras is scum, he's not an idiot. The Red Sox are one of the top organizations in sports and we have signed many of his clients. Don't you think he wants the Red Sox to keep bidding on and signing his clients? What would he have to gain by telling such a lie? Nothing. He'd just be pissing off a big fish. Would that make any sense at all?

[a700hitter]

I read in numerous places that the Red Sox were willing to go above $20m AAV. I never read what Teixeira asked for.

 

The only way that I agree with you is if I know that the Red Sox turned down the price that the Yankees paid him. If he took "less" to go to the Yankees then I will have every reason to think that Teixeira shot very high. I also have no reason to believe that Boras didn't have the idea that the Yankees could be involved.[

I'm not asking you to agree with me. We have both stated our opinions and neither one of us knows what occurred during the negotiations, so neither of us can claim that our opinion is correct.

 

Was any reliable FO personnel quoted? If not, neither of us knows what either side asked for or offered. If the Red Sox were willing to offer more than $20m AAV, then they should have made that offer before they left the room. If they were willing to offer more but didn't, it makes me more inclined to think that they botched things. When you have exclusive access, you don't give that up and walk away when you have not made your final offer. You can't depend on scum like Boras to get back to you if the guy gets another offer. He got another offer, and the Sox were never asked to counter. The Yankees closed.

In sports, when you are negotiating any deal, the price of the player directly correlates to his value. Players' values are WINS vs. COST.

 

I know you don't care about overall cost, but to me that says a lot about how much you understand about business. You oscillate between "Any good businessman completes the deal" and "I'm a fan, I deserve for them to overpay. They have my money and a lot of money, so they should spare no expense and not care how much money they have in the end."

 

See what I'm saying? You can't both espouse the tenants of sound business and demand that they not pay attention to how much things cost.

I don't care about it, because it's not my business, but I understand it and can debate it. I have not argued in this thread that they should have blown away the market to get Tex, so I don't know why you arguing about value. Neither of us knows what was offered or proposed, so how can you analyze value here? You are way off topic with the value argument.

 

That's not what most people are saying. Most people are saying that without knowing the price he demanded when Henry was at his house' date=' it is impossible to know what happened and therefore whether the result was reasonable or not.[/quote]Several people have taken the position that based on Tex's statements that he had no intention of signing with the Sox. Those people can't have it both ways. They can't whine that we get outbid, and if $ is not the issue, they can't whine that the player didn't want to play for us. With that tandem of excuses, no FO would ever have accountability.

 

You fly to assumptions about Henry's negotiation skill and the cheapness of the FO instead of offering the benefit of the doubt. To make matters worse' date=' Boras is the guy you're siding with.[/quote']I made no assertions about cheapness. Those are words and thoughts that you are attributing to me. How could the Red Sox be cheap and spend $70 million on Drew, $102 million on Dice K (yuk), and $39 million on Lugo ? I am criticizing their negotiation technique with Tex, nothing more. You are going off on tangents, making erroneous conclusions about my unexpressed thoughts and stating them as fact. Please, let's argue about what we post, not about what you think I mean. I'm usually pretty clear about how I feel.

 

The reason you cite for siding with Boras actually has to do with the Red Sox unwillingness to pay other players' date=' all of whom are only arguably worth what you propose the Sox pay them.[/quote']That's not what I did. I gave another instance of a poor negotiation by the FO. The slam was at their negotiating failure. I was not making a blanket accusation of cheapness.

 

If you don't care about costs overall' date=' then how can you know that $ wasn't the issue? What is $10m worth? What exactly should John Henry spend to field a winning team? [/quote']Is this rhetorical, because it is far afield from what I have been arguing.

 

So you would rather have had Abreu than JD Drew over the past 3 seasons?

I never said that. They wanted and needed Abreu at the time, otherwise why were they pursuing him. They left the table and the Yankees landed a pretty good player and the Sox had trash in RF for the remainder of the 2006 season. They made up for that mistake with $70 million and Drew. That doesn't mean that they didn't blow the Abreu negotiation. Subsequent successes don't erase past failures. Hopefully, their successes are in part due to learning from past mistakes.

[yankees228]

People have a knee-jerk reaction to Boras- that he is a scum-sucking liar who cannot be trusted. If I were sitting on the opposite end the table negotiating with him' date=' I wouldn't trust a word out of his mouth. But here's the thing with his latest statement, the Red Sox FO knows if it is a lie or not, because they were there. Now, although Boras is scum, he's not an idiot. The Red Sox are one of the top organizations in sports and we have signed many of his clients. Don't you think he wants the Red Sox to keep bidding on and signing his clients? What would he have to gain by telling such a lie? Nothing. He'd just be pissing off a big fish. Would that make any sense at all?[/quote']

 

This is certainly a legitimate and logical possibility, and one that I didn't think of. Boras, on the surface, has absolutely nothing to gain by lying, and he can only be hurt by it.

[ORS]

People have a knee-jerk reaction to Boras- that he is a scum-sucking liar who cannot be trusted. If I were sitting on the opposite end the table negotiating with him' date=' I wouldn't trust a word out of his mouth. But here's the thing with his latest statement, the Red Sox FO knows if it is a lie or not, because they were there. Now, although Boras is scum, he's not an idiot. The Red Sox are one of the top organizations in sports and we have signed many of his clients. Don't you think he wants the Red Sox to keep bidding on and signing his clients? What would he have to gain by telling such a lie? Nothing. He'd just be pissing off a big fish. Would that make any sense at all?[/quote']

Given the timing of this quote (Holliday entering free agency), the needs of the Sox and Yankees (a LF), and the fact that the sequence will probably play out the same way (meet with Sox first - meet with the big fish last), you don't see how putting this out there benefits Boras and his client? I'd expect you to put two and two together here.

[a700hitter]

Given the timing of this quote (Holliday entering free agency)' date=' the needs of the Sox and Yankees (a LF), and the fact that the sequence will probably play out the same way (meet with Sox first - meet with the big fish last), you don't see how putting this out there benefits Boras and his client? I'd expect you to put two and two together here.[/quote']

How could this possibly benefit Boras with the Red Sox? If anything, if he's lying, it would further damage the relationship. The FO knows if he is lying. They were part of the negotiation. They might even get pissed off enough that they wouldn't deal with him, thus shooting himself in the foot. it's like the old joke. When two people are on an elevator and one of them farts, both know who the culprit is. The Sox FO and Boras were in the room together. If Boras is lying, they will both know it. How could brazenly telling a lie known to the Red Sox FO help Boras or his clients?

[Dipre]

How could this possibly benefit Boras with the Red Sox? If anything' date=' if he's lying, it would further damage the relationship. The FO knows if he is lying. They were part of the negotiation. They might even get pissed off enough that they wouldn't deal with him, thus shooting himself in the foot. it's like the old joke. When two people are on an elevator and one of them farts, both know who the culprit is. The Sox FO and Boras were in the room together. If Boras is lying, they will both know it. How could brazenly telling a lie known to the Red Sox FO help Boras or his clients?[/quote']

 

Because he's not "lying" but telling a convenient truth. They might have submitted an offer the Sox refused to take, but was the offer reasonable?

 

Do you know this?

 

Because you make it sound like you do.

[example1]

How could this possibly benefit Boras with the Red Sox? If anything' date=' if he's lying, it would further damage the relationship. [/quote']

 

Boras is a necessary evil. The Sox may or may not want to deal with him, but the fact remains that he has the best players as clients, and he gets more and more every year. They have to deal with him. They would be in more trouble if he stopped talking to them than he would be if they stopped talking to him.

 

The FO knows if he is lying. They were part of the negotiation.

 

Lying about what? The only thing I've seen is that the Sox made an offer, then Teixeira made an offer, then the negotiations stopped.

 

How could brazenly telling a lie known to the Red Sox FO help Boras or his clients?

 

At most he would be lying by saying something like "my client made a reasonable offer for his services and the Red Sox declined". Reasonable in this case is totally subjective, and when we know the subject this well (Boras), I think we know what we can predict.

 

You have seen the way Boras operates, right?

[a700hitter]

Because he's not "lying" but telling a convenient truth. They might have submitted an offer the Sox refused to take, but was the offer reasonable?

 

Do you know this?

 

Because you make it sound like you do.

Both Boras and the FO know what that offer was and whether or not it was made in good faith. If the offer was outlandish, why bring it up and rub John Henry's face in it at this time of year. How would that benefit him?

[Dipre]

Both Boras and the FO know what that offer was and whether or not it was made in good faith. If the offer was outlandish' date=' why bring it up and rub John Henry's face in it at this time of year. How would that benefit him?[/quote']

 

Who needs a LF, the Yanks and Sox or Scott Boras?

[a700hitter]

Lying about what? The only thing I've seen is that the Sox made an offer' date=' then Teixeira made an offer, then the negotiations stopped.[/quote']So, then you don't think his statement was a lie? That's all that I have been saying all along. We made an offer and he made an offer and we walked away. So, now we agree on that. I think walking away was a big mistake. You don't. I especially think it was a mistake based on information you posted about hearing that the FO was willing to go higher. They should never have left that room without making their final offer, because they never got the opportunity to make it.

At most he would be lying by saying something like "my client made a reasonable offer for his services and the Red Sox declined". Reasonable in this case is totally subjective, and when we know the subject this well (Boras), I think we know what we can predict.

 

You have seen the way Boras operates, right?

How could deliberately tweaking your negotiating opponent about a past back-stabbing help him in future negotiations. Whether or not he is a necessary evil, that would just be bad business. Boras is not someone who regularly shoots himself in the foot.

[a700hitter]

Who needs a LF' date=' the Yanks and Sox or Scott Boras?[/quote']...and his statement helps him how? Your last post would be stricken from the record as non responsive, counselor.

[jacksonianmarch]

I find it highly unlikely that Boras would come out with that comment if it wasnt reasonable. There is a reason. If his offer was truly outlandish, then I would assume the sox ownership would be quick to "leak" some info to the media about what the actual offer was. The fact that nothing from Boston's brass has been "leaked" seems to indict Henry and the rest. I believe the sox went to 165 mil over 8 yrs. I believe that Boras asked them to go to 8yrs 180mil and the sox balked. This idea comes from the readings of all the speculation and the people in the know. 15 mil was a big enough deal for Boston to walk away.

[jacksonianmarch]

Given the timing of this quote (Holliday entering free agency)' date=' the needs of the Sox and Yankees (a LF), and the fact that the sequence will probably play out the same way (meet with Sox first - meet with the big fish last), you don't see how putting this out there benefits Boras and his client? I'd expect you to put two and two together here.[/quote']

 

It could definitely benefit his client, but it could seriously hurt his client as well. Losing Boston means that they lose the counter offer from NY that invariably will come. We have seen in years past that the Yankee brass is happy when a FA comes to them or doesnt go to the Red Sox. If Boras' comments cause the sox to just go the path of least resistance and lock up Bay early, then he loses a ton of rivalry driven leverage.

[Dipre]

*sigh*

 

Word for word, exactly what i expected Jacko to post.

[jacksonianmarch]

Dispute it. Come on. Go for it

[Dipre]

Dispute it. Come on. Go for it

 

You.Are.Speculating.

[Dipre]

I find it highly unlikely that Boras would come out with that comment if it wasnt reasonable. There is a reason. If his offer was truly outlandish' date=' then[b'] I would assume[/b] the sox ownership would be quick to "leak" some info to the media about what the actual offer was. The fact that nothing from Boston's brass has been "leaked" seems to indict Henry and the rest. I believe the sox went to 165 mil over 8 yrs. I believe that Boras asked them to go to 8yrs 180mil and the sox balked. This idea comes from the readings of all the speculation and the people in the know. 15 mil was a big enough deal for Boston to walk away.

[jacksonianmarch]

As is anyone here. But at least my speculation has some sense to it. If Boras throws Henry and Co under the bus when what really happened was Boras offered a ridiculously outlandish deal, then dont you think there would have been some sort of leaked retort by now? The fact that nobody in the sox FO is condemning his comments is an indictment that maybe Boras is speaking the truth.

[Dipre]

As is anyone here. But at least my speculation has some sense to it. If Boras throws Henry and Co under the bus when what really happened was Boras offered a ridiculously outlandish deal' date=' then dont you think there would have been some sort of leaked retort by now? The fact that nobody in the sox FO is condemning his comments is an indictment that maybe Boras is speaking the truth.[/quote']

 

It makes more sense because you have people "in the know".

 

Ok, i can dig that.

[a700hitter]

No one has yet stated how a lie known to the FO could help Boras with regard to negotiating with Boston.

[Dipre]

No one has yet stated how a lie known to the FO could help Boras with regard to negotiating with Boston.

 

Do you actually think Boras wants to sell Holliday to Boston?

[example1]

If the Red Sox were willing to offer more than $20m AAV' date=' then they should have made that offer before they left the room. [/quote']

 

Here's a piece I quoted here:

 

http://www.talksox.com/forum/talk-sox-forum/11610-teixeira-43.html#post378546

 

It's a great article from Gordon Edes in January

 

from Gordon Edes in January:

 

What Teixeira failed to mention while expressing his gratitude to the Yankees was that the Boston Red Sox had constructed an offer with vesting option years in what would have been a 10-year package for even more money, and that agent Scott Boras had pitched a similar proposal to the Los Angeles Angels late in the process that would have kept him with the team he helped to the playoffs last season.

 

It is commonly understood that Boston made an offer of eight years for about $170 million. What is not widely known is that the Red Sox also had on the table two vesting option years which would have realized Boras’ goal to land a 10-year deal for his client.

 

The total value of the package would have been worth in the neighborhood of $212 million, if the option years vested.

 

According to the article, Teixeira and Boras pushed back to raise it to 23m/yr for 8 years, claiming that the vesting criteria were too high. In other words, they either wanted Teixeira to have the options have to be picked up regardless of his performance (if he's able to DH, they have to pay him $21.25m/yr in the 9th and 10th years of his deal), or they wanted $23m/yr for 8 years, or about 20% of the Sox annual payroll for the next 8 years.

 

That's an enormous contract. Re-reading this article now, I would say that 10 years, 212 million (or 8 years, $170m) are both really good offers.

 

Later in the article:

 

Said Boras: “I’m only going to say this. Mark did not take his best financial offer, in dollars and years.”

 

That offer was made by the Red Sox.

 

 

A700hitter: Subsequent successes don't erase past failures.

 

This is the type of thinking that really seperates us my friend. Subsequent successes don't erase past failures? I think they do, especially when 'failure' can only be defined as not achieving a primary goal. If they hoped to sign Drew to play RF more than Abreu, then wouldn't getting Abreu instead of Drew be a failure? The rest of the OF was covered, and so was DH. It was one or the other. They got the one they wanted. Not a failure at all.

[jacksonianmarch]

ABSOLUTELY. He wants to sell Holliday to Boston enough to perk up Cashman's ears. Any bidding war between Boston and NY causes extreme giddiness for the player

[Dipre]

ABSOLUTELY. He wants to sell Holliday to Boston enough to perk up Cashman's ears. Any bidding war between Boston and NY causes extreme giddiness for the player

 

You just proved my point.

 

Thanks.

 

Think about it, slowly.

[jacksonianmarch]

A contract is not a 10 yr contract if it involves 8 guaranteed yrs and 2 very difficult to vest options. Its an 8 yr contract with 2 option yrs. And think about it. Tex is 29 right now after yr 1. He'd be 36 after yr 8. Do you really think he'd have his options picked up if god forbid, his options didnt vest? Also, players cannot have options vest for performance, only for durability. So it was likely a games played clause, which Tex has no control over. He took the extra 10 million dollars guaranteed because he does not know if he will have an injury problem come the end of his contract. Its a security issue.

[jacksonianmarch]

You just proved my point.

 

Thanks.

 

Think about it, slowly.

 

I did not prove your point at all. Boras, saying what he said, would not win the favor of Boston's ownership if he was spreading lies. Especially when there is another viable option on the table for Boston

[example1]

They should never have left that room without making their final offer' date=' because they never got the opportunity to make it. [/quote']

 

Edes article. $212m over 10 years (with vesting options) $170m over 8 years (no options). Both are $21m+ offers. Huge offers.

[jacksonianmarch]

And he asked them to go up to 8yrs $180 mil and they balked. The point is, Theo, Henry and Co. had the chance to close the deal for something similar to what they were already offering. They walked away. I am not spreading lies here. This seems to be the consensus. I am not saying that the sox should or shouldnt have ponied up, I am just reciting the consensus argument here.

[example1]

A contract is not a 10 yr contract if it involves 8 guaranteed yrs and 2 very difficult to vest options. Its an 8 yr contract with 2 option yrs.

 

I agree, though I would say it is a potential 10 year committment from the team. At his age, that is not a gesture of bad faith, no matter how you want to spin it.

 

He took the extra 10 million dollars guaranteed because he does not know if he will have an injury problem come the end of his contract. Its a security issue.

 

Its a security issue for the team to not give him more than 8 years as well, but they were willing to go that far. Multiple teams were.

 

As Arte Morano said "No player is worth more than $160 million.” In this case the Sox went a full $10m more than another big market team who also stood to lose a lot by losing out on Teixeira.

 

The Yankees don't think twice about paying guys $23m if that's what it takes. Apparently every other team does.