Teixeira and Henry War of Words

[yankees228]

It's relatively unimportant, but considering you're making a big point of the fact that he would be the highest paid non-Yankee ever, I figured I would chime in. A-Rod's first contract, as I'm sure you're aware, but just overlooking, was given to him by the Rangers.

[Dojji]

But that's a difference of semantics. He is after all currently a Yankee. And even if that is true, his current contract was given to him by the Yankees and was a pay raise on Hicks's boondoggle.

[example1]

It's relatively unimportant' date=' but considering you're making a big point of the fact that he would be the highest paid non-Yankee ever, I figured I would chime in. A-Rod's first contract, as I'm sure you're aware, but just overlooking, was given to him by the Rangers.[/quote']

 

This is like deja vu. I forgot to mention that the last time I mentioned A-Rod's contract last winter.

 

You're right. The Yankees finished paying him from that first contract and built him a new one for more money, but it was initially from the Rangers.

 

3rd highest contract of all time, 2nd highest non-Yankee contract.

[yankees228]

But that's a difference of semantics. He is after all currently a Yankee. And even if that is true' date=' his current contract was given to him by the Yankees and was a pay raise on Hicks's boondoggle.[/quote']

 

Right, but what's important is who gave out the initial contract, because that's what we're talking about. Players signing contracts. The Rangers gave A-Rod his 10/252 contract.

 

I noted that it's rather irrelevant, but I felt that it was appropriate to mention it because E1 had mentioned that he would have been the highest paid non-Yankee a couple times.

[jacksonianmarch]

ARod got his contract for a few reason. #1- when he is clicking, he is still a top 5 player in the game, and likely top 3 with Pujols and Mauer. #2- Both Pujols and Mauer will be checking in over the $25 mil per yr mark should they hit the FA market. #3- ARod has the best chance of anyone of taking over Bonds' record, and even though ARod is considered a flake, fraud what-have-you, it is still a lot more palatable to have him as the HR leader than Bonds.

[ORS]

The Yankees have been doing something very effective in the past several years. As rich as they are' date=' they don't want agents running back and forth shopping their offers and potentially driving up the price. They have been making their best and final offer with the understanding that the player signs or the Yankees walk away. They did it with Damon and Teixeira. In both cases, the Red Sox still had their best offer in the briefcase, and that's where it stayed. Many will argue that it was good to let Damon walk, but that's Monday morning QBing. The Red Sox were blind-sided at the time. The fact that it worked out the way it did and damon can't play CF anymore is irrelevant. BTW, it didn't work out too bad for the Yankees. Damon was an integral piece of the 2009 Championship team.[/quote']

Again, you are giving them credit for something that is unique to their position as the richest team in baseball. No other team can effectively employ that ultimatum because it lacks the force of potentially being the highest offer to be had. I mean, isn't that essentially what the Sox did with Teixeira? And, can you imagine how hard Boras would laugh if the Marlins or Royals sat down with him and one of his clients and tried the same thing? Despite your repeated proclamations of recognizing what the Yankees position affords them in negotiating practice, your comments don't ever seem to reflect these realities.

 

When the Yankees say, "This is our best offer, sign now or we walk", it has to be taken seriously because their budgeting for player salary can afford the most beneficial evaluation of contract value for that player's services. When other teams say it, there's always the Yankees in the background.

 

If you think they deserve credit for taking advantage of this unique leveraging point, I can agree with that, but I can't get behind the notion that they are superior negotiators when they play with a superior set of tools that are unavailable to the other teams.

[a700hitter]

Again, you are giving them credit for something that is unique to their position as the richest team in baseball. No other team can effectively employ that ultimatum because it lacks the force of potentially being the highest offer to be had. I mean, isn't that essentially what the Sox did with Teixeira? And, can you imagine how hard Boras would laugh if the Marlins or Royals sat down with him and one of his clients and tried the same thing? Despite your repeated proclamations of recognizing what the Yankees position affords them in negotiating practice, your comments don't ever seem to reflect these realities.

 

When the Yankees say, "This is our best offer, sign now or we walk", it has to be taken seriously because their budgeting for player salary can afford the most beneficial evaluation of contract value for that player's services. When other teams say it, there's always the Yankees in the background.

 

If you think they deserve credit for taking advantage of this unique leveraging point, I can agree with that, but I can't get behind the notion that they are superior negotiators when they play with a superior set of tools that are unavailable to the other teams.

I think you underestimate the clout that the Red Sox organization has. The Sox are much closer to the Yankees stature than the Royals or Marlins are to the Red Sox. I didn't say that the technique would work for everyone. In fact, my post addressed only the Yankees use of the technique, not the Red Sox and certainly not the Royals or Marlins. I discussed how the Yankees have been effectively employing this technique to keep the cost from spiraling too wildly upward.

 

I do think that the Red Sox could effectively use this technique at times. You mention Teixeira as an example, but apparently from the information out there, the Red Sox were willing to go higher, but walked away before giving the final offer. What they did really was really confounding to me. (I realize that a lot of what is in the press has been distorted along the way, so it's hard to know the true facts). The Sox made an offer. Tex countered. Sox walked away and declared negotiations over in the press. Yet, in stories that came out later, they were willing to increase their offer. If you are going to employ the tactic of making the best and final offer that has to be accepted on the spot, then make the final offer. Don't expect that you will be able to get back to the table with the new offer.

 

Competing with the Yankees for players is challenging, and overall, the FO does a good job. Good negotiation skills and techniques can help close the gap. I think at times they are penny wise and pound foolish. They'll miss out on a good player like Abreu because they wanted the Phillies to eat $2 or 3 million more than the Phillies wanted to, but then they throw $39 million at a useless dog like Lugo and they misjudge the market for Dice K by paying more than 25% more than any other team was willing to bid. The FO is a smart bunch. I think they are good at assessing and learning from there mistakes. While some of us give them a free pass when they screw up, I think they are quite a bit more self critical.

[a700hitter]

It isn't irrelevant, it is very important. You are judging the individual characters and abilities of the people who are sealing the deal. I'm judging their methodology.

 

Why was Damon in a position to be swiped up by the Yankees? Because the Red Sox determined that the only way the length of his contract would be worth it was if he wasn't paid a whole lot. They set a value and stuck to it and they were right.

 

It's not that they lost the opportunity to overpay for Damon; they were never going to overpay for Damon.

If they were willing to adjust their offer upward which they had indicated in the press, then the methodology was flawed. If you take them at their word that they would have moved the original offer up, that means that they had established that he was still a value at a higher price. The fact that they didn't get to communicate that to Damon and potentially retain him was bad methodology.

 

The Monday Morning QBing shows that the value placed on him by the Yankees was too high, but it doesn't verify that the Red Sox properly valued him, because they never got to give him a final offer. The Yankees, with their take-it-or-leave-it approach probably saved the Red Sox from over-valuing him. If they gave him time to go back to the Sox, they would have upped the ante, and using 20-20 hindsight that would have been the wrong decision. You can't give the Sox credit because another team precluded them from making a mistake. Their right decision was merely fortuitous and not the result of good business acumen. Sometimes it's better to be lucky than to be good. The same could be said of the Jose Contreras debacle. The Yankees snatched him from under our noses. He ended up stinking, but that doesn't mean the Red Sox exercised good business judgment. They were looking to give him a hefty contract. The Yankees superior networking and negotiating saved the red Sox from a terrible waste of resources. Both teams had Contreras valued wrong. The Yankees executed their plan better. Contrearas stinking doesn't make the Red Sox the better organization, because they did a bad job of executing an ill-conceived plan for a player that they drastically over-valued.

[jacksonianmarch]

Tex is certainly overpaid, but he definitely was worth the money in yr 1. He and ARod formed quite the formidable duo

[a700hitter]

Tex is certainly overpaid' date=' but he definitely was worth the money in yr 1. He and ARod formed quite the formidable duo[/quote']Stop being a troll and go kill a patient.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Also, I would say the Red Sox did with Matsuzaka.

 

A f***ing blind bid? You're really going to bring that into the picture and pass it as credible evidence?

[Dipre]

Tex is certainly overpaid' date=' but he definitely was worth the money in yr 1. He and ARod formed quite the formidable duo[/quote']

 

How is Teixeira overpaid?

 

He provided a 5.1 WAR and 51.4 RAR. If i ever agreed with fangraph's dollar value for a player (They had him at 23.2 million) it's this time.

 

You keep contradicting yourself just for the sake of being a dick and adding fuel to the fire.

 

Stop it.

[yankees228]

A f***ing blind bid? You're really going to bring that into the picture and pass it as credible evidence?

 

Didn't they have the top bid by a substantial amount, over the second highest? It seems to me that they entered a bid that they knew wouldn't be touched, effectively blowing everyone out of the water.

[jacksonianmarch]

How is Teixeira overpaid?

 

He provided a 5.1 WAR and 51.4 RAR. If i ever agreed with fangraph's dollar value for a player (They had him at 23.2 million) it's this time.

 

You keep contradicting yourself just for the sake of being a dick and adding fuel to the fire.

 

Stop it.

 

You might be the most belligerent poster I have ever seen. And you wonder why everyone fights with you?

 

What I meant was, he was overpaid in the long haul. He wont be worth 23 mil per season every season. He was this yr. He probably wont be when he's 36.

[BoSox21]

Didn't they have the top bid by a substantial amount' date=' over the second highest? It seems to me that they entered a bid that they knew wouldn't be touched, effectively blowing everyone out of the water.[/quote']

 

And if the Yankees knew about the bid, they would've gone higher. Don't try and pretend like they would've let the Sox have him.

[Dipre]

Stop being a troll and go kill a patient.

 

^ At least i'm not a troll.

 

How about that?

[yankees228]

And if the Yankees knew about the bid' date=' they would've gone higher. Don't try and pretend like they would've let the Sox have him.[/quote']

 

We both have absolutely no idea what the Yankees would have done. I'm not the one acting like I know what they're thinking, you are. I agree, this situation is different than bidding for a free agent. But, it could have been the Yankees that offered the bid that would have blown everyone out of the water, but it wasn't. While you can't compare it to signing a free agent, it does show that when the Red Sox want to flex their financial might, they can.

[rician blast]

Yanks...if I am not mistaken:

 

highest paid 1B of all time

highest paid SS of all time

highest paid 3b of all time

highest paid P of all time

highest paid C of all time

 

When they put their line-up on the field, 5/9ths of their players are the highest paid at their position...EVER.

 

Sox never had a chance with Tiexiera if he was going for the biggest contract he could get.

[Paradisecity]

We both have absolutely no idea what the Yankees would have done. I'm not the one acting like I know what they're thinking' date=' you are. I agree, this situation is different than bidding for a free agent. But, it could have been the Yankees that offered the bid that would have blown everyone out of the water, but it wasn't. While you can't compare it to signing a free agent, it does show that when the Red Sox want to flex their financial might, they can.[/quote']

 

 

Or it shows that they seek a return on their investment by tapping a market from which the Yankees were already benefiting.

[yankees228]

Yanks...if I am not mistaken:

 

highest paid 1B of all time

highest paid SS of all time

highest paid 3b of all time

highest paid P of all time

highest paid C of all time

 

When they put their line-up on the field, 5/9ths of their players are the highest paid at their position...EVER.

 

Sox never had a chance with Tiexiera if he was going for the biggest contract he could get.

 

Except, according to what E1 posted, it seems that the contracts were pretty close, with the Red Sox possibly having the highest offer. It seems like Teixeira wanted to go the Yankees, as he has said in the past.

[example1]

If they were willing to adjust their offer upward which they had indicated in the press, then the methodology was flawed. If you take them at their word that they would have moved the original offer up, that means that they had established that he was still a value at a higher price. The fact that they didn't get to communicate that to Damon and potentially retain him was bad methodology.

 

The Monday Morning QBing shows that the value placed on him by the Yankees was too high, but it doesn't verify that the Red Sox properly valued him, because they never got to give him a final offer. The Yankees, with their take-it-or-leave-it approach probably saved the Red Sox from over-valuing him. If they gave him time to go back to the Sox, they would have upped the ante, and using 20-20 hindsight that would have been the wrong decision. You can't give the Sox credit because another team precluded them from making a mistake. Their right decision was merely fortuitous and not the result of good business acumen. Sometimes it's better to be lucky than to be good. The same could be said of the Jose Contreras debacle. The Yankees snatched him from under our noses. He ended up stinking, but that doesn't mean the Red Sox exercised good business judgment. They were looking to give him a hefty contract. The Yankees superior networking and negotiating saved the red Sox from a terrible waste of resources. Both teams had Contreras valued wrong. The Yankees executed their plan better. Contrearas stinking doesn't make the Red Sox the better organization, because they did a bad job of executing an ill-conceived plan for a player that they drastically over-valued.

 

Re: Damon: IIRC, the issue was the number of years. They may have been willing to increase AAV but not years. Their valuation was correct about the biggest flaw with Damon. Give them credit, they are right more often than not.

 

Re: Contreras: that was a formative experience for Theo and one which has shaped the organization. Silver lining.

[example1]

Except' date=' according to what E1 posted, it seems that the contracts were pretty close, with the Red Sox possibly having the highest offer. It seems like Teixeira wanted to go the Yankees, as he has said in the past.[/quote']

 

$2m/yr over 8 years is close yearly, but over 8 years it is a fair amount ($16m). That would be a big chunk of many teams yearly payroll. It is more than anyone on the Red Sox makes every year.

 

And, yes, I maintain--unlike a lot of people here--that his desire to play in NY played a very important role.

[yankees228]

$2m/yr over 8 years is close yearly, but over 8 years it is a fair amount ($16m). That would be a big chunk of many teams yearly payroll. It is more than anyone on the Red Sox makes every year.

 

And, yes, I maintain--unlike a lot of people here--that his desire to play in NY played a very important role.

 

Right, but, as you said, the Red Sox were offering the additional two years in the form of vested options. It would have taken the contract to ten years (what Boras was initially seeking), and it would have pushed the possible total value of the contract over 200 million dollars. Based on that fact, I would say the two offers were pretty comparable.

[BoSox21]

We both have absolutely no idea what the Yankees would have done. I'm not the one acting like I know what they're thinking' date=' you are. I agree, this situation is different than bidding for a free agent. But, it could have been the Yankees that offered the bid that would have blown everyone out of the water, but it wasn't. While you can't compare it to signing a free agent, it does show that when the Red Sox want to flex their financial might, they can.[/quote']

 

Name one player who the Sox and Yankees have both chased, with financial offers being out in the open, that the Sox have signed.

[example1]

Right' date=' but, as you said, the Red Sox were offering the additional two years in the form of vested options. It would have taken the contract to ten years (what Boras was initially seeking), and it would have pushed the possible total value of the contract over 200 million dollars. Based on that fact, I would say the two offers were pretty comparable.[/quote']

 

I agree. I would say the offers were comparable. In fact, Boras is quoted as saying that Teixeira left a deal with more money and years on the table. That's why I don't:

 

a) Freak out that the Red Sox are some how negotiations challenged or

Fear that the Red Sox will become an obsolete, uncompetitive team in the future.

 

I just need to prepare for what this site will look like when/if the Red Sox don't feel it is worth it to pay Matt Holliday $21m or Jason Bay $18m per year and they don't make any significant signings this offseason. I think there's a very good chance for that to happen and it will be seen as a referendum on the FO--even though they will likely win 95 and make the playoffs again next year.

[yankees228]

Name one player who the Sox and Yankees have both chased' date=' with financial offers being out in the open, that the Sox have signed.[/quote']

 

When did I ever claim there was one? However, while a large part of it is money, there are guys (like Teixeira, in my opinion) who would prefer, all things being equal, to be Yankees.

[yankees228]

I agree. I would say the offers were comparable. In fact, Boras is quoted as saying that Teixeira left a deal with more money and years on the table. That's why I don't:

 

a) Freak out that the Red Sox are some how negotiations challenged or

Fear that the Red Sox will become an obsolete, uncompetitive team in the future.

 

I just need to prepare for what this site will look like when/if the Red Sox don't feel it is worth it to pay Matt Holliday $21m or Jason Bay $18m per year and they don't make any significant signings this offseason. I think there's a very good chance for that to happen and it will be seen as a referendum on the FO--even though they will likely win 95 and make the playoffs again next year.

 

Fair enough. I find that to be a very fair view on thing as well. However, I don't think that even the most pessimistic Red Sox fans feel that B is a realistic possibility.

[example1]

Fair enough. I find that to be a very fair view on thing as well. However' date=' I don't think that even the most pessimistic Red Sox fans feel that B is a realistic possibility.[/quote']

 

They can if they only see this team as capable of improving through FA.

 

Some people see no way of putting faith in the farm system, resorting again and again to claims that we don't know and so there is no right to speculate... whereas, spending $18m too much over a longterm contract is something that the team should do any time there is a player who has had even moderate success in the past... because the Red Sox don't spend every dollar they possibly could at every possible turn.

 

Hyperbole? Maybe a little, tiny bit. But it feels that way around here sometimes.

[yankees228]

They can if they only see this team as capable of improving through FA.

 

Some people see no way of putting faith in the farm system, resorting again and again to claims that we don't know and so there is no right to speculate... whereas, spending $18m too much over a longterm contract is something that the team should do any time there is a player who has had even moderate success in the past... because the Red Sox don't spend every dollar they possibly could at every possible turn.

 

Hyperbole? Maybe a little, tiny bit. But it feels that way around here sometimes.

 

Well, I can't give you an opinion from a Red Sox fans point of view. However, as I've said many times on this board, I have a ton of respect for the Red Sox, for a variety of different reasons. It's one of the main factors that plays into why I don't have this hatred for the Red Sox like many Yankee fans do. Obviously I hope they lose every time they play, because it would help the Yankees.

 

Anyway, I think way too highly of them as an organization to even think for a second that they're going to fall out of contention. I expect them and the Yankees to be the class of the American League, year in and year out.