Teixeira and Henry War of Words

[Dipre]

I did not prove your point at all. Boras' date=' saying what he said, would not win the favor of Boston's ownership if he was spreading lies. Especially when there is another viable option on the table for Boston[/quote']

 

Flew right over your head. Understandable.

 

He's not "spreading lies". They made an offer the ownership chose not to accept, the amount, however, is undisclosed, it might have been for the years guaranteed, or for more money, and you don't know this, stop making it seem like you do. So all he's doing is shouting out to the Sox FO that this is another deal "they could seal within the right circumstances", which would immediately send Cashman's panties in a bunch as well.

[Dipre]

And he asked them to go up to 8yrs $180 mil and they balked. The point is' date=' Theo, Henry and Co. had the chance to close the deal for something similar to what they were already offering. They walked away. I am not spreading lies here. This seems to be the consensus. I am not saying that the sox should or shouldnt have ponied up, I am just reciting the consensus argument here.[/quote']

 

You say this like you know.

 

Hilarious.

[a700hitter]

Do you actually think Boras wants to sell Holliday to Boston?

Nonresponsive.

[Dipre]

Nonresponsive.

 

Let me rephrase it.

 

Where do you think Boras could get the most money for Holliday?

[jacksonianmarch]

Flew right over your head. Understandable.

 

He's not "spreading lies". They made an offer the ownership chose not to accept, the amount, however, is undisclosed, it might have been for the years guaranteed, or for more money, and you don't know this, stop making it seem like you do. So all he's doing is shouting out to the Sox FO that this is another deal "they could seal within the right circumstances", which would immediately send Cashman's panties in a bunch as well.

 

But by there being no response from Boston's FO, it makes it sound like Boras is being genuine. If he had an outlandish offer and is running a smear campaign, then why wouldnt Theo, Henry or an unidentified leak deny his claims?

[Dipre]

But by there being no response from Boston's FO' date=' it makes it sound like Boras is being genuine. If he had an outlandish offer and is running a smear campaign, then why wouldnt Theo, Henry or an unidentified leak deny his claims?[/quote']

 

Well let's wait.

 

How long has it been since the claim, a couple hours, a day?

[yankees228]

Well let's wait.

 

How long has it been since the claim, a couple hours, a day?

 

I'm also curious to see if the Red Sox respond. It is possible though, where it's a lie or not, that the Red Sox front office simply won't respond because they want to avoid getting into a war of words with Boras. If they choose not to respond, I'm not sure how much we can read into it.

[Dipre]

I'm also curious to see if the Red Sox respond. It is possible though' date=' where it's a lie or not, that the Red Sox front office simply won't respond because they want to avoid getting into a war of words with Boras. If they choose not to respond, I'm not sure how much we can read into it.[/quote']

 

Well.

 

Someone "in the know" told Jacko they wouldn't respond because Boras is right.

 

So he's probably right.

[ORS]

Do you guys (a700 and Jacko) really not see how this statement applies leverage in future negotiations with Boston? He's putting them on the hot seat when he sits down with them and Holliday. The same conditions will apply. They'll tell Boston what it will take to strike a deal with the Yankees looming in the background. He's reminding them how that scenario played out last time.

 

No, I'm not suggesting he's lying about them proposing an amount that would have settled a deal. Like example, I do question the definition of reasonable in Boras land. As for the question about why didn't the FO "leak" information the audacity of the demand (if it was an unreasonable offer), I do recall the FO stating they believed negotiations were over when the demands were communicated. To me, that communicates just as much and leaves as much to interpretation as Boras' "reasonable". All this throwing around of numbers is self-serving IMO. Whatever the level was, this latest statement is a threat to the Boston FO that they need to jump to the level Boras and Holliday ask for if they want to land him. They are playing a game of chicken, one with little to no risk for them because the Yankee offer will top Boston's if they don't jump.

[Dipre]

Flew right over your head. Understandable.

 

He's not "spreading lies". They made an offer the ownership chose not to accept, the amount, however, is undisclosed, it might have been for the years guaranteed, or for more money, and you don't know this, stop making it seem like you do. So all he's doing is shouting out to the Sox FO that this is another deal "they could seal within the right circumstances", which would immediately send Cashman's panties in a bunch as well.

 

Do you guys (a700 and Jacko) really not see how this statement applies leverage in future negotiations with Boston? He's putting them on the hot seat when he sits down with them and Holliday. The same conditions will apply. They'll tell Boston what it will take to strike a deal with the Yankees looming in the background. He's reminding them how that scenario played out last time.

 

No, I'm not suggesting he's lying about them proposing an amount that would have settled a deal. Like example, I do question the definition of reasonable in Boras land. As for the question about why didn't the FO "leak" information the audacity of the demand (if it was an unreasonable offer), I do recall the FO stating they believed negotiations were over when the demands were communicated. To me, that communicates just as much and leaves as much to interpretation as Boras' "reasonable". All this throwing around of numbers is self-serving IMO. Whatever the level was, this latest statement is a threat to the Boston FO that they need to jump to the level Boras and Holliday ask for if they want to land him. They are playing a game of chicken, one with little to no risk for them because the Yankee offer will top Boston's if they don't jump.

 

This and this.

[Gom]

*sigh*

 

Word for word, exactly what i expected Jacko to post.

 

Please explain your point.

[a700hitter]

This is the type of thinking that really seperates us my friend. Subsequent successes don't erase past failures? I think they do' date=' especially when 'failure' can only be defined as not achieving a primary goal. If they hoped to sign Drew to play RF more than Abreu, then wouldn't getting Abreu instead of Drew be a failure? The rest of the OF was covered, and so was DH. It was one or the other. They got the one they wanted. Not a failure at all.[/quote']Then why attempt to get Abreu if the plan was to get Drew all along? In that case, under your reasoning, a successful Abreu negotiation would have caused a subsequent failure by precluding them from getting Drew. By failing with Abreu, they succeeded as planned with Drew? Why risk succeeding with Abreu and messing up the master plan to get Drew? BTW Drew was yet to opt out of his contract, so how was he part of the plan at that time?. Your reasoning is a little preposterous. They failed in attempt to get Abreu. That stands on its own. It wasn't part of a plan to get Drew.

[a700hitter]

Do you guys (a700 and Jacko) really not see how this statement applies leverage in future negotiations with Boston? He's putting them on the hot seat when he sits down with them and Holliday. The same conditions will apply. They'll tell Boston what it will take to strike a deal with the Yankees looming in the background. He's reminding them how that scenario played out last time.

 

No, I'm not suggesting he's lying about them proposing an amount that would have settled a deal. Like example, I do question the definition of reasonable in Boras land. As for the question about why didn't the FO "leak" information the audacity of the demand (if it was an unreasonable offer), I do recall the FO stating they believed negotiations were over when the demands were communicated. To me, that communicates just as much and leaves as much to interpretation as Boras' "reasonable". All this throwing around of numbers is self-serving IMO. Whatever the level was, this latest statement is a threat to the Boston FO that they need to jump to the level Boras and Holliday ask for if they want to land him. They are playing a game of chicken, one with little to no risk for them because the Yankee offer will top Boston's if they don't jump.

Wow, the FO must really be stupid if Boras has to keep reminding them of how he screwed them over. If they are that stupid, no amount of leverage would work.

[a700hitter]

Later in the article:

 

Said Boras: “I’m only going to say this. Mark did not take his best financial offer, in dollars and years.”

 

That offer was made by the Red Sox.

So, it wasn't the money? Make up your mind. Was it the money or wasn't it? If it wasn't the money, I am leaning more towards it being a really bad sales job by the FO.

[RedSox2737]

i'd be more upset about being called a 70 -year -old if i were 59............anyway.....anyone ever notice that teixeira looks like he just smelled a fart when he's at bat?....he seems like a big baby

[example1]

Then why attempt to get Abreu if the plan was to get Drew all along? In that case' date=' under your reasoning, a successful Abreu negotiation would have caused a subsequent failure by precluding them from getting Drew. By failing with Abreu, they succeeded as planned with Drew? Why risk succeeding with Abreu and messing up the master plan to get Drew? BTW Drew was yet to opt out of his contract, so how was he part of the plan at that time?. Your reasoning is a little preposterous. They failed in attempt to get Abreu. That stands on its own. It wasn't part of a plan to get Drew.[/quote']

 

Abreu would be worth it to get if the acquisition price (either in players or Philly-paid salary) mitigated it.

 

That is why salary is always important in discussions about player acquisitions. Who is more valuable? Abreu at 17m or Drew at 14? Drew.

 

Who is more valuable? Abreu for free or Drew for 14m? Abreu for free.

 

Value is relative. Between full priced Abreu in 2006 and Drew as FA in 2007, Drew was both the better player and better value.

[ORS]

Wow' date=' the FO must really be stupid if Boras has to keep reminding them of how he screwed them over. If they are that stupid, no amount of leverage would work.[/quote']

This adds little to the discussion.

 

I think the important part is the fact that this reminder was made publically. He's making his case for Holliday in the court of public opinion, as he regularly does.

[yankees228]

Here's a piece I quoted here:

 

http://www.talksox.com/forum/talk-sox-forum/11610-teixeira-43.html#post378546

 

It's a great article from Gordon Edes in January

 

 

 

 

 

According to the article, Teixeira and Boras pushed back to raise it to 23m/yr for 8 years, claiming that the vesting criteria were too high. In other words, they either wanted Teixeira to have the options have to be picked up regardless of his performance (if he's able to DH, they have to pay him $21.25m/yr in the 9th and 10th years of his deal), or they wanted $23m/yr for 8 years, or about 20% of the Sox annual payroll for the next 8 years.

 

That's an enormous contract. Re-reading this article now, I would say that 10 years, 212 million (or 8 years, $170m) are both really good offers.

 

Later in the article:

 

 

 

That offer was made by the Red Sox.

 

 

 

 

This is the type of thinking that really seperates us my friend. Subsequent successes don't erase past failures? I think they do, especially when 'failure' can only be defined as not achieving a primary goal. If they hoped to sign Drew to play RF more than Abreu, then wouldn't getting Abreu instead of Drew be a failure? The rest of the OF was covered, and so was DH. It was one or the other. They got the one they wanted. Not a failure at all.

 

So what are you saying here? That Teixeira spurned his best offer, and went to the Yankees, because he wanted to be a Yankee? I'm not inferring anything, just looking for clarification.

[a700hitter]

Abreu would be worth it to get if the acquisition price (either in players or Philly-paid salary) mitigated it.

 

That is why salary is always important in discussions about player acquisitions. Who is more valuable? Abreu at 17m or Drew at 14? Drew.

 

Who is more valuable? Abreu for free or Drew for 14m? Abreu for free.

 

Value is relative. Between full priced Abreu in 2006 and Drew as FA in 2007, Drew was both the better player and better value.

Drew was still under contract, and my recollection is that the Sox (in the Abreu negotiation) also had not made their final offer when they walked away from the table. That's just a bad way to negotiate when your chief rival has the same need as you.

[example1]

So what are you saying here? That Teixeira spurned his best offer' date=' and went to the Yankees, because he wanted to be a Yankee? I'm not inferring anything, just looking for clarification.[/quote']

 

No. I'm actually just highlighting the article and some of the concrete numbers Edes threw out (into a discussion where a700hitter is not positing any numbers to make the discussion tangible).

 

There were clearly multiple competing offers. The Red Sox offered the one with the most total money and most years, if the vesting options were included. Teixeira and Boras didn't like the vesting options and asked for 23m instead of the 21.25 that the Sox were offering.

 

The money difference may not seem like a big deal to some people, but I'm assuming that the Red Sox going to $21.25m already represents a stretch. Given that it is $7m/yr more than they pay their current highest paid player, and almost the equal of Ortiz + Beckett's salaries, I'd say it represents a stretch.

 

It is almost 1/5th of their entire payroll, and would be such for the next 8 years. To then ask for another $2m/yr on top of that generous offer--another 10%--isn't a small request in my world, and apparently it wasn't in Henry's either.

[Dipre]

Please explain your point.

 

Flew right over your head. Understandable.

 

He's not "spreading lies". They made an offer the ownership chose not to accept, the amount, however, is undisclosed, it might have been for the years guaranteed, or for more money, and you don't know this, stop making it seem like you do. So all he's doing is shouting out to the Sox FO that this is another deal "they could seal within the right circumstances", which would immediately send Cashman's panties in a bunch as well.

 

You cannot read can you?

[example1]

Drew was still under contract' date=' and my recollection is that the Sox (in the Abreu negotiation) also had not made their final offer when they walked away from the table. That's just a bad way to negotiate when your chief rival has the same need as you.[/quote']

 

Like the Teixeira discussion, this one is getting old.

 

Abreu simply wasn't a very good player. The Red Sox kicked the tires on Abreu and asked how much he cost. Maybe they left their best offer off the table. Perhaps they did the same thing with Damon and Pedro before him, and maybe they did the same thing with Teixeira (though I doubt it). In any case, the reason they don't just go balls-to-the-wall to get these guys is because no matter how good a player is, he has a value. A tangible, monetary value, based on the current circumstances of the team and their current composition.

 

The team didn't need Bobby Abreu. Again, he simply wasn't that great a player and that isn't impacted by the fact that the Yankees needed a RF too. It is indifferent to that fact.

[a700hitter]

This adds little to the discussion.

 

I think the important part is the fact that this reminder was made publically. He's making his case for Holliday in the court of public opinion, as he regularly does.

If it is a lie or gross exaggeration, the Red Sox could plant a story refuting Boras statement by simply making a phone call. I have more regard for the Red Sox FO than to think they would throw out sound business judgment to bow to the court of public opinion.

[a700hitter]

So what are you saying here? That Teixeira spurned his best offer' date=' and went to the Yankees, because he wanted to be a Yankee? I'm not inferring anything, just looking for clarification.[/quote']If the Red Sox made the best financial offer as Example posted, then the FO really botched things with Teixeira. If you are offering more money than your competitor, but can't convince the player to take it, you clearly did something wrong.

[a700hitter]

Like the Teixeira discussion, this one is getting old.

 

Abreu simply wasn't a very good player. The Red Sox kicked the tires on Abreu and asked how much he cost. Maybe they left their best offer off the table. Perhaps they did the same thing with Damon and Pedro before him, and maybe they did the same thing with Teixeira (though I doubt it). In any case, the reason they don't just go balls-to-the-wall to get these guys is because no matter how good a player is, he has a value. A tangible, monetary value, based on the current circumstances of the team and their current composition.

 

The team didn't need Bobby Abreu. Again, he simply wasn't that great a player and that isn't impacted by the fact that the Yankees needed a RF too. It is indifferent to that fact.

The Red Sox should stop pursuing players that don't fit into their plans. Sounds like a big waste of everyones time.

[yankees228]

No. I'm actually just highlighting the article and some of the concrete numbers Edes threw out (into a discussion where a700hitter is not positing any numbers to make the discussion tangible).

 

There were clearly multiple competing offers. The Red Sox offered the one with the most total money and most years, if the vesting options were included. Teixeira and Boras didn't like the vesting options and asked for 23m instead of the 21.25 that the Sox were offering.

 

The money difference may not seem like a big deal to some people, but I'm assuming that the Red Sox going to $21.25m already represents a stretch. Given that it is $7m/yr more than they pay their current highest paid player, and almost the equal of Ortiz + Beckett's salaries, I'd say it represents a stretch.

 

It is almost 1/5th of their entire payroll, and would be such for the next 8 years. To then ask for another $2m/yr on top of that generous offer--another 10%--isn't a small request in my world, and apparently it wasn't in Henry's either.

 

So why do you think Teixeira choose to sign with the Yankees, instead of the Red Sox?

[BoSox21]

So why do you think Teixeira choose to sign with the Yankees' date=' instead of the Red Sox?[/quote']

 

He wanted to keep getting Leigh-ed

[example1]

So why do you think Teixeira choose to sign with the Yankees' date=' instead of the Red Sox?[/quote']

 

Possibly the same reason that, if presented with hundreds of millions of dollars either way, I would sign with the Red Sox over the Yankees.

 

It could be that he liked New York better. Or that by going to NY the pressure would be off of him because of A-Rod and CC and Jeter and all the other enormous-money guys.

 

There's plenty of reasons we could suppose there.

 

A700 is wrong though, it isn't some sign of really botched negotiations if a player likes one team over another.

 

Do you think that if player who prefers playing football for Florida rather than Alabama that Alabama has necessarily done something wrong in the recruitment process? I don't.

[a700hitter]

Possibly the same reason that, if presented with hundreds of millions of dollars either way, I would sign with the Red Sox over the Yankees.

 

It could be that he liked New York better. Or that by going to NY the pressure would be off of him because of A-Rod and CC and Jeter and all the other enormous-money guys.

 

There's plenty of reasons we could suppose there.

 

A700 is wrong though, it isn't some sign of really botched negotiations if a player likes one team over another.

 

Do you think that if player who prefers playing football for Florida rather than Alabama that Alabama has necessarily done something wrong in the recruitment process? I don't.

So, if the Yankees outbid us, ... not the FO's fault, and if we outbid the Yankees but the player signs with the Yankees, ... not the FO's fault. So much for accountability.

[ORS]

If it is a lie or gross exaggeration' date=' the Red Sox could plant a story refuting Boras statement by simply making a phone call. I have more regard for the Red Sox FO than to think they would throw out sound business judgment to bow to the court of public opinion.[/quote']

While I agree with what you said, I suspect you don't really mean it. You were ready to throw them under the bus for stupidity in the throw away comment you made to my previous post.

 

That said, I do agree. They are unlikely to bow to the court of public opinion. That said, Boras has needled future negotiating partners in the public forum for years, and I don't see why we need to look beyond it as part of his negotiating tactic. Maybe it doesn't work most of the time, which is what I suspect is the case, but it probably has paid off at one time or another, which just adds to the benefit for Boras. It's not like there's much at risk here for him.