Yankees Stifle another young arm: Hughes to the pen

[jacksonianmarch]

just reported on WFAN. Wang is starting tomorrow. Not sure what this means since CC was due to start tomorrow.

[Dipre]

Props to the Yankee FO for making the right decision.

[yankees228]

My concern, for the moment, centers around why CC Sabathia is not starting tomorrow.

[yankees228]

Apparently CC is starting Friday. If this is the case then that's fine. I'm just curious about why they wouldn't just slide Wang in on Friday, when Hughes is scheduled to pitch.

[a700hitter]

just reported on WFAN. Wang is starting tomorrow. Not sure what this means since CC was due to start tomorrow.

The Red Sox should see Wang next week. Oh, goodie, goodie, goodie!!!! Papi wil finally bust out of his slump. He has about 8 miles of Homers against Wang.

[jacksonianmarch]

I dont think you know yet. But Papi sucks this yr

[Dipre]

I dont think you know yet. But Papi sucks this yr

 

I don't think you know yet, but the only player sucking worse than Papi this year is Wang.

[a700hitter]

I dont think you know yet. But Papi sucks this yr

So does Wang, and Papi used to hit Wang when he was good. This is the perfect medicine for Ortiz's bat.

[VA Sox Fan]

There was talk of sending Joba back to the pen, probably not good as he is currently pitching well.

 

Did Wang have a miracle recovery? Surprised by the move. Hughes has been solid.

 

Pitching and defense guys and gals.....pitching and defense.....

[Cocos Disciples]

There was talk of sending Joba back to the pen, probably not good as he is currently pitching well.

 

Did Wang have a miracle recovery? Surprised by the move. Hughes has been solid.

 

Pitching and defense guys and gals.....pitching and defense.....

 

I definitely wouldn't send Joba to the bullpen. At this point he's shown he can get guys out a 3rd, even 4th time around the order. If I'm the Yankees, I keep him as a starter for the long haul and try to trade for a setup man.

[RedRuffing15]

Well Wang has been pitching well when he was getting in. The only issue for me is he was pitching late in games we had respectable leads in, so the game in his hands may get away from him. It is interesting because their setting it up that Wang has one start vs the Leading Home Run Rangers before opening the series vs the Sox and then ending the series vs the Mets, not exactly easy road back. It could be a strength builder, if he can survive it, he's truly good to go, yet I see it as a showing of trust in our bats and bullpen if he shits the bed again.

It's not a decision you can really get curious of upset about, Wang is a starter and has been one of our best the past few years so you can't erase all trust that you have for him just because your hitting a tough streak of games, and it's always better to have him get comfortable now as opposed to later in the season when the losses truly hurt us.

 

For the Sox fans, do you think that they'll move Ortiz up in the lineup vs Wang given possible past success?

[a700hitter]

For the Sox fans' date=' do you think that they'll move Ortiz up in the lineup vs Wang given possible past success?[/quote']

No, I think he'll stay in the 6th hole until he starts hitting.

[Gom]

You guys are talking about a pitcher who had little arm strength and was coming off a major foot injury. He'll be fine.

 

Jacko...exactly what young arm have the Yankees stifled before?

[diony]

Good question.

[jacksonianmarch]

You guys are talking about a pitcher who had little arm strength and was coming off a major foot injury. He'll be fine.

 

Jacko...exactly what young arm have the Yankees stifled before?

 

Chamberlain being the most recent example. They completely screwed him up last yr by starting him in the bullpen. But I rescind my comments on the yankees management for now. I see why they are keeping Hughes around. Wang is on a 75-80 pitch count. Now, when he's on, 80 pitches typically got him through 6 innings. But I do not expect him to be THAT good against such a good offense. So by keeping Hughes around for 2 weeks or so, we get a built in piggy back until Wang gets his pitch count up while limiting Hughes innings and getting him more big league innings. Once/If Wang gets back to speed and gets to the 100 pitch mark, I expect Hughes to be demoted.

 

On a separate note, I am very happy with what we saw of Hughes. He really picked it up over his last few starts and showed the kind of swing and miss stuff that a former top pitching prospect should show. I am excited to see what he can do over a full yr after he gets a bit more work in on his new mechanics and pitches. If he gets through 150 inning unscathed this yr, then our rotation for next yr will be nice.

[Gom]

Jacko...they were on a innings limit last year with Chamberlain. Not enough to make him a starter, too much to keep him in the pen. They did the best they could with him, and he's probably going back to the pen in September anyways.

 

I am a full believer in putting your best arms at the major league level. I see no reason why pitchers can't prove themselves first in the bullpen. Look at Santana and Halliday. They worked out pretty well moving from the pen to the rotation.

[jacksonianmarch]

Jacko...they were on a innings limit last year with Chamberlain. Not enough to make him a starter, too much to keep him in the pen. They did the best they could with him, and he's probably going back to the pen in September anyways.

 

I am a full believer in putting your best arms at the major league level. I see no reason why pitchers can't prove themselves first in the bullpen. Look at Santana and Halliday. They worked out pretty well moving from the pen to the rotation.

 

They certainly could have started Joba in the rotation and then diverted as his innings cap came about. Also, Halladay is not a good example. Halladay was a 1st round pick, but his production prior to getting called up to the bigs was marginal to say the least. His production prior to callup would have warranted a bullpen spot. Something clicked in 01, after he had a 10+ ERA in 67 innings in 2000 and split the rotation and pen duties in 1999. The bullpen did nothing but screw with him. As for Johan, he is very similar. He was awful in the minor leagues, enough so to be placed in the Rule V. It took 4 yrs of coaching, frequent demotions and work on locating his changeup before he became a good starter. Neither of those guys had the minor league pedigree of Hughes and Chamberlain and both of them were given chance after chance to learn the ropes at the big league level because their teams were awful. It paid off in the end, but in NY, it doesnt work that way. The only way they will get better is to pitch more, not less. And by moving Hughes to AAA, he will be afforded that necessity.

[Gom]

Nearly 30% of the top pitchers in baseball started off in the pen, Jacko.

 

Halliday isn't a good example because he proves you wrong. Hughes has a terrible ERA. Let him refine his stuff in the pen against better players, then scrubs in the minors.

[TheKilo]

Nearly 30% of the top pitchers in baseball started off in the pen, Jacko.

 

 

?

[Gom]

Go through the top 20 pitchers pretty much at any time during the last two or three seasons. You'll see that nearly 30% of them spent significant time in the bullpen sometime in their career or started out in the pen. I've shown this before.

 

It's been the way baseball has been done for nearly 100 years. Jacko knows differently though.

[Mr Crunchy]

Why they have hughes in the minors is a mystery because he has been effective and is their golden boy even more so than Joba.I dont think that keeping a lid on a guy with an innings count is a bad thing,especially with the money they invest in these prospects but it got a bit ridiculous with Joba,especially under Torre...

If they can do it then let em air it out,

confidence is part of the equation and the back and forth trips to the minors are not exactly confidence boosters.

just dont do what the Phillies have done over the years, they've burnt more arms out by over use than any other franchise and they had that reputation since the 80s.

[TheKilo]

Go through the top 20 pitchers pretty much at any time during the last two or three seasons. You'll see that nearly 30% of them spent significant time in the bullpen sometime in their career or started out in the pen. I've shown this before.

 

It's been the way baseball has been done for nearly 100 years. Jacko knows differently though.

 

I'm at work and can't produce a list but would love to see one.

[jacksonianmarch]

Nearly 30% of the top pitchers in baseball started off in the pen, Jacko.

 

Halliday isn't a good example because he proves you wrong. Hughes has a terrible ERA. Let him refine his stuff in the pen against better players, then scrubs in the minors.

 

so 70% of the good ones dont start out in the pen. So, therefore, the majority of the time, the better pitchers never get converted to the pen. Gotcha. Then why are you advocating it?

[Gom]

Here is a list of the top 20 active ERA leaders [not counting relievers]. The ones who either started in the pen or spent significant time as a reliever are starred [***].

 

1. Pedro Martinez (37) 2.9141 R ***

2. Johan Santana (30) 3.0650 L ***

3. Roy Oswalt (31) 3.1768 R ***

4. John Smoltz (42) 3.2580 R ***

5. Brandon Webb (30) 3.2667 R

6. Randy Johnson (45) 3.2865 L ***

6. Jake Peavy (28) 3.2950 R

8. Roy Halladay (32) 3.4793 R ***

8. Tim Hudson (33) 3.4843 R

10. Carlos Zambrano (28) 3.5031 R ***

11. Tom Glavine (43) 3.5361 L

12. Danny Haren (28) 3.6240 R

13. C.C. Sabathia (28) 3.6470 L

14. Kerry Wood (32) 3.6805 R

15. Ben Sheets (30) 3.7248 R

16. Derek Lowe (36) 3.7392 R ***

17. Mark Buehrle (30) 3.7618 L ***

18. Josh Beckett (29) 3.7959 R

19. Barry Zito (31) 3.8221 L

20. John Lackey (30) 3.8438 R

 

I did not count Wood who went the other way, from starter to reliever. However I did count Smoltz, who went from starter to reliever back to starter.

 

As you can see, out of the top 20 ERA active leaders, 9 of them spent significant time in the bullpen. That's 45%. In fact, out of the top 10, SEVEN started in the pen. 70%!!!

 

This leads me to believe that sending a starter to the pen rather than the minors has no significant negative impact on his progression as a pitcher. In fact, the data shows that they are actually HELPED by staying in the bullpen rather than being sent down to the minors. Hughes should stay in the pen.

[TheKilo]

Pedro Martinez isn't active, Smoltz doesn't jive with your reasoning.

[Gom]

Pedro Martinez isn't active' date=' Smoltz doesn't jive with your reasoning.[/quote']

 

Pedro isn't retired yet. Take both him and Smoltz out, it's still seven out of twenty. That's 35%, higher than my previous estimate. My point still is valid and still stands.

[CrespoBlows]

This is similar to Earl Weaver's strategy of bringing up pitching prospects in the bullpen.

 

By the way, Roy Halladay shouldn't be on that list. He was atrocious in 2000, and got sent all the way down to A ball. Randy Johnson made one relief apperance his sophomore season, but made 28 starts.

 

It's really five out of twenty. This is the clearest example of your extremely poor deduction skills. You took the names of the BEST 20 ACTIVE PITCHERS IN BASEBALL (what an awesome sample to pick from), found a few that were somewhat close to your point, and thought what you said was valid.

 

Really lazy. Really stupid.

 

EDIT* I actually agree with the strategy, but this was really poor. Even for Gom.

[jacksonianmarch]

Oswalt relieved 8 times in his rookie yr. Cmon now, you are reaching

[ORS]

This is similar to Earl Weaver's strategy of bringing up pitching prospects in the bullpen.

 

By the way, Roy Halladay shouldn't be on that list. He was atrocious in 2000, and got sent all the way down to A ball. Randy Johnson made one relief apperance his sophomore season, but made 28 starts.

 

It's really five out of twenty. This is the clearest example of your extremely poor deduction skills. You took the names of the BEST 20 ACTIVE PITCHERS IN BASEBALL (what an awesome sample to pick from), found a few that were somewhat close to your point, and thought what you said was valid.

 

Really lazy. Really stupid.

 

EDIT* I actually agree with the strategy, but this was really poor. Even for Gom.

Not to mention this is the "qualified" list from B-R. "Qualified" at B-R usually means at least 1000 IP. There are a truckload of good young pitchers who have not spent appreciable time in relief and are likely to end up on this list once they become "qualified".

 

I also agree with the strategy. Once a pitcher has proved he can repeatedly dominate minor league hitters, but is stuck translating that to the big leagues as a starter, then the next thing to do is see if you can wean him into the league.

[jacksonianmarch]

And I completely agree with that. But I dont think Hughes is stuck transitioning. I think he has shown that he can really handle major league hitters. He's inconsistent, as most 22 yr olds are, but he can handle big league hitters. My concern comes in with his revamped arsenal and his innings cap. I want him to reach the 150-160 innings mark more than anything. And I want him to refine the location of his 2 seamer, cutter and spike curve all pitches that are either new or tweaked from before. A goal for Hughes in my mind is having him comfortable with his arsenal, and capable of throwing 180-190 innings next yr without having the FO and Girardi have convulsions