Lugo benched?

[SCM33]

Because it's completely redundant?

 

Im sorry, I just dont see it.

 

Lugo: Terrible at everything......just sucks, awful.

 

Green: Has never proven anything at any level. a 263BA/324OB%/432SLG/756OPS career minor league hitter, which is embarrassing that he even wears a Sox uniform.

 

Vizquel, at least has a track record (haha, a very very long one) and can still get it done with the glove.

 

Maybe your right, maybe 3 shitbums don't equal 1 quality player......I just dont like the options at SS right now, and not many people should be happy with what we run out there every day when your talking about a premier position (SS) on a premier ballclub.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Vizquel's age concerns me.

[TheKilo]

Im sorry, I just dont see it.

 

Lugo: Terrible at everything......just sucks, awful.

 

Green: Has never proven anything at any level. a 263BA/324OB%/432SLG/756OPS career minor league hitter, which is embarrassing that he even wears a Sox uniform.

 

Vizquel, at least has a track record (haha, a very very long one) and can still get it done with the glove.

 

Maybe your right, maybe 3 shitbums don't equal 1 quality player......I just dont like the options at SS right now, and not many people should be happy with what we run out there every day when your talking about a premier position (SS) on a premier ballclub.

 

You're going to spend millions of dollars on Omar Vizquel when Lowrie is coming back in a month and a half?

[SCM33]

You're going to spend millions of dollars on Omar Vizquel when Lowrie is coming back in a month and a half?

 

Vizquel signed a minor league deal with Texas for the 2009 season.

 

As far as Lowrie, hes a nice player, but not him or Green or Lugo or Vizquel are the long term answer to the revolving door that is SS for the Boston RedSox.

 

Kilo, there really is no right or wrong answer between the three players we are talking about. All of them are below average major leaguers, its really a matter of preference I guess since none of them are really all that much of an improvement of each other.

 

A question to maybe take this thread in a new direction, do you really believe Lowrie is the future, or just the guy slotted to play SS this season, since every year its somebody new?

[example1]

A question to maybe take this thread in a new direction, do you really believe Lowrie is the future, or just the guy slotted to play SS this season, since every year its somebody new?

 

I will take it and run.

 

Yes. I think Lowrie has all of the tools to be more than adequate and to win multiple world series with this team... what else is there to be "the future"? If he's out there celebrating with the team, that's all that matters, right?

 

He won't be the best player out there, and he certainly won't be an all star, but I can see him being adequate to hold down the position if other pieces are added around him--which they inevitability will be. Not only that, but Lowrie is young and cheap, so that should buy him a few years.

 

That said, as long as Lowrie is there he will be a player who can be improved upon. He's not Jimmy Rollins or Hanley Ramirez, but he's certainly better than MLB average and as a switch hitter he gives Francona a number of options that he wouldn't have otherwise. Given that improving to a Hanley Ramirez type player will take a lot of talent, or cash, or both, I see Lowrie being more than adequate for this team and think he has the potential to actually be an impactful middle infielder.

 

Quick: name the 1995 WS Champion Atlanta Braves starting SS. Now name the starting SS for the White Sox in 2005. How about the 2007 Red Sox?

 

 

(Jeff Blauser [.211/.319/.341], Juan Uribe [.252/.301/.412] , Julio Lugo [.237/.294/.349])

[SCM33]

Quick: name the 1995 WS Champion Atlanta Braves starting SS. Now name the starting SS for the White Sox in 2005. How about the 2007 Red Sox?

 

(Jeff Blauser [.211/.319/.341], Juan Uribe [.252/.301/.412] , Julio Lugo [.237/.294/.349])

 

Ok, but amongst those.....lets start from 1993 on...

 

1993 Fernandez .306/.361/.442

1994....cancelled bc of strike

1995....you mentioned

1996 Jeter .314/.370/.430

1997 Renterria .277/.327/.340

1998 Jeter .324/.384/.481

1999 Jeter .349/.448/.552

2000 Jeter .339/.416/.481

2001 Womack .266/.307/.345

2002 Eckstein .293/.363/.388

2003 Gonzalez .256/.313/.443....gold glover

2004 Cabrera .294/.320/.465

2005....you mentioned

2006 Eckstein .292/.350/.344

2007...you mentioned

2008 Rollins .277/.349/.437

 

12 of those players are better than the 3 you mentioned.....12 to the 3 you mentioned....maybe theres more to it than you think.

[CrespoBlows]

Why are we still talking about Lugo? We need to trade Ellsbury.

[Lil D-Ped]

Why are we still talking about Lugo? We need to trade Ellsbury.

 

I disagree, his speed comes in handy every game

[CrespoBlows]

I disagree' date=' his speed comes in handy every game[/quote']

 

He's got an outstanding glove, but he has no power, and below average patience at the plate. He'd be an outstanding 4th OF, but he isn't a starter.

[ORS]

I would prefer a wait-and-see approach with Ellsbury. I think he's a safe bet to maintain whatever value he currently holds, but he's also still young and could improve. As is, he's about league average with the bat, which is perfectly fine from a starter playing a middle of the field position above average defensively.

 

He's also made some adjustments and had better results after a bad two first weeks. From 4/7 to 4/18 his line was .217/.265/.217. From 4/19 to 5/8 it's been .342/.363/.447. Between those windows the XBH and SB split have been 0:6 and 4:11.

 

Yeah, both are small samples, and all thrown together he's about what he was last year. That said, his flashes of brilliance are good enough that I'd prefer to hold on to him to see if he can finally break-through and find consistency at this level. And, again, he seems a safe bet to hold his current value, so seeing what the future holds doesn't seem like a big risk (ie him tanking and losing any value).

[CrespoBlows]

The main concern with those second series of numbers is how inflated it is by his BA. I don't see much in terms of power, or an ability to draw a walk. I love his defense in CF, but he is an overrated player, and the Red Sox could cash in on this misjudgment of value.

[ORS]

To be fair, if you are pitcher, do you throw a lot of balls out of the strikezone to a guy who's hitting .217 but has 50+ SB speed? Hard to walk when you see nothing but strikes, which is what's happening right now, and he's handling them. If he continues to, he'll see a more restrained approach from pitchers and have to adjust again. It's on him to do that.

[CrespoBlows]

To be fair' date=' if you are pitcher, do you throw a lot of balls out of the strikezone to a guy who's hitting .217 but has 50+ SB speed? Hard to walk when you see nothing but strikes, which is what's happening right now, and he's handling them. If he continues to, he'll see a more restrained approach from pitchers and have to adjust again. It's on him to do that.[/quote']

 

I think his extreme lack of power is causing pitchers to attack him.

[Dipre]

I think his extreme lack of power is causing pitchers to attack him.

 

Nope, it's their reluctance to having a game-changer on base that causes pitchers to attack him.

 

You see, Ellsbury, like Juan Pierre and Chone Figgins, is a rare breed of player, inflated batting averages with mediocre OBPs come with them, because pitchers attack them to keep them off base, that being said, however, i expect Ellsbury to flash some power as he matures and continues driving the inside pitch and uses his contact to slash it from baseline to baseline.

[ORS]

It's not just the speed. When there's a threat of extra bases, particularly of the ball leaving the park, pitchers are more cautious. Both factors combine to a situation where Jacoby is going to see a lot of strikes.

[CrespoBlows]

To be fair' date=' if you are pitcher, do you throw a lot of balls out of the strikezone to a guy who's hitting .217 but has 50+ SB speed? Hard to walk when you see nothing but strikes, which is what's happening right now, and he's handling them. If he continues to, he'll see a more restrained approach from pitchers and have to adjust again. It's on him to do that.[/quote']

 

I don't know how bad a 26% rate of chasing balls is, but most of the players I looked up that had about the same BB/PA rate that Ellsbury has, also had his knack for chasing pitches out of the zone.

[Dipre]

I don't know how bad a 26% rate of chasing balls is' date=' but most of the players I looked up that had about the same BB/PA rate that Ellsbury has, also had his knack for chasing pitches out of the zone.[/quote']

 

He has to be aggresive because pitchers attack him early in the count, an you shouldn't let the pitcher get on top of the count if you can avoid it.

[CrespoBlows]

Nope, it's their reluctance to having a game-changer on base that causes pitchers to attack him.

 

You see, Ellsbury, like Juan Pierre and Chone Figgins, is a rare breed of player, inflated batting averages with mediocre OBPs come with them, because pitchers attack them to keep them off base, that being said, however, i expect Ellsbury to flash some power as he matures and continues driving the inside pitch and uses his contact to slash it from baseline to baseline.

 

Pierre and Figgins aren't that great. Ellsbury, for all his faults still manages a respectable SB rate, but how many chances do you want to take with the MVP of the league hitting behind him?

 

I would prefer to see Ellsbury hit 9th, and the Red Sox replacing him with a better OBP threat at the top of the lineup.

[Dipre]

Pierre and Figgins aren't that great. Ellsbury, for all his faults still manages a respectable SB rate, but how many chances do you want to take with the MVP of the league hitting behind him?

 

I would prefer to see Ellsbury hit 9th, and the Red Sox replacing him with a better OBP threat at the top of the lineup.

 

But that is presenting an entirely different POV than your idea of trading Ellsbury altogether, in fact, this is an idea that i was just about to bring up, since he would be an awesome number 9 hitter, and he would, of course, keep providing GG defense at a middle line position.

[Lil D-Ped]

I see the point Crespo is making, but the way I see it, I think we've got to have someone like Ellsbury in the team to be successful. Sure he doesn't have power, but we need to have a change of pace in there like we have with Ellsbury. Might not support my side of the argument very well but that's how I feel.

[CrespoBlows]

He has to be aggresive because pitchers attack him early in the count' date=' an you shouldn't let the pitcher get on top of the count if you can avoid it.[/quote']

 

His Zone% and F-Strike% are 51.5% and 57.9%. The Zone% number was lower than what Youkilis, Bay, Pedroia had in 2008, and the F-Strike% isn't noticeably different.

 

This is on Ellsbury.

[CrespoBlows]

But that is presenting an entirely different POV than your idea of trading Ellsbury altogether' date=' in fact, this is an idea that i was just about to bring up, since he would be an awesome number 9 hitter, and he would, of course, keep providing GG defense at a middle line position.[/quote']

 

I would prefer if we could upgrade our CF position, and use Ellsbury as bait, but in the meantime he should be batting 9th. (or 8th, because Green/Lugo should be there)

[ORS]

I don't know how bad a 26% rate of chasing balls is' date=' but most of the players I looked up that had about the same BB/PA rate that Ellsbury has, also had his knack for chasing pitches out of the zone.[/quote']

Click the "Show Averages" tab in that module at fangraphs. He does chase a little more than league average, but he also does see more strikes. What's telling to me is if you look at the module above that, "Pitch Type". Look at the FB%. They are daring him to hit the ball, and right now he is with the adjustment he's made.

[CrespoBlows]

Click the "Show Averages" tab in that module at fangraphs. He does chase a little more than league average' date=' but he also does see more strikes. What's telling to me is if you look at the module above that, "Pitch Type". Look at the FB%. They are daring him to hit the ball, and right now he is with the adjustment he's made.[/quote']

 

Thanks. I was getting tired of looking up the numbers for 50 different players to get a read on them.

[Dipre]

Click the "Show Averages" tab in that module at fangraphs. He does chase a little more than league average' date=' but he also does see more strikes. What's telling to me is if you look at the module above that, "Pitch Type". Look at the FB%. They are daring him to hit the ball, and right now he is with the adjustment he's made.[/quote']

 

That's about the way i see it.

 

If they throw fastballs over the plate, you have to swing, that's what you're supposed to do.

[CrespoBlows]

Click the "Show Averages" tab in that module at fangraphs. He does chase a little more than league average' date=' but he also does see more strikes. [/quote']

 

Would that change the O-Swing%?

[ORS]

I don't see how/why it would change the O-swing%? That rate is what it is. Pitches are classified first as in the zone or out. When it's out of zone, regardless of how many in or out he sees, he's swinging just over 26% of the time. What I think would impact O-swing% would be the "Pitch Type" frequency. Swinging at FBs out of the zone is more excusable than swinging at breaking pitches, IMO, as their trajectory is easier on hand-eye coordination. Since he sees a good amount of FBs, this may account for him being slightly less selective than average.

 

Of course, they don't break down pitch types into averages, so doing the exercise of finding correlation between O-swing% to FB% would be a time consuming endeavor, and I just don't care that much about it.

[chakes17]

Lugo is better then nick green...both have horrible gloves and both aren't exactly magicians with the stick but i would trust lugo more then green

[Lil D-Ped]

Lugo is better then nick green...both have horrible gloves and both aren't exactly magicians with the stick but i would trust lugo more then green

 

I second that.. at least Lugo is somewhat a veteran

[TheKilo]

I disagree' date=' his speed comes in handy every game[/quote']

 

wut