2009 Spring Training

[CrespoBlows]

2+ pages about Kris Johnson' date=' really?[/quote']

 

Why do people say stupid s*** like this?

 

lol i dont kno hu tehy r talkin bout so ill juss type thiz auwsome epigram.

 

If you don't like where the conversation is headed, don't talk about it, or talk about something else.

[TheKilo]

So. Freaking. Hard.

[Dojji]

So. Freaking. Hard.

 

Dude, we really don't need to know. Save it for the ladies.

[Dojji]

Other than truly elite pitchers like Strasburg' date=' I would say most college pitchers need more development. [/quote']

 

The funny part is that when you do this, you come so close to my point that while you still missed it completely, other than facepalming, all I can do is point out the little detail you missed and wind up sounding like a parsimonious twat. In this case, the word "much."

 

Anyway, let it go. There's not enough ground here between us to be worth fighting over.

 

Call it what you want, but I see no reason for optimistic outlooks on Johnson.

 

He hasn't covered himself in glory yet, but his career and he are both quite young. I guess I don't see very much reason for such unbridled pessimism either, especially when you can write off so many of Johnson's relatively few minor league innings as Lancaster Effect and Lancaster shell-shock.

 

A bit underrated? So you mean like the 24th best prospect in the system? Maybe the 20th? Still s***.

 

He's a better pitcher than you. They rank prospects after #20 because some of them still wind up doing some good things for the team.

 

f***ing Christ, you have to be the most literal person on the site.

 

You're only just now realizing this?

 

I was referring to your argument, in which you brought up Bard. I didn't mention anything about you doing it before. I think using Bard in this argument just once is an excess. The two aren't similar.

 

Say... what? I brought up what I felt they had in common -- being victims of the Lancaster Effect. I probablyh should have used someone else, but Bard was the first guy to spring to mind.

 

OH, BECUZ TAHT HAPPEN 2 BARD N HE PITCH GOOD AFTER MABEY JOHNSON WIL PTIC GUD 2. Simple, absurd connection.

 

What's so absurd about it? Seriously. Both of them got scrambled by Lancaster. Both of them struggled as a result. Bard bounced back in bunny innings in Greenville, Johnson bounced back against advanced competition in Portland. Eventually Bard, who has better stuff than Johnson, surpassed him. Anyone who knew anything about the two pitchers knows that's going to happen because Bard's raw stuff is better.

 

All I'm saying is that Bard looked pretty crisped about this time last year. Johnson is still bouncing back from the same thing that nearly toasted Bard except he probably weathered it a bit better -- but because he needs to be finer with his stuff to be effective, it'll take him longer to truly get his feet under him at the minor league level, and a certain level of patience is in order, especially since he's been rewarding that patience by slowly improving.

 

If the Sox FO disagreed with that assessment Johnson would not have been in Portland last year. They're not big on charity promotions. And certainly Johnson didn't advance based on his dominating success in Lancaster, now did he? They must think he learned something.

If Tazawa is blowing hitters away in AA ball, it's because he's too good for the level. He needs to be with players that are at his level of competition. The one problem I have with the Red Sox front office is that they baby their prospects, because IT MITE RUIN THEM. Sorry, I don't buy it. If it does, I don't want those *******s on our team.

 

The alternative is Craig Hansen.

 

It's not about protecting the poor fragile egos of the prospects. It's about managing risk for the team. They give players a set amount of time at a given level partly to make sure they've learned what they're supposed to at that level, and partly to make sure that what they're seeing from a guy isn't just a mirage or a flash in the pan.

 

If you move a player up too quick you're running the risk of the ultimate lose-lose-lose, stunted player development, loss of wins that a properly-developed player would provide, and loss of future revenue for the player. Or even realizing that that player who hit .300 at each level really isn't as ready as you thought and he never touches the Mendoza line again.

 

Tazawa's pretty polished, but he's honed his stuff against A ball level competition. It's very possible he could come up to the majors right now and dominate. I'd love to see it. But if he's in AA to start the year he's probably there until at least the ASB in order to make sure that the team can get some kind of real baseline on him before they start jerking him around on the Pawtucket to Boston shuttle bus.

 

 

 

Abstract terms like that one vary from person to person. I think my projection is pretty realistic.

 

Actually it is. You might even be right. I disagree though. I think Johnson is a strong breakout candidate this year based on a few things I think I know about his situation.

[Dipre]

The funny part is that when you do this, you come so close to my point that while you still missed it completely, other than facepalming, all I can do is point out the little detail you missed and wind up sounding like a parsimonious twat. In this case, the word "much."

 

Anyway, let it go. There's not enough ground here between us to be worth fighting over.

 

 

 

He hasn't covered himself in glory yet, but his career and he are both quite young. I guess I don't see very much reason for such unbridled pessimism either, especially when you can write off so many of Johnson's relatively few minor league innings as Lancaster Effect and Lancaster shell-shock.

 

 

 

He's a better pitcher than you. They rank prospects after #20 because some of them still wind up doing some good things for the team.

 

 

 

You're only just now realizing this?

 

 

 

Say... what? I brought up what I felt they had in common -- being victims of the Lancaster Effect. I probablyh should have used someone else, but Bard was the first guy to spring to mind.

 

 

 

What's so absurd about it? Seriously. Both of them got scrambled by Lancaster. Both of them struggled as a result. Bard bounced back in bunny innings in Greenville, Johnson bounced back against advanced competition in Portland. Eventually Bard, who has better stuff than Johnson, surpassed him. Anyone who knew anything about the two pitchers knows that's going to happen because Bard's raw stuff is better.

 

All I'm saying is that Bard looked pretty crisped about this time last year. Johnson is still bouncing back from the same thing that nearly toasted Bard except he probably weathered it a bit better -- but because he needs to be finer with his stuff to be effective, it'll take him longer to truly get his feet under him at the minor league level, and a certain level of patience is in order, especially since he's been rewarding that patience by slowly improving.

 

If the Sox FO disagreed with that assessment Johnson would not have been in Portland last year. They're not big on charity promotions. And certainly Johnson didn't advance based on his dominating success in Lancaster, now did he? They must think he learned something.

 

 

The alternative is Craig Hansen.

 

It's not about protecting the poor fragile egos of the prospects. It's about managing risk for the team. They give players a set amount of time at a given level partly to make sure they've learned what they're supposed to at that level, and partly to make sure that what they're seeing from a guy isn't just a mirage or a flash in the pan.

 

If you move a player up too quick you're running the risk of the ultimate lose-lose-lose, stunted player development, loss of wins that a properly-developed player would provide, and loss of future revenue for the player. Or even realizing that that player who hit .300 at each level really isn't as ready as you thought and he never touches the Mendoza line again.

 

Tazawa's pretty polished, but he's honed his stuff against A ball level competition. It's very possible he could come up to the majors right now and dominate. I'd love to see it. But if he's in AA to start the year he's probably there until at least the ASB in order to make sure that the team can get some kind of real baseline on him before they start jerking him around on the Pawtucket to Boston shuttle bus.

 

 

 

 

 

Actually it is. You might even be right. I disagree though. I think Johnson is a strong breakout candidate this year based on a few things I think I know about his situation.

 

 

Dear God in Heaven.

 

3 things.

 

1) Doiji is insane.

 

2) Kris Johnsonn sucks, he lacks the stamina to be a starter, the stuff to be a late reliever, and the control to even be a specialist.

 

3) Jacko's arguments.......they just get on my nerver, even if he IS right.

[CrespoBlows]

The funny part is that when you do this, you come so close to my point that while you still missed it completely, other than facepalming, all I can do is point out the little detail you missed and wind up sounding like a parsimonious twat. In this case, the word "much."

 

Anyway, let it go. There's not enough ground here between us to be worth fighting over.

 

Really? You can't be this stupid. That wasn't your point, but you are a total revisionist. We've been talking about Kris Johnson, who is three years removed from college. If he hasn't developed his pitches by now, he's either a late bloomer (rare), or he just isn't that good. I'll go with the more likely scenario.

 

He hasn't covered himself in glory yet, but his career and he are both quite young. I guess I don't see very much reason for such unbridled pessimism either, especially when you can write off so many of Johnson's relatively few minor league innings as Lancaster Effect and Lancaster shell-shock.

 

His WHIP, his age, his lack of stuff, and if it is Lancaster shell-shock, it's been a f***ing year. That borders on PTSD, which we probably could go without.

 

 

He's a better pitcher than you. They rank prospects after #20 because some of them still wind up doing some good things for the team.

 

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

You f***ing suck.

 

 

You're only just now realizing this?

 

......

 

 

Say... what? I brought up what I felt they had in common -- being victims of the Lancaster Effect. I probablyh should have used someone else, but Bard was the first guy to spring to mind.

 

I got him to say it. Stop using the Lancaster Effect like it's a psychogical disorder. If these pampered pussies can't handle giving up a few runs in a bandbox, then how will they handle a pressure packed situation in Fenway?

 

 

 

What's so absurd about it? Seriously. Both of them got scrambled by Lancaster. Both of them struggled as a result. Bard bounced back in bunny innings in Greenville,

 

Let's see. Bard's fastball has been called, "the best he's ever seen," by a major league scout. Kris Johnson has not.

 

Johnson bounced back against advanced competition in Portland.

 

Really? 1.50 WHIP is bouncing back? You are easily impressed.

 

 

Eventually Bard, who has better stuff than Johnson, surpassed him. Anyone who knew anything about the two pitchers knows that's going to happen because Bard's raw stuff is better.

 

 

All I'm saying is that Bard looked pretty crisped about this time last year. Johnson is still bouncing back from the same thing that nearly toasted Bard except he probably weathered it a bit better -- but because he needs to be finer with his stuff to be effective, it'll take him longer to truly get his feet under him at the minor league level, and a certain level of patience is in order, especially since he's been rewarding that patience by slowly improving.

 

I probablyh should have used someone else, but Bard was the first guy to spring to mind

 

Now that you have admitted it, you can stop using Bard in your argument.

 

If the Sox FO disagreed with that assessment Johnson would not have been in Portland last year. They're not big on charity promotions. And certainly Johnson didn't advance based on his dominating success in Lancaster, now did he? They must think he learned something.

 

Again, two different situations. Bard was truly awful in Greenville/Lancaster in 2007. He needed to repeat the level. Johnson was a little below average for Lancaster.

 

The alternative is Craig Hansen.

 

Craig Hansen can't throw strikes. He's also extremely soft. I'm glad we traded him.

 

It's not about protecting the poor fragile egos of the prospects. It's about managing risk for the team. They give players a set amount of time at a given level partly to make sure they've learned what they're supposed to at that level, and partly to make sure that what they're seeing from a guy isn't just a mirage or a flash in the pan.

 

There comes a point where it is pointless and too conservative to leave a player in AA ball. I don't think it's a stretch to see Tazawa blowing away AA ball hitters. If he's not doing that, then by all means leave him in Portland, but if he's showing that he's too advanced for his competition, he should start playing against better players.

 

If you move a player up too quick you're running the risk of the ultimate lose-lose-lose, stunted player development, loss of wins that a properly-developed player would provide, and loss of future revenue for the player. Or even realizing that that player who hit .300 at each level really isn't as ready as you thought and he never touches the Mendoza line again.

 

Tazawa's pretty polished, but he's honed his stuff against A ball level competition. It's very possible he could come up to the majors right now and dominate. I'd love to see it. But if he's in AA to start the year he's probably there until at least the ASB in order to make sure that the team can get some kind of real baseline on him before they start jerking him around on the Pawtucket to Boston shuttle bus.

 

Why did you bring this up? Who even came close to advocating this? I suggested that he go to Pawtucket if he's dominating AA ball. Do you see ANYTHING about Boston in that point? Stop making s*** up.

 

 

Actually it is. You might even be right. I disagree though. I think Johnson is a strong breakout candidate this year based on a few things I think I know about his situation.

 

Nice of you to say "I think I know." Seeing how you pretty much made up your argument from whatever popped into your head first, I think the only thing we can credit you for knowing is that Kris Johnson has the letter 'K' in his name.

[Dojji]

Really? You can't be this stupid. That wasn't your point' date=' but you are a total revisionist. We've been talking about Kris Johnson, who is three years removed from college. If he hasn't developed his pitches by now, he's either a late bloomer (rare), or he just isn't that good. I'll go with the more likely scenario.[/quote']

 

Just because you've lost track of what I was saying doesn't mean the rest of us are on the sjort bus. My point is that you can't use his college status to blast him for not dominating the minors quickly when his college numbers were frankly not much better than his last year in AA. Either the Red Sox knew they were taking on a project or the were phenomenally stupid for drafting Johnson.

 

Now I admit, this is actually Jacko's argument rather than yours (how's it feel piggybacking on an argument from Jacksonianmarch anyhow?) but the reason this whole line of argument came up in the first place was because Jaco brought up the fact that Johnson was a draftee from college and therefore "supposed" to be more polished, and you had to toss in your sycophantic "Yeah, dummy!"

 

 

His WHIP, his age, his lack of stuff, and if it is Lancaster shell-shock, it's been a f***ing year. That borders on PTSD, which we probably could go without.

 

Well, he did put up better numbers the next year at a superior level. There's little to doubt that he needs to improve to make it, but if they didn't think he'd do that anyway they should probably trade or release him.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

You f***ing suck.

 

Considering the source, I'll take the compliment.

 

......

 

My, we ARE unobservant.

 

I've found that around here, I've had to be literal. You clowns tend to take every little thing I say and go all Ken Starr on me over it. This whole Bard nonsense is a classic example.

 

 

I got him to say it.

 

The Bard comparison was never a big part of my argument, if other people hang up on it it's time to abandon it. It was only ever there as another example of the ways Lancaster can mess up a good pitcher. That was all the farther I ever intended to go with Dan Bard in this thread. You were the one who tried to stretch the analogy out twelve ways to Sunday.

 

Stop using the Lancaster Effect like it's a psychogical disorder. If these pampered pussies can't handle giving up a few runs in a bandbox, then how will they handle a pressure packed situation in Fenway?

 

Honestly they probably should have started Johnson in Greenville in '07 for the same reason starting Bard there last year made sense. I'm guessing they'd do it differently if they had it to do over again. I don't think it's about the runs, per se, every pitcher gives up runs, it's about making sure a guy's ready for the level of competition he'll be facing. I think Johnson's a little behind his age bracket in development, what with a bit of a lost year in college on top of getting torched in his first full professional season.

 

You can sneer at the results he gave us in Portland, but they do represent progress over what he gave his teams in 2006 and 2007, and at a level higher of baseball. A year of mixed positives and negatives after a player's been struggling is usually a sign that a guy's close to "getting it" if he can just take the next step forward. There is some breakout potential there in other words

 

BTW, speaking of plusses and minuses, I just double-checked Johnson's numbers and BABIP was an issue for himlast year. His 2008 Portland BABIP was .339, which is quite high.

 

Unfortunately I can't find the contact rates so I don't know whether he just got unlucky or whether he was just surrendering lasers. His FIP was a respectable 3.41, not bad at all for a pitcher with modest command like Johnson, which points towards bad luck. Take it for whatever it's worth.

Craig Hansen can't throw strikes. He's also extremely soft. I'm glad we traded him.

 

If we'd found that out in the minors instead of the bigs, like we did with Bryce Cox (remember him?), he would have done us less damage.

There comes a point where it is pointless and too conservative to leave a player in AA ball. I don't think it's a stretch to see Tazawa blowing away AA ball hitters. If he's not doing that, then by all means leave him in Portland, but if he's showing that he's too advanced for his competition, he should start playing against better players.

 

If it's ridiculous, then he'll be promoted. I still think he gets at least 15 starts in AA though. That seems to be the standard.

 

 

Why did you bring this up? Who even came close to advocating this? I suggested that he go to Pawtucket if he's dominating AA ball. Do you see ANYTHING about Boston in that point? Stop making s*** up.

 

This FO has acted in the past as if AA was the place to finish the last of a player's development and that AAA was just the place you go while you're awating promotion. Not too many of our top prospects have spent much time there recently before getting called up to the big leagues. Masterson got his first AAA start after he got his first big league appearance, and Bowden and Buchholz weren't much better.

 

In other words, while it's possible for a guy to be in AAA without getting called up quickly, since that doesn't happen very often to our top pitching prospects,if a spot opens on the big league roster we could probably count on seeing Tazawa in the same year he reaches AAA. It's definitely a factor in thinking about whether Tazawa should get quickly promoted to that level.

[CrespoBlows]

Just because you've lost track of what I was saying doesn't mean the rest of us are on the sjort bus.

 

What the f*** is that? A bus from Finland?

 

My point is that you can't use his college status to blast him for not dominating the minors quickly when his college numbers were frankly not much better than his last year in AA. Either the Red Sox knew they were taking on a project or the were phenomenally stupid for drafting Johnson.

 

He was a project that hasn't panned out. He hasn't shown the ability to recapture his stuff, or toss strikes.

 

Now I admit, this is actually Jacko's argument rather than yours (how's it feel piggybacking on an argument from Jacksonianmarch anyhow?) but the reason this whole line of argument came up in the first place was because Jaco brought up the fact that Johnson was a draftee from college and therefore "supposed" to be more polished, and you had to toss in your sycophantic

 

Why the f*** are you telling me about Jacko's argument? Isn't this fairly obvious to everyone else? He doesn't like what the other person says, so he ignores the argument, and makes one up on his own, or tells you about someone elses argument.

 

"Yeah, dummy!"

 

I would never say anything that corny. That's reserved for you.

 

Well, he did put up better numbers the next year at a superior level. There's little to doubt that he needs to improve to make it, but if they didn't think he'd do that anyway they should probably trade or release him.

 

You can keep shouting that, but that doesn't make it true. A garbage 1.50 WHIP is not someone worth defending. This is should be obvious.

 

 

Considering the source, I'll take the compliment.

 

lol kris johnson is betr than u. THE WORST ARGUMENT I HAVE EVER f***ING READ! I can't believe you employed that. It was pathetic, and you should admit it.

 

My, we ARE unobservant.

 

I've found that around here, I've had to be literal. You clowns tend to take every little thing I say and go all Ken Starr on me over it. This whole Bard nonsense is a classic example.

 

Your comparison falls apart after examining the evidence. It's horrible. You are using Daniel Bard as a reason to suggest that Johnson would be OK after Lancaster. If that's the case, than I can use that to justify every pitcher who has sucked at Lancaster. It's a nonsense comparison.

 

The Bard comparison was never a big part of my argument, if other people hang up on it it's time to abandon it. It was only ever there as another example of the ways Lancaster can mess up a good pitcher. That was all the farther I ever intended to go with Dan Bard in this thread. You were the one who tried to stretch the analogy out twelve ways to Sunday.

 

The whole point in refuting the Bard argument, is because Dan Bard was considered a top prospect by most major publications. The fact that you call Johnson a "good pitcher," is an opinion you share by yourself. You are trying to link a very good prospect with an average one, at best. It is nonsense, just like everything else you spew out.

 

 

Honestly they probably should have started Johnson in Greenville in '07 for the same reason starting Bard there last year made sense. I'm guessing they'd do it differently if they had it to do over again. I don't think it's about the runs, per se, every pitcher gives up runs, it's about making sure a guy's ready for the level of competition he'll be facing. I think Johnson's a little behind his age bracket in development, what with a bit of a lost year in college on top of getting torched in his first full professional season.

 

Getting torched, and behind in his development? You are making my argument for me.

 

You can sneer at the results he gave us in Portland, but they do represent progress over what he gave his teams in 2006 and 2007, and at a level higher of baseball. A year of mixed positives and negatives after a player's been struggling is usually a sign that a guy's close to "getting it" if he can just take the next step forward. There is some breakout potential there in other words

 

I don't see any progress. I see a pitcher with bad control, who did nothing to change my mind.

 

BTW, speaking of plusses and minuses, I just double-checked Johnson's numbers and BABIP was an issue for himlast year. His 2008 Portland BABIP was .339, which is quite high.

 

You could drop 20 hits to help his BABIP, but his WHIP would still be over 1.30. He has a major problem with control. He needs to fix that.

 

Unfortunately I can't find the contact rates so I don't know whether he just got unlucky or whether he was just surrendering lasers. His FIP was a respectable 3.41, not bad at all for a pitcher with modest command like Johnson, which points towards bad luck. Take it for whatever it's worth.

 

If a FIP manages to churn out a 3.41 ERA with a 1.49 WHIP, there is something wrong with the method. Speaking of luck, look at his 0.33 HR/9 rates. That's unsustainable.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

What the f*** is that? A bus from Finland?

 

:lol:

[Dojji]

What the f*** is that? A bus from Finland?

 

Resorted to calling out typos have we?

He was a project that hasn't panned out. He hasn't shown the ability to recapture his stuff, or toss strikes.

 

He's got time. He's shown some signs of progress. Just because it's not enough for you doesn't mean it's not there.

Why the f*** are you telling me about Jacko's argument? Isn't this fairly obvious to everyone else? He doesn't like what the other person says, so he ignores the argument, and makes one up on his own, or tells you about someone elses argument.

 

I'm telling you about Jacko's argument because you asked.

 

I would never say anything that corny. That's reserved for you.

 

And that isn't corny. OK.

 

You can keep shouting that, but that doesn't make it true. A garbage 1.50 WHIP is not someone worth defending. This is should be obvious.

 

Question: If he's not worth defending, why have you decided he's worth attacking?

Your comparison falls apart after examining the evidence. It's horrible. You are using Daniel Bard as a reason to suggest that Johnson would be OK after Lancaster. If that's the case, than I can use that to justify every pitcher who has sucked at Lancaster. It's a nonsense comparison.

 

Actually, that would be a terrible argument, because Bard never pitched in Lancaster again.

 

I used him as an example of another player who got torched in Lancaster. You took all the remaining logical steps without any help from me. My mistake was playing along while you shifted the whole premise of the argument. He wasn't originally even a comparison. Just an example. I don't take all the blame if you decide to run 20 miles with "(see: Bard, Daniel)" as your starting line

 

The whole point in refuting the Bard argument, is because Dan Bard was considered a top prospect by most major publications. The fact that you call Johnson a "good pitcher," is an opinion you share by yourself. You are trying to link a very good prospect with an average one, at best. It is nonsense, just like everything else you spew out.

 

No, I';m not, and guess what? I never said that. Show me where I ever said that because Bard bounced back, Johnson will, or even that it made it more probable or possible that Johnson might. In point of fact, I've repeatedly said that Bard was far more talented. I've repeatedly made the obvious observation that Bard has passed Johnson. If you want to keep arguing this point you're only arguing with yourself.

 

The only one who is trying to compare Bard to Johnson is you.

 

Getting torched, and behind in his development? You are making my argument for me.

 

Or I would be if the guy wasn't going into his age 24 season in AA.

I don't see any progress. I see a pitcher with bad control, who did nothing to change my mind.

 

That's because you're ignoring the fact that he's advanced a level in the meantime.

You could drop 20 hits to help his BABIP, but his WHIP would still be over 1.30. He has a major problem with control. He needs to fix that.

 

I never contradicted that. He wouldn't be the first lefthander whose command started to come around at about age 24-25 though.

 

If a FIP manages to churn out a 3.41 ERA with a 1.49 WHIP, there is something wrong with the method.

 

I didn't make up the number.

 

Speaking of luck, look at his 0.33 HR/9 rates. That's unsustainable.

 

That's one number we really don't have a baseline on with Johnson. His Lancaster rate is equally absurd the other way. One of the reasons I think we don't really know all we need to know about Johnson to decide what he is yet.

[Dojji]

Dear God in Heaven.

 

3 things.

 

1) Doiji is insane.

 

2) Kris Johnsonn sucks, he lacks the stamina to be a starter, the stuff to be a late reliever, and the control to even be a specialist.

 

3) Jacko's arguments.......they just get on my nerver, even if he IS right.

 

I'm still trying to figure out exactly how this got started and why it's gone on so long.:dunno: Personally I've been content to drop this for most of the afternoon but Crespo keeps coming back with one more bitchfest and mischaracterize my position AGAIN just to keep things going.

 

These posts would be a lot shorter if Crespo edited out all the low-level insults he's been slinging my way. Actually at some point I wonder if he'd have anything to say at all if he dropped them. It's all white noise anyway.

[Dojji]

Alright, enough. Just enough.

 

Bottom line, I think Johnson still has projectability as a starter in the major leagues. Crespo does not. We'll know for sure in probably 2 years. Squabbling about it further in the meantime is unproductive.

 

Consider my small aside in a post about 4 pages back in this thread actually having the temerity to suggest that Johnson might be as high as 10th on the starting pitching depth chart withdrawn, if it's THAT important to you. For the record, the only time we've gotten as far down as that on the depth chart is 2006 so the whole argument is based on an extreme contingency that'll never happen anyway.

 

So getting back to what we were talking about before this whole fiasco started, I believe we were praising Buchholz for an excellent spring (the thrust of the fateful post was my broaching the possibility that he might wind up the 5th starter of a stud rotation of Beckett-Lester-Daisuke-Smoltz and himself and we'd still have some young depth left over. I didn't have to mention He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named there, it could have been Tazawa and my point would have been probably stronger).

 

All I have to say to you, Crespo, is that you must have been EXTREMELY bored today.

[TheKilo]

Dude' date=' we really don't need to know. Save it for the ladies.[/quote']

 

Complete and total fail.

[CrespoBlows]

All I have to say to you, Crespo, is that you must have been EXTREMELY bored today.

 

Uhh... likewise? I think you've been posting in this thread at the same rate I have.

[CrespoBlows]

I'm still trying to figure out exactly how this got started and why it's gone on so long.:dunno: Personally I've been content to drop this for most of the afternoon but Crespo keeps coming back with one more bitchfest and mischaracterize my position AGAIN just to keep things going.

 

These posts would be a lot shorter if Crespo edited out all the low-level insults he's been slinging my way. Actually at some point I wonder if he'd have anything to say at all if he dropped them. It's all white noise anyway.

 

Second hypocrisy. I'll admit it. I hurled a ton of insults at you, mainly because you are a revisionist douchebag with a sincere lack of wit.

 

When you do it, doesn't count? I guess that's how you wallow in your victimhood 24/7.

 

Douche.

[CrespoBlows]

Resorted to calling out typos have we?

 

No, this is what we call irony. You failed in your attempt to spell "short bus," which was an insult. I thought it was proper to point that out.

 

 

I'm telling you about Jacko's argument because you asked.

 

False.

 

And that isn't corny. OK.

 

False, again.

 

 

Question: If he's not worth defending, why have you decided he's worth attacking?

 

I have merely said he is not a good pitcher, you disagree. Hence, you get an argument when there are two different views. Is this hard to grasp?

 

Actually, that would be a terrible argument, because Bard never pitched in Lancaster again.

 

I used him as an example of another player who got torched in Lancaster. You took all the remaining logical steps without any help from me. My mistake was playing along while you shifted the whole premise of the argument. He wasn't originally even a comparison. Just an example. I don't take all the blame if you decide to run 20 miles with "(see: Bard, Daniel)" as your starting line

 

No, I';m not, and guess what? I never said that. Show me where I ever said that because Bard bounced back, Johnson will, or even that it made it more probable or possible that Johnson might. In point of fact, I've repeatedly said that Bard was far more talented. I've repeatedly made the obvious observation that Bard has passed Johnson. If you want to keep arguing this point you're only arguing with yourself.

 

What is the point in bringing up Bard than? You showed that Bard failed in Lancaster, so did Johnson. Who the f*** gives a s***? Why would you bring up Dan Bard? You even talked about how Bard bounced back after getting out of Lancaster. It's a s***** comparison. ONE THAT YOU BROUGHT UP.

 

The only one who is trying to compare Bard to Johnson is you.

 

You've got to be f***ing kidding me. You must have been a failed patient of lobotomy surgery.

 

 

Or I would be if the guy wasn't going into his age 24 season in AA.

 

 

That's because you're ignoring the fact that he's advanced a level in the meantime.

 

No, I don't ignore that fact. I am more concerned with his performance, which consists in handing out free passes to all who want one.

 

 

I never contradicted that. He wouldn't be the first lefthander whose command started to come around at about age 24-25 though.

 

Yeah! Like Santana! Sabathia! Lester, too! Somehow you found a way to squeeze Kris Johnson in there, who has always had terrible command, and s*** stuff.

 

If I haven't made my point clear by now, it's because you're incredibly dense who will ignore, fill in, and assume what the other person is arguing. You've been known to have the balls of every Red Sox prospect lodged in your throat.

 

For f***'s sake, you got booted from soxprospects for being too optimistic. How is that even possible?

[a700hitter]

When will final cuts be made by the Sox?

[BoSox21]

Is there anything to be decided besides the utility infielder? Seems the roster is shaping up to be:

 

SP Josh Beckett

SP Jon Lester

SP Daisuke Matsuzaka

SP Brad Penny

SP Tim Wakefield

 

RP Ramon Ramirez

RP Manny Delcarmen

RP Javier Lopez

RP Justin Masterson

RP Takashi Saito

RP Hideki Okajima

RP Jonathan Papelbon

 

CF Jacoby Ellsbury

2B Dustin Pedroia

DH David Ortiz

1B Kevin Youkilis

LF Jason Bay

RF JD Drew

3B Mike Lowell

C Jason Varitek

SS Jed Lowrie

 

BN George Kottaras

BN Rocco Baldelli

BN Chris Carter

BN Nick Green?

[rician blast]

Ellsbury is HUGE to this team this year. If the Sox pitch well and get production out of the

1-slot, they've got a very legit shot. Wouldn't it be sweet to win a 3rd title this decade?

[BoSox21]

Yea, if Ellsbury can thrive in the leadoff spot, it makes the lineup very imposing. I don't have much doubt the pitching will be good to great.

[BSN07]

Why do people say stupid s*** like this?

 

lol i dont kno hu tehy r talkin bout so ill juss type thiz auwsome epigram.

 

If you don't like where the conversation is headed, don't talk about it, or talk about something else.

 

Because the "beating a dead horse" reference get's old.

 

 

After 2 pages it just turned into a personal squabble between you two, then after the 3rd page it turned into the weekly Dojji hate fest.

 

And when you come in to the "2009 Spring training" thread, you hope to read whats going with the team. Not 2 people bickering about Kris f***ing Johnson, of whom won't even see the ML at any point this season unless an Meteor hits the f***ing Bullpen.

 

If you want to discuss Johnson, take it to the minors thread. If your bored and feel like having a message board duel, take it to anything goes.

 

 

Don't mind you guys bantering, just take it to it's proper place is all I'm saying.

[TheKilo]

What's the proper place?

[Dojji]

http://students.cs.byu.edu/~jenny888/Virtual%20Zoo/toilet.jpg

[BSN07]

Because the "beating a dead horse" reference get's old.

 

 

After 2 pages it just turned into a personal squabble between you two, then after the 3rd page it turned into the weekly Dojji hate fest.

 

And when you come in to the "2009 Spring training" thread, you hope to read whats going with the team. Not 2 people bickering about Kris f***ing Johnson, of whom won't even see the ML at any point this season unless an Meteor hits the f***ing Bullpen.

 

If you want to discuss Johnson, take it to the minors thread. If your bored and feel like having a message board duel, take it to anything goes.

 

Don't mind you guys bantering, just take it to it's proper place is all I'm saying.

 

What's the proper place?

 

We blind today?:dunno:

[a700hitter]

Is there anything to be decided besides the utility infielder? Seems the roster is shaping up to be:

 

SP Josh Beckett

SP Jon Lester

SP Daisuke Matsuzaka

SP Brad Penny

SP Tim Wakefield

 

RP Ramon Ramirez

RP Manny Delcarmen

RP Javier Lopez

RP Justin Masterson

RP Takashi Saito

RP Hideki Okajima

RP Jonathan Papelbon

 

CF Jacoby Ellsbury

2B Dustin Pedroia

DH David Ortiz

1B Kevin Youkilis

LF Jason Bay

RF JD Drew

3B Mike Lowell

C Jason Varitek

SS Jed Lowrie

 

BN George Kottaras

BN Rocco Baldelli

BN Chris Carter

BN Nick Green?

 

Carter has won the job over Bailey? Has Bailey been sent down?

[BSN07]

It's hard to see Carter going down after his spring. Him hitting LH on a bench that is LH heavy is probably the biggest thing holding him back now. That and his ultimately average glove.

[Dojji]

I believe Bailey's with the team on a minor league contract. Unlike Carter he'd have to be added to the 40-man to make the team. Also the positions Carter plays or can bump Youkilis to play are all filled with righthanders, giving a platoon edge, in theory, to the lefthanded Carter.

 

Also, we're not lefty heavy. Kottaras is our only LHH that is definitely sitting on the bench and we have 3 LHH's in the lineup. Throw in 1 more lefty and that's just about right, actually. There's certainly more room for Carter than there was in 2008 when our only righthanded hitter on the bench was Cash (alongside Cora, Kotsay/Moss, and Casey).

[riverside sluggers]

Its just a ST game but Chip Ambres hit a 3 run walkoff HR against the Cards

[Dojji]

Its just a ST game but Chip Ambres hit a 3 run walkoff HR against the Cards

 

Ed Rogers hit a walkoff grand slam against (IIRC) the Twins and had a titanic spring, and still has yet to sniff the majors again since his brief 2005 and 2006 cameos.

 

Heck, Kevin Cash hit a game-winning HR against the cards in a regular season game last year. He's still Kevin Cash.

 

Ambres is intriguing because of good AAA numbers but in the final analysis the guy's the definition of AAAA. If Baldelli and Drew are hurt at the same time you might see him in midseason as a desperation option, but otherwise I doubt he sniffs the big leagues again.

[Dojji]

Lugo's recovery going according to plan. He'll be back in mid-April.

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090327&content_id=4074892&vkey=news_bos&fext=.jsp&c_id=bos