2009 Spring Training

[ORS]

If you want to think that. Personally I think that debate revealed more about Crespo. I make a post that mentions Johnson briefly in a positive light, while mostly talking about the potential for an awesome Boston rotation of Beckett-Lester-Daisuke-Smoltz-Buchholz (with Bowden and, yes, Johnson still in the minors as reserves), he goes postal. Just because I mentioned Johnson. He can own that ground just as hard as he wants to.

 

At some point it's like talking to a brick wall. Or maybe more like getting into a wrestling match with a crap golem. Even if you win he still covers you with crap.

Wow, you really like to play the victim card when these are messes of your own making. Nobody went postal, he just said Johnson sucks, which, to this point, not many reasonable people would object to, but you don't fall in that group I guess. No, rather than leave well enough alone, you felt the need to explain yourself and dug the hole deeper. The resulting replies were warranted.

 

You aren't a victim, so just stick to the lovely filth, Dennis.

[Dojji]

I'm sorry, but when a chance, offhand commend of mine that was tangential at best to the actual thrust of my post inspires that sheer level of rantage, I think my objection is justified, ORS. Particularly when Crespo has the gall to say I am misrepresenting HIS argument.

[TheKilo]

Wow, you really like to play the victim card when these are messes of your own making. Nobody went postal, he just said Johnson sucks, which, to this point, not many reasonable people would object to, but you don't fall in that group I guess. No, rather than leave well enough alone, you felt the need to explain yourself and dug the hole deeper. The resulting replies were warranted.

 

You aren't a victim, so just stick to the lovely filth, Dennis.

 

Owned. So. Freaking. Hard.

 

Dojji, you should stop.

[CrespoBlows]

If you want to think that. Personally I think that debate revealed more about Crespo. I make a post that mentions Johnson briefly in a positive light, while mostly talking about the potential for an awesome Boston rotation of Beckett-Lester-Daisuke-Smoltz-Buchholz (with Bowden and, yes, Johnson still in the minors as reserves), he goes postal. Just because I mentioned Johnson. He can own that ground just as hard as he wants to.

 

At some point it's like talking to a brick wall. Or maybe more like getting into a wrestling match with a crap golem. Even if you win he still covers you with crap.

 

dojji is sad feva

[ORS]

I'm sorry' date=' but when a chance, offhand commend of mine that was tangential at best to the actual thrust of my post inspires that sheer level of rantage, I think my objection is justified, ORS. Particularly when Crespo has the gall to say[b'] I [/b]am misrepresenting HIS argument.

I agree that Johnson was not the central focus of your OP. I also think it's a gross mischaracterization to call a two word reply a rant. The brevity of his reply was befitting the importance you assign to that individual in your original point.

[CrespoBlows]

I'm sorry' date=' [b']but when a chance, offhand commend of mine that was tangential at best to the actual thrust of my post inspires that sheer level of rantage, I think my objection is justified, ORS.[/b] Particularly when Crespo has the gall to say I am misrepresenting HIS argument.

 

I think it's because you're a flaming douchebag.

[Dojji]

Does Darvish have any of those 684-pitch outings like Dice-K has on his resume?

 

Probably, actually. The guy completes about 33% of his games in he Japanese league where they aren't as big on pitch counts. But I don't know where to get pitch count numbers from NPB.

 

The guy has such a low WHIP that I can't imagine him getting into ehough trouble to rack up titanic pitch counts though. He's allowed substantially less than a baserunner an inning in each of the last 2 years. In 2007 he had a .080 WHIP -- ridiculously absurd for a starter. The guy makes vintage Curt Schilling look like Daniel Cabrera.

[Dojji]

I agree that Johnson was not the central focus of your OP. I also think it's a gross mischaracterization to call a two word reply a rant. The brevity of his reply was befitting the importance you assign to that individual in your original point.

 

Whatever. I overreacted, he overreacted. At his point it just needs to die.

[CrespoBlows]

Whatever. I overreacted' date=' [b']he overreacted[/b]. At his point it just needs to die.

 

Again, your words.

[Dojji]

You really want to carry this forward beyond reason don't you?

 

Just o recap: My "words" were that Johnson is a legitimate starting pitching prospect. You started this mess off proper by mocking my argument as "devoid of logic." You then add two good arguments (his WHIP and his standing on he prospect boards) to about 45 pounds of pure concentrated argumentum ad homenim.

 

I believe your actual words were that Johnson was a "walk machine." Which actually isn't he case -- Johnson's got about a 2:1 bb/k ratio and his bb/9 ratio is not particularly good, but survivable at 3.7. His problem is hits, not walks. Furthermore Kris Johnson was drafted old at age 21 and has a grand total of about 300 professional innings under his belt, and he's he same age as Bard. He was overdrafted, and started out overrated as a result, but he pendulum has swing way too far in the other direction IMHO.

 

I happen to think Johnson got burnt by Lancaster as much as anything. Spending your first pro season getting lit up in the California League is a great way to start off on he wrong foot -- and to get sold way short by a lot of impatient people who expect first rounders to instantly dominate regardless. He's got to develop some more to make it into the big leagues, but he's more than talented enough to make it if he starts off well this year.

 

Instead of throwing him under he bus because of mediocre numbers while he's still adjusting to pro ball, I think a bit of patience is in order with the guy. He's only entering his age 24 season his year and he's got a good pedigree. He's at least pitched well enough put himself in position where a good year will help restore his status to some extent, and he's got more than an even shot at big league innings within he next 2 years if he impresses.

 

Johnson was hardly he only Sox pitching prospect burnt badly by Lancaster (see Bard, Daniel) and Bard was able to rebound, I think Johnson will as well. Time will tell I guess. Point is, there's plenty of reason for optimism with this guy, especially if he can somehow get his college curve back.

[CrespoBlows]

You really want to carry this forward beyond reason don't you?

 

Why the f*** would you say something this stupid? You wanted to let it die, and now you are responding.

 

Just o recap: My "words" were that Johnson is a legitimate starting pitching prospect. You started this mess off proper by mocking my argument as "devoid of logic." You then add two good arguments (his WHIP and his standing on he prospect boards) to about 45 pounds of pure concentrated argumentum ad homenim.

 

I attack the person's position, and then I'll attack the person when it is warranted. I see no logical fallacy here. You are a douche. That is as good as a point as any of the other ones.

 

I believe your actual words were that Johnson was a "walk machine." Which actually isn't he case -- Johnson's got about a 2:1 bb/k ratio and his bb/9 ratio is not particularly good, but survivable at 3.7. His problem is hits, not walks.

 

His BB/9 ratio isn't good, but that's not the problem? You can't even keep track of your argument two seconds after you began it.

 

Furthermore Kris Johnson was drafted old at age 21 and has a grand total of about 300 professional innings under his belt, and he's he same age as Bard. He was overdrafted, and started out overrated as a result, but he pendulum has swing way too far in the other direction IMHO.

 

Wrong. Bard is a year and four months younger than Johnson. Why do you keep bringing up Bard? Bard dominated two levels, and he's dominating spring training. He's a top 100 prospect, Johnson is not.

 

I happen to think Johnson got burnt by Lancaster as much as anything. Spending your first pro season getting lit up in the California League is a great way to start off on he wrong foot -- and to get sold way short by a lot of impatient people who expect first rounders to instantly dominate regardless. He's got to develop some more to make it into the big leagues, but he's more than talented enough to make it if he starts off well this year.

 

I don't expect much from this guy, and I won't be impressed if he does well in Portland this year. He'll be there for a second year, and he's a bit old for the league.

 

Instead of throwing him under he bus because of mediocre numbers while he's still adjusting to pro ball, I think a bit of patience is in order with the guy. He's only entering his age 24 season his year and he's got a good pedigree. He's at least pitched well enough put himself in position where a good year will help restore his status to some extent, and he's got more than an even shot at big league innings within he next 2 years if he impresses.

 

Stop saying he's pitched well enough. He's had a 1.49 WHIP. That isn't good. That's middle relief filler numbers.

 

Johnson was hardly he only Sox pitching prospect burnt badly by Lancaster last year (see Bard, Daniel) and Bard was able to rebound, I think Johnson will as well. Time will tell I guess. Point is, there's plenty of reason for optimism with this guy, especially if he can somehow get his college curve back.

 

A scout recently called Bard's fastball "the best he had ever seen." Bard was lauded by scouts when he entered the draft. You do this a lot. You try to find an example that would justify Johnson's failure and use it as why we should be optimistic. No matter how different the prospect is to Johnson.

[CrespoBlows]

 

You aren't a victim, so just stick to the lovely filth, Dennis.

 

Greatest scene from The Holy Grail.

[Dojji]

Why the f*** would you say something this stupid? You wanted to let it die' date=' and now you are responding. [/quote']

 

Because you keep poking and nagging and trying to get in the last word.

His BB/9 ratio isn't good, but that's not the problem? You can't even keep track of your argument two seconds after you began it.

 

There is no contradiction here. Command isn't the problem because a a lot of lefthanders the same age and level of development do struggle with command, and also because he's relatively inexperienced. Consistency should come with time, if his stuff is good enough. I fail to understand exactly why that's so hard to understand.

 

Wrong. Bard is a year and four months younger than Johnson. Why do you keep bringing up Bard? Bard dominated two levels, and he's dominating spring training. He's a top 100 prospect, Johnson is not.

 

To the best of my recollection, this is the first post where I've mentioned Bard in this thread, at least as part of this argument. And there are some similarities, which I'll get into as we go along. If you're going to respond to my posts it would really help if you actually read them.

 

As for relative age, both players completed their age 23 seasons. That's close enough IMHO to be just an argument over semantics.

I don't expect much from this guy, and I won't be impressed if he does well in Portland this year. He'll be there for a second year, and he's a bit old for the league.

 

I'm sure Kris Johnson is just as relieved to note that he doesn't have to impress you. Just the Red Sox brass who manage his promotions.

 

Personally I don't expect Kris Johnson to stay in Portland the whole year. If he's pitching anywhere near where I think he will he'll probably be a midseason callup to Pawtucket, probably to balance Smoltz' callup to the big leagues. At least at this point trying to look ahead, unless Mills seriously surprises me I can't think of anyone else I'd rather promote at that point.

 

It should be noted that this is only KJ's third full professional season. Even if he's a bit old for AA (and really, by the time you get to AA that argument starts to become a bit frail) it's about the right experience level for him. And 24 YO is not exactly graybeard territory.

 

 

Stop saying he's pitched well enough. He's had a 1.49 WHIP. That isn't good. That's middle relief filler numbers.

 

Cherry-picking that one stat is no better than me cherry-picking his respectable ERA and K rate. Considering he's still rebounding from the blasting he took at Lancaster I see no reason why those numbers won't improve as he gains experience and confidence. Unlike the big leagues, in the minors players can be more than the sum of their numbers. Johnson is as good a breakout candidate as any.

 

A scout recently called Bard's fastball "the best he had ever seen." Bard was lauded by scouts when he entered the draft. You do this a lot. You try to find an example that would justify Johnson's failure and use it as why we should be optimistic. No matter how different the prospect is to Johnson.

 

Certainly, Bard has better stuff, that's why he rebounded quicker. I challenge you to deny that the Lancaster Effect had a big part to play in why Bard struggled so much in 2007 though. Also, Johnson managed, at least so far, to remain in the rotation, while Bard's maltreatment at the hands of the California League was enough to end his time as a starting pitching prospect. I'd call that a mitigating factor.

[jacksonianmarch]

It isnt just that Johnson has poor command, he gets hit very hard. All of the pitchers Dojji put up there who had spotty command also had lights out stuff and were hard to hit. This guy has mediocre stuff, poor command and limited endurance. Hell, even the soxprospects blurb on him wasnt upbeat like it on for 99% of the players on their list. Kris Johnson is a middle reliever in the big leagues at best. He doesnt have the endurance or the command to be a starter and he doesnt have the stuff to setup or close. He's not a top prospect at all.

[Dojji]

It isnt just that Johnson has poor command' date=' he gets hit very hard. All of the pitchers Dojji put up there who had spotty command also had lights out stuff and were hard to hit. This guy has mediocre stuff, poor command and limited endurance. Hell, even the soxprospects blurb on him wasnt upbeat like it on for 99% of the players on their list. Kris Johnson is a middle reliever in the big leagues at best. He doesnt have the endurance or the command to be a starter and he doesnt have the stuff to setup or close. He's not a top prospect at all.[/quote']

 

Everyone has gone out of their way to admit that Johnson is not a top prospect. Personally I think the people who are here doubting Johnson are doing so on very flimsy evidence. The numbers you're quoting are from a guy 2 years into his pro baseball experience, it's really not particularly surprising that there's positives and negatives to it.

[jacksonianmarch]

flimsy evidence? He was a college pitcher, so he should end up being at least useful at the minor league level by the end of his second full season (not to mention the 14 games he pitched in 2006). And his stuff doesnt lie. Low 90s FB at best, weak off speed offerings, no deception and no command. It isnt like this is a DSL signee or a HS signee. This is a college pitcher who should be close to fully developed OR have such amazing stuff that he's worth the wait for his command to come.

[CrespoBlows]

Because you keep poking and nagging and trying to get in the last word.

 

Never said anything about wanting to let it die. You're the one who sulked about being a victim. The heights of doucheism.

 

There is no contradiction here. Command isn't the problem because a a lot of lefthanders the same age and level of development do struggle with command, and also because he's relatively inexperienced. Consistency should come with time, if his stuff is good enough. I fail to understand exactly why that's so hard to understand.

 

He's 24. He's a college trained pitcher. It's hard to understand, because you keep making stuff up to suit your argument. Why haven't I heard a single scout rave about how Kris Johnson is an awesome pitcher. I'll admit, I was high on Johnson prior to the 2008 season, but I've soured on him, because he hasn't shown any ability to control his pitches. He's listed as the 29th best prospect at soxprospects. As much as soxprospects swallows the load of any prospect that goes through the system, that's pretty low. He wasn't listed in the top 15 by BP, or BA.

 

 

To the best of my recollection, this is the first post where I've mentioned Bard in this thread, at least as part of this argument.

 

Never claimed otherwise. This is getting annoying.

 

And there are some similarities, which I'll get into as we go along. If you're going to respond to my posts ]it would really help if you actually read them.

 

Irony.

 

As for relative age, both players completed their age 23 seasons. That's close enough IMHO to be just an argument over semantics.

 

No, it is not. Bard is a full year younger than Johnson. When he was twenty-two he had an absurd 43/4 K:BB ratio. Johnson could never touch that.

 

I'm sure Kris Johnson is just as relieved to note that he doesn't have to impress you. Just the Red Sox brass who manage his promotions.

 

Weak.

 

 

Personally I don't expect Kris Johnson to stay in Portland the whole year. If he's pitching anywhere near where I think he will he'll probably be a midseason callup to Pawtucket, probably to balance Smoltz' callup to the big leagues. At least at this point trying to look ahead, unless Mills seriously surprises me I can't think of anyone else I'd rather promote at that point.

 

Tazawa. He's a much better prospect than Johnson, and I think he'll be in Pawtucket before.

 

 

Cherry-picking that one stat is no better than me cherry-picking his respectable ERA and K rate.

 

ERA is a misleading stat. There is a strong correlation with WHIP and ERA. If his WHIP remains in the 1.50 area, he's never going to get a chance to prove himself. It probably helped that he was getting out weaker opponents in the EL. How does he expect that respectable ERA when he moves up and faces better opponents? His ERA would definitely go up.

 

 

Considering he's still rebounding from the blasting he took at Lancaster I see no reason why those numbers won't improve as he gains experience and confidence. Unlike the big leagues, in the minors players can be more than the sum of their numbers. Johnson is as good a breakout candidate as any.

 

He's going to be moving up to a level where many pitchers fail to adjust. Johnson hasn't even proved that he can pitch above average at Portland.

 

 

 

Certainly, Bard has better stuff, that's why he rebounded quicker. I challenge you to deny that the Lancaster Effect had a big part to play in why Bard struggled so much in 2007 though.

 

Why would I do that? I'm more concered about Johnson's mediocre numbers in Portland.

 

Also, Johnson managed, at least so far, to remain in the rotation, while Bard's maltreatment at the hands of the California League was enough to end his time as a starting pitching prospect. I'd call that a mitigating factor.

 

No, because many scouts believed that Bard could dominate in shorter stints. I don't see a consensus with that on Johnson. Johnson doesn't have near the stuff that Bard does. The two can't be compared.

[Dojji]

By the end of the year he was. IIRC Johnson had a bit of a second half surge and was looking like a total sunk cost around the ASB.

 

Also, have you looked at Johnson's college numbers? They're actially pretty comparable with his AA ones this year, or even worse. We should have been under no illusion that he wasn't a project and I don't think the Red Sox brass are under that illusion. That's why I said he was overdrafted. That said he's shown consistent improvement over his 2 professional years. I don't see any reason why that trend wont continue.

[CrespoBlows]

By the end of the year he was. IIRC Johnson had a bit of a second half surge and was looking like a total sunk cost around the ASB.

 

Also, have you looked at Johnson's college numbers? They're actially pretty comparable with his AA ones this year, or even worse. We should have been under no illusion that he wasn't a project and I don't think the Red Sox brass are under that illusion. That's why I said he was overdrafted. That said he's shown consistent improvement over his 2 professional years. I don't see any reason why that trend wont continue.

 

Consistent improvement? Only if you count his ERA drop without factoring in his environment. His WHIP, K/9 rates, and BB/9 rates have remained stagnant.

[jacksonianmarch]

Where? His ERA? Yeah, but ERA rarely tells the whole story. His BB/9 and his H/9 were nearly identical as was his 1.49WHIP. I dont know why you love this guy so much. Think about it objectively.

 

If he is a project, then what are they hoping to accomplish?

Is he a guy with lights out stuff an no command? No. Guys with lights out stuff typically dont give up nearly 10H/9IP and they would typically K more than 7/9IP in AA.

 

Is he a guy with good command and developing stuff? No, because he walked nearly 4 batters per 9IP in AA.

 

Is he a guy who would benefit from a change in role? Well, according to soxprospects.com, yeah. He is usually ok for the first 2 innings and then falls off the cliff. Okay, second question in that line of questioning, is he a guy who is a possible lefty closer or setup man? Not really. Most closers have lights out stuff, and he doesnt as evidenced by the first question we talked about above. Is he a lefty specialist? No at this point because he doesnt completely dominate them.

 

In short, Johnson is a guy with marginal stuff, poor command and limited endurance. If he wasnt left handed, I would say this guy has no shot at being a big league pitcher at all. That he is a lefty likely limits him to relief work in the future. Hardly a top prospect. I do agree that stats rarely tell the whole story, especially in the minors. But there are things you can look for in pitchers lines that tell you what kind of stuff they have. His numbers are average or bad all around

[BoSox21]

Hardly a top prospect.

 

For the sake of all us, stop using the term top prospect cause you really are the only one doing so.

[jacksonianmarch]

Befitting the #10 guy in starter depth. But he could probably be better than Zink at any rate. I was just mentioning him mostly because he's still considered a legit prospect and he'd still be there behind' date=' Smoltz, Buchholz, Bowden, and Masterson[/quote']

 

sorry, he said legit prospect, not top. My bad

[Dojji]

 

 

He's 24. He's a college trained pitcher. It's hard to understand, because you keep making stuff up to suit your argument.

 

Kris Johnson isn't your typical college pitcher, especially if you look at the year he had just before we drafted him.

 

Why haven't I heard a single scout rave about how Kris Johnson is an awesome pitcher.

 

Because he started out overrated and the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction. Also because people worship the 93+ MPH fastball far too much.

 

I'll admit, I was high on Johnson prior to the 2008 season, but I've soured on him, because he hasn't shown any ability to control his pitches. He's listed as the 29th best prospect at soxprospects. As much as soxprospects swallows the load of any prospect that goes through the system, that's pretty low. He wasn't listed in the top 15 by BP, or BA.

 

Quite honestly, the trend of SP to universally inflate their prospects doesn't really exist. Other than a few diehard advocates of this or that player Soxprospects is very much a "What have you done for me lately?" kind of organization. Player does well, he gets overrated. Player struggles, he gets thrown under the bus.

 

Kris Johnson doesn't get a lot of play there, either in the forums or on the website, in fact he's a bit of a forgotten man. If anything, that'd swing the ratings in the other direction, especially at Soxprospects.

 

 

 

Never claimed otherwise. This is getting annoying.

 

Would be nice to know why you thought I "keep mentioning Bard" then. I'd mentioned him a grand total of twice.

 

No, it is not. Bard is a full year younger than Johnson. When he was twenty-two he had an absurd 43/4 K:BB ratio. Johnson could never touch that.

 

You'd better tell Baseball Reference then, it has them both down as 23 last year

http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=34013

http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=31147

 

When he was 22 Bard was getting lit up in Lancaster and Greenville, and Bard put up those ridiculous k/bb numbers you like so much the next year with the Greenville Drive. A 22-23 year old with a 100 MPH fastball dominating mid-A ball for half a season isn't quite the same as a 23-24 year old hovering around average at the AA level all year. Personally I give the advantage to the AA player, at least until they're both playing at the same level.

 

Tazawa. He's a much better prospect than Johnson, and I think he'll be in Pawtucket before.

 

I thought of that, but Tazawa is completely unproven in American ball and was playing in Japanese independent ball, which is basically A-ball level competition. Even if he's a good bet to eventually outperform Johnson, and he probably is, I still think Johnson gets promoted first as long as he manages not to completely suck. I think Tazawa gets promoted closer to midseason, and only if he blows the door down. If nothing else, the team is going to want to see how other hitters at the AA level respond to seeing him more than once, and that takes awhile to establish.

 

We did that with guys like Buchholz, so that's no slight to Tazawa. In fact while I doubt it'll happen this way Tazawa might even spend a full year in Portland depending on how he does and whether the team needs to slow-track him for roster reasons. It could happen that way and still put Tazawa on track for a midseason callup to the big leagues in 2010.

 

 

ERA is a misleading stat. There is a strong correlation with WHIP and ERA. If his WHIP remains in the 1.50 area, he's never going to get a chance to prove himself. It probably helped that he was getting out weaker opponents in the EL. How does he expect that respectable ERA when he moves up and faces better opponents? His ERA would definitely go up.

 

He's going to be moving up to a level where many pitchers fail to adjust. Johnson hasn't even proved that he can pitch above average at Portland.

 

Obviously I'm counting on him to get his act together and improve that number in AA. He doesn't even really need to improve it very much to get it out of the red zone -- get it down about .10 and he's OK.

 

Now granted if he struggles in his second year of AA then he really will be what you guys say he is but I think he should have that extra year of what might best be referred to as suspended disbelief. He's only been in our system for about 2 years, I don't think anyone can say the guy is the sum of his numbers and no more.

[jacksonianmarch]

Now you're just making s*** up.

[Dojji]

Now you're just making s*** up.

 

Nah, if I was making stuff up I wouldn't be as down on the guy as I am. If I didn't have to defend against the overaggressive negativism of Crespo I'd probably be a bit more critical of Johnson myself. Frankly the only think that puts Johnson above the Kason Gabbard/Devern Hansack types is that he's somewhat less injury prone. However he's still young enough to improve and I don't like giving up on prospects at the first sign of disappointment.

[CrespoBlows]

Kris Johnson isn't your typical college pitcher' date=' especially if you look at the year he had just before we drafted him.[/quote']

 

What the f*** does this even mean? What is a typical college pitcher?

 

 

Because he started out overrated and the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction. Also because people worship the 93+ MPH fastball far too much.

 

Usually when that happens, the pitcher has done something to warrant it. Mainly, not pitch well.

 

 

 

Quite honestly, the trend of SP to universally inflate their prospects doesn't really exist. Other than a few diehard advocates of this or that player Soxprospects is very much a "What have you done for me lately?" kind of organization. Player does well, he gets overrated. Player struggles, he gets thrown under the bus.

 

 

 

Kris Johnson doesn't get a lot of play there, either in the forums or on the website, in fact he's a bit of a forgotten man. If anything, that'd swing the ratings in the other direction, especially at Soxprospects.

 

I could care less about soxprospects ratings. Baseballprospectus and BaseballAmerica all have Johnson out of their top 15. He's a forgotten man no matter the source.

 

 

Would be nice to know why you thought I "keep mentioning Bard" then. I'd mentioned him a grand total of twice.

 

Again, I never claimed otherwise.

 

 

 

You'd better tell Baseball Reference then, it has them both down as 23 last year

http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=34013

http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=31147

 

Convienent of you to use a source that would subtract a year off Johnson, and add a year to Bard. Wouldn't it be easier to just use THEIR f***ING REAL AGE? Nope, doesn't suit your argument.

 

When he was 22 Bard was getting lit up in Lancaster and Greenville, and Bard put up those ridiculous k/bb numbers you like so much the next year with the Greenville Drive. A 22-23 year old with a 100 MPH fastball dominating mid-A ball for half a season isn't quite the same as a 23-24 year old hovering around average at the AA level all year. Personally I give the advantage to the AA player, at least until they're both playing at the same level.

 

Bard then went on to dominate Portland, and has pitched very well in the spring. If you want to give credit to Johnson, than that's indicitive of how much a dumbass you are, and how far you'll toss objectivity out the window.

 

 

I thought of that, but Tazawa is completely unproven in American ball and was playing in Japanese independent ball, which is basically A-ball level competition. Even if he's a good bet to eventually outperform Johnson, and he probably is, I still think Johnson gets promoted first as long as he manages not to completely suck. I think Tazawa gets promoted closer to midseason, and only if he blows the door down. If nothing else, the team is going to want to see how other hitters at the AA level respond to seeing him more than once, and that takes awhile to establish.

 

We did that with guys like Buchholz, so that's no slight to Tazawa. In fact while I doubt it'll happen this way Tazawa might even spend a full year in Portland depending on how he does and whether the team needs to slow-track him for roster reasons. It could happen that way and still put Tazawa on track for a midseason callup to the big leagues in 2010.

 

Tazawa looked excellent in the spring, and has a much higher upside than Johnson does. There's a stronger possiblity of him blowing batters away at AA, than Johnson has. I think they should promote the better prospect.

 

Obviously I'm counting on him to get his act together and improve that number in AA. He doesn't even really need to improve it very much to get it out of the red zone -- get it down about .10 and he's OK.

 

Now granted if he struggles in his second year of AA then he really will be what you guys say he is but I think he should have that extra year of what might best be referred to as suspended disbelief. He's only been in our system for about 2 years, I don't think anyone can say the guy is the sum of his numbers and no more.

 

I didn't say "write him off." I said this guy is a middle reliever. How many prospects make it that far?

[CrespoBlows]

Way too much discussion for a guy (Johnson) who will most likely end up being a Kason Gabbard-ish throw-in on a deadline deal

 

Go away if you don't want to talk about what we are talking about.

[Dojji]

What the f*** does this even mean? What is a typical college pitcher?

 

You guys described one pretty well already -- a polished player that didn't need that much more development. That's not, and never was, Johnson.

Usually when that happens, the pitcher has done something to warrant it. Mainly, not pitch well.

 

Granted. But "hasn't pitched well" and "can't pitch well" are two different things.

 

 

I could care less about soxprospects ratings. Baseballprospectus and BaseballAmerica all have Johnson out of their top 15. He's a forgotten man no matter the source.

 

Yeah, Johnson isn't in the national rankings. My point is that I think he's a bit underrated, you come back with how he's rated. Way to state the obvious.

 

 

 

 

Again, I never claimed otherwise.

 

Why do you keep bringing up Bard?

 

As you like to say, your words not mine.

Bard then went on to dominate Portland, and has pitched very well in the spring. If you want to give credit to Johnson, than that's indicitive of how much a dumbass you are, and how far you'll toss objectivity out the window.

 

That really has nothing to do with what I'm talking about and is tangential at best to anything I said. You're the one who's making a big fuss about bringing Bard in here. I only used him as an example of another pitcher who got off to a bad start because of the Lancaster Effect.

 

Is it even possible for me to use a limited analogy in this or any other forum without some addlepated goofball carrying it 20 times farther than I ever intended to and then attempting to impale me on his own strawman that he made for himself way out on left field that has nothing to do with anything I ever said?

 

 

Tazawa looked excellent in the spring, and has a much higher upside than Johnson does. There's a stronger possiblity of him blowing batters away at AA, than Johnson has. I think they should promote the better prospect.

 

That would be monumentally foolish, and this from a guy who's generally in favor of aggressive promotion schedules. You promote the guy who's ready. Johnson has a year of experience at the AA level even if that year was not very good, and Tazawa has no experience at all in American baseball. It would be absolutely insane to promote Tazawa over Johnson, unless Johnson spends his year pitching his way out of professional baseball altogether.

 

And even if Johnson sucks, there's NFW the Sox promote Tazawa much before July because Tazawa will need to have at least 12-15 starts before they'll even think about a move. He'll need to work through the league several times and face the same hitters multiple times before the team will see what it needs to see from him at AA

 

I didn't say "write him off." I said this guy is a middle reliever. How many prospects make it that far?

 

And since I was specifically talking about Johnson as a starter, that counts as writing him off.

[BSN07]

2+ pages about Kris Johnson, really?

[CrespoBlows]

You guys described one pretty well already -- a polished player that didn't need that much more development. That's not' date=' and never was, Johnson.[/quote']

 

Other than truly elite pitchers like Strasburg, I would say most college pitchers need more development.

 

Granted. But "hasn't pitched well" and "can't pitch well" are two different things.

 

Call it what you want, but I see no reason for optimistic outlooks on Johnson.

 

 

Yeah, Johnson isn't in the national rankings. My point is that I think he's a bit underrated, you come back with how he's rated. Way to state the obvious.

 

A bit underrated? So you mean like the 24th best prospect in the system? Maybe the 20th? Still s***.

 

As you like to say, your words not mine.

 

f***ing Christ, you have to be the most literal person on the site. I was referring to your argument, in which you brought up Bard. I didn't mention anything about you doing it before. I think using Bard in this argument just once is an excess. The two aren't similar.

 

That really has nothing to do with what I'm talking about and is tangential at best to anything I said. You're the one who's making a big fuss about bringing Bard in here. I only used him as an example of another pitcher who got off to a bad start because of the Lancaster Effect.

 

OH, BECUZ TAHT HAPPEN 2 BARD N HE PITCH GOOD AFTER MABEY JOHNSON WIL PTIC GUD 2. Simple, absurd connection.

 

Is it even possible for me to use a limited analogy in this or any other forum without some addlepated goofball carrying it 20 times farther than I ever intended to and then attempting to impale me on his own strawman that he made for himself way out on left field that has nothing to do with anything I ever said?

 

It definitely is possible. I have been receptive to numerous analogies made on this site. From you? No, because you aren't capable of making a sound one.

 

 

 

That would be monumentally foolish, and this from a guy who's generally in favor of aggressive promotion schedules. You promote the guy who's ready. Johnson has a year of experience at the AA level even if that year was not very good, and Tazawa has no experience at all in American baseball. It would be absolutely insane to promote Tazawa over Johnson, unless Johnson spends his year pitching his way out of professional baseball altogether.

 

If Tazawa is blowing hitters away in AA ball, it's because he's too good for the level. He needs to be with players that are at his level of competition. The one problem I have with the Red Sox front office is that they baby their prospects, because IT MITE RUIN THEM. Sorry, I don't buy it. If it does, I don't want those *******s on our team.

 

And since I was specifically talking about Johnson as a starter, that counts as writing him off.

 

Abstract terms like that one vary from person to person. I think my projection is pretty realistic.