Sox ink Saito

[a700hitter]

The Yankees have spent 400M+ this offseason. the Sox have spent under 20M. TB even less then that. And the Division could go to any of the 3.

That's not a valid comparison. How much will the yankees pay the new acquisitions in 2009. Compare that to the $20 million spent by the Red Sox.

[example1]

For instance' date=' if I was comparing the Mets off season to the Red Sox, the Mets filled their biggest need -- a closer. The Red Sox need a reliable starter. IMO, the Mets had a better off season. [/quote']

 

A team improving to the point where it can compete in its own division vs. a team that already can compete in its own division is all I see. I don't know about 'better off-season' or 'worse off-season', it seems like a totally arbitrary and subjective evaluation. The Mets had glaring needs, the Sox didn't. The Met's had obvious places to turn for their needs, the Sox--whose needs are less to begin with--had only one obvious play (Teixeira). The rest is just tinkering. Each team's needs are different and each team's need to improve is different, so judging one team's haul vs. another team's haul seems like a pretty poor way of determining who had a 'better' offseason. That isn't where the race actually happens, it happens on the field.

 

That doesn't mean that I wanted KRod. We don't need a closer. They improved their team more than we did.

 

Again, it seems like an arbitrary way of evaluating these things. Maybe it's just an arbitrary thing to evaluate.

 

Snottiness is always good in a discussion.

 

So is dripping sarcasm.

 

IMO cost/win stats are very unreliable, and if you have the lowest cost/win stat what's the point if you have less wins than your competition?

 

Right, if it doesn't come with wins it doesn't matter. The Red Sox have won 90+ games for 7 of the last 8 seasons or so. You know the players they have and you know that they're going to give you wins. Additionally, if a player (like Burnett) has not demonstrated that he can add W's to his team, but he costs a lot of money, doesn't it make sense that its a bad deal?

 

I have seen some great Red Sox teams that were decimated by the fact that they didn't have a good closer. The teams in the 1970's were a prime example. I think the 1976 team lost something like 30 or so games in the 8th or 9th inning. I have never seen a closer like Papelbon in a Red Sox uniform in more than 40 years. If his health holds up, they should make him the highest paid closer. He's worth it.

 

We will see.

[WhiskeyBreath]

I like the addition. Saito has been dominant during his time in LA and I hope he can get through his elbow problems and contribute to the Sox pen this season.

[a700hitter]

Again' date=' it seems like an arbitrary way of evaluating these things. Maybe it's just an arbitrary thing to evaluate.[/quote']How is a comparison between two teams regarding heir relative improvement based on personnel changes arbitrary? Sportwriters do it all the time in their pre-season projections.

[JimEdHOF2009]

SOSH hinting a Saltamacchia for Bowden and Bard is imminent. I would much rather have Teagarden as he is better than Salty in all areas but at least it doesn't cost us Clay... BTW, I would trade Clay for Teagarden in a heartbeat... From what I can gather, Teagarden is untouchable.

 

Looks like the 2009 Sox are taking shape. Thanks for your service Tek. It would not surprise me at all if TB signs Tek to back up Navarro and work with their young staff...Maddon is a BIG fan of Varitek.

[Cocos Disciples]

I would not trade Buch for Teagarden. At least not in a heartbeat.

 

EDIT: Also trading both Bowden and Bard for Salty isn't so attractive when we could get Montero for less than Bowden.

[Dipre]

I would not trade Buch for Teagarden. At least not in a heartbeat.

 

EDIT: Also trading both Bowden and Bard for Salty isn't so attractive when we could get Montero for less than Bowden.

 

However, if Salty were to pan out, he might hit 25+ plus with the Sox while providing average defense at least, sometimes going for the higher upside is a good idea.

 

And i know it might not mean much, but he was unstoppable in the winter leagues, that bat seems ML ready to me.....his defense however, is still questionable at best.

[schillingouttheks]

However, if Salty were to pan out, he might hit 25+ plus with the Sox while providing average defense at least, sometimes going for the higher upside is a good idea.

 

And i know it might not mean much, but he was unstoppable in the winter leagues, that bat seems ML ready to me.....his defense however, is still questionable at best.

 

I'm pretty sure in his near-future he'll be playing 1B instead of C.

[BSN07]

That's not a valid comparison. How much will the yankees pay the new acquisitions in 2009. Compare that to the $20 million spent by the Red Sox.

 

I was merely trying to exaggerate my point. That being the Sox have spent a fraction of what the Yankees have, and can still be considered a contending team in the AL East.

 

But I also get why there is moderate worry. The team has it's question marks, but really what team doesn't?:dunno:

 

 

BTW are you going to ST this season? I enjoy you first hand scouting reports very much:thumbsup:

[BSN07]

Also I'd like to add that I wasn't aware of Saito's elbow issue. I knew he had something but not that. This makes me weary alittle. But on the other hand, the team looked at his medical records so they must not be that bad right?

[BSN07]

SOSH hinting a Saltamacchia for Bowden and Bard is imminent. I would much rather have Teagarden as he is better than Salty in all areas but at least it doesn't cost us Clay... BTW, I would trade Clay for Teagarden in a heartbeat... From what I can gather, Teagarden is untouchable.

 

Looks like the 2009 Sox are taking shape. Thanks for your service Tek. It would not surprise me at all if TB signs Tek to back up Navarro and work with their young staff...Maddon is a BIG fan of Varitek.

 

And how credible is SOSH?

[MANNYHOF24]

Wait, we cant trade Bard until June 1st, right?

[BSN07]

Bard the pitcher, not the Catcher.

[Cocos Disciples]

Haha yeah, not sure anyone wants Josh.

[MANNYHOF24]

Haha, Duh.

[BSN07]

Haha' date=' Duh.[/quote']

 

No worries mate. We have all done it before:lol:

[JimEdHOF2009]

I would not trade Buch for Teagarden. At least not in a heartbeat.

 

EDIT: Also trading both Bowden and Bard for Salty isn't so attractive when we could get Montero for less than Bowden.

 

I bet Theo would.

 

I would also bet Teagarden has a MUCH better chance at being an All-Star this year and next-- than Clay.

 

Please do not make the mistake of yoking the Texas catchers into an "equally talented" triumverate. Teagarden is FAR AND AWAY the best of that bunch. He has more power, better plate discipline, and better contact skills than either Salty or Max and it really isn't close. He is also a better defensive catcher than Salty.. Max is pretty good behind the dish.

 

I think too many Boston fans know too little about Teagarden. He is ready to possibly be one of the top 5 offensive catchers in baseball this year--helped some by the launching pad in Arlington. Go look at his minor league stats along with his small sample in the Majors...they are ridiculous.

 

That being said..I can see where you are coming from Coco's D... I would like to get Salty without giving up Clay and HOPE he turns into close to what I know Teagarden will be.. If this happens, the Sox will have pullled off a major coup. I do like the fact that Salty is 2 years younger and a switchie.

[Dojji]

Bard the pitcher' date=' not the Catcher.[/quote']

 

Have to admit I was thinking Josh too and wondering how that works.

 

I'm not sure I trade both Bowden and Dan Bard, not even for Salty. That's a couple of premium heavyweight arms we're talking about.

[jacksonianmarch]

This guy has a partially torn elbow ligament. He opted not to get Tommy John surgery. I don't understand this bargain basement mentality of stockpiling players with serious physical issues. Plus, this guy is old --39 years old.

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2009/01/report_sox_sign_1.html

 

they described his elbow as "hanging on by a thread".

 

Dodgers non-tendered RHP Takashi Saito.

 

Saito has been as effective as any reliever in the game during his three years in the majors, but indications are that his elbow is hanging on by a thread and he wasn't interested in accepting an incentive-laden deal to stay on with the Dodgers. It will be interesting to see what happens next. Another large-market team could do worse than gamble $4 million or so on him.

 

He's old and he isnt healthy. He has a surgical problem. How effective do you think he'll be? You guys are delusional. What's next, sign Pedro cause his shoulder might hold up?

[a700hitter]

BTW are you going to ST this season? I enjoy you first hand scouting reports very much:thumbsup:

I'll be in Ft. Myers from march 2nd to March 7th. I usually spend a week down there, but I didn't have the time this year.

[Dojji]

they described his elbow as "hanging on by a thread".

 

 

 

He's old and he isnt healthy. He has a surgical problem. How effective do you think he'll be? You guys are delusional. What's next, sign Pedro cause his shoulder might hold up?

 

Saito's 2008 numbers are a lot closer to his peak than Pedro's 2008 numbers, but you knew that and are just being an *******.

[jacksonianmarch]

Saito's 2008 numbers are a lot closer to his peak than Pedro's 2008 numbers' date=' but you knew that and are just being an *******.[/quote']

 

Sigh. Dojji, there is a difference between a player when he's healthy and when he's not. Saito went down on July 12th with elbow pain. At that time, his numbers were...

 

41.1IP 34H 10ER 12BB 53K .221BAA 1.11WHIP 11.5K/9IP 4.4K/BB- impressive f***ing numbers

 

He then missed 2 months with an elbow injury described as being a UCL tear, something that typically is only amenable to Tommy John surgery. He did not have TJS, opting to rest and rehab instead. He returned on Sept 15th. He allowed 10 baserunners in 5+ IP in his final 6 regular season appearances. He was carried for the NLDS where his only outing consisted of 3 batters faced and all 3 getting hits. He didnt appear in any other playoff games and wasnt carried in the NLCS. Now, the dodgers, a team with a good amount of money, decided not to take a risk on him at 4+ mil in arbitration because his elbow is "hanging by a thread". IE, he had a partial to complete UCL tear. Those dont go away by resting them. Look at the writing on the wall here Dojji.

 

When healthy, Saito is nasty and very difficult to hit. But he isnt healthy. Not even close. So you have to ask yourself, what are you getting out of him? Its like the Schilling signing. What could you get out of fat Curt who has a structural injury that is only amenable to surgery? So, what can you get out of old man Saito who has a structural injury only amenable to surgery?

[Dojji]

Sigh. Dojji, there is a difference between a player when he's healthy and when he's not. Saito went down on July 12th with elbow pain. At that time, his numbers were...

 

41.1IP 34H 10ER 12BB 53K .221BAA 1.11WHIP 11.5K/9IP 4.4K/BB- impressive f***ing numbers

 

He then missed 2 months with an elbow injury described as being a UCL tear, something that typically is only amenable to Tommy John surgery. He did not have TJS, opting to rest and rehab instead. He returned on Sept 15th. He allowed 10 baserunners in 5+ IP in his final 6 regular season appearances. He was carried for the NLDS where his only outing consisted of 3 batters faced and all 3 getting hits. He didnt appear in any other playoff games and wasnt carried in the NLCS. Now, the dodgers, a team with a good amount of money, decided not to take a risk on him at 4+ mil in arbitration because his elbow is "hanging by a thread". IE, he had a partial to complete UCL tear. Those dont go away by resting them. Look at the writing on the wall here Dojji.

 

Except that at this point you're relying on your own interpretation of events as fact.

 

If your premise is true then the Dodgers cut bait because they knew Otsuka was going to suck. Frankly I'm more inclined to blame team finances. Have you noticed that the Dodgers have signed no-one and have been spending their offseason trying to reduce their payroll? I've suspected for the last couple years that the reason the Dodgers have been getting younger and cheaper is only partly related to their surge of young offensive talent.

 

Also, they couldn't promise Otsuka his old role anymore with a combination of yes, his health, and the fact that Jonathan Broxton emerged as a stud closer in his absence and is a lot younger and cheaper.

 

That's not to say that I'm not worried about Otsuka's health, but this is a guy who if he can't make it can go on the DL and retire and not clog up the roster beyond perhaps mid-May. And if he does make it he's a second closer-level arm. The downside here is maybe as many as 5-6 bad outings in the early season where they hurt the least and the upside is tremendous in an already loaded bullpen.

[jacksonianmarch]

You say Otsuka 4 times and it is Saito, lol. You dont even know who you signed

[Dojji]

Was gonna fix it then you called me on it -- no point now.

 

That's just a Dojji-ism, let it go. Point still stands. Look past the gaffe and respond to the post please.

[jacksonianmarch]

Except that at this point you're relying on your own interpretation of events as fact.

 

If your premise is true then the Dodgers cut bait because they knew Otsuka was going to suck.

 

No, they decided to cut bait because they didnt think he'd be healthy. If being on the DL is sucking then yeah, you could interpret it that way.

 

Frankly I'm more inclined to blame team finances. Have you noticed that the Dodgers have signed no-one and have been spending their offseason trying to reduce their payroll? I've suspected for the last couple years that the reason the Dodgers have been getting younger and cheaper is only partly related to their surge of young offensive talent.

 

It has nothing to do with finances. They are willing to cut 16 million as a loss with Jones. They are in the Manny mix and recently offered him 23 mil per yr for 2 yrs. 4 million dollars is not a make of break amount for the dodgers. If it was Pittsburgh or Minnesota, then maybe. But not LA

 

Also, they couldn't promise Otsuka his old role anymore with a combination of yes, his health, and the fact that Jonathan Broxton emerged as a stud closer in his absence and is a lot younger and cheaper.

 

It has nothing to do with that. Saito was in his 3rd MLB season, so the dodgers had exclusive rights to him. All they had to do was offer arbitration and they had him. Saito had no say in the matter. Arbitration would have awarded Saito 4+ mil for a 3 service yr elite MLB closer. And at 39 and with a surgical issue that rendered him useless from the AS break on, they decided to go in another direction.

 

That's not to say that I'm not worried about Otsuka's health, but this is a guy who if he can't make it can go on the DL and retire and not clog up the roster beyond perhaps mid-May. And if he does make it he's a second closer-level arm. The downside here is maybe as many as 5-6 bad outings in the early season where they hurt the least and the upside is tremendous in an already loaded bullpen.

 

I dont see too much downside here for the sox except wasting some money. And you know how I dont care about major league teams paying more than they need to. I just dont see this as an impact signing at all. Lets look at the factors.

 

1. He's 39. No spring chicken

2. He has a torn UCL, something that typically requires surgery, something he refuses to do at this juncture

3. After 2 months of rest and rehab, he came back a sub par major league reliever.

 

I understand the upside of this move. But I dont think there is even a chance he comes out in his old form. He has a serious injury that is only amenable to surgery. He's already shown symptoms from the injury. And he's already seen a massive decline in his performance from the injury. Its guaranteeing a roster spot to a guy who is damn near guaranteed to be injured, terrible or both

[BSN07]

they described his elbow as "hanging on by a thread".

 

 

 

He's old and he isnt healthy. He has a surgical problem. How effective do you think he'll be? You guys are delusional. What's next, sign Pedro cause his shoulder might hold up?

 

Your post drips on envy:lol:

 

I kid, yes there are plenty of concerns about his health. But given the depth of the BP at the moment and the fact he only cost 2M, he is not a huge risk. Now if he was being brought in as the closer, then yes your concerns for him have merit. He's a bonus at this point. Anything he gives is a +.

 

 

Given what your team has invested in this winter, you should not be calling out any signing out due to health risk's.

[jacksonianmarch]

And I understand that the sox are trying a new philosophy this yr. Improve depth and you will improve your club. But when the #1 reason for this needed depth is the sox injury filled 2008, how does adding 3 currently injured MLB vets help with that predicament?

 

And another thing it can cause, it can create a rift where there wasnt one previously. If any of these guys become a player the sox are relying on and THEN they go down, you create a hole that could have been filled by someone from start to finish. I know, its a bit esoteric. But consider this.

 

Penny fills in at #4 with Buch in AAA. He's solid for a month, then the shoulder flares again. Insert Buchholz until Smoltz is ready. No matter how Buch is doing he goes to AAA, Smoltz comes up, is good for a month, then goes down with fatigue. Up comes Buchholz again. You're yanking this kid around knowing he will get yanked around from the getgo. And for a guy with some maturity issues, that may not sit well with him. I think the sox needed to fill their #4 slot in the rotation with a guy they could count on starting 30 games. That would give Masterson, Buchholz and Bowden defined roles from beginning to end. Instead, they are all due to be yanked around and out of their schedules due to the sox added injured depth.

[riverside sluggers]

Masterson? How is going to be yanked around? He's going to open the season in the bullpen. I dont think the Sox will do what the Yankees did to Joba this past season (Bullpen, Rotation, Bullpen)

[jacksonianmarch]

Masterson? How is going to be yanked around? He's going to open the season in the bullpen. I dont think the Sox will do what the Yankees did to Joba this past season (Bullpen' date=' Rotation, Bullpen)[/quote']

 

that hadnt been decided last I checked. I saw an article this past week actually that said he might start out in AAA in the rotation.