With AJ and CC in NYC now does that make them the fav. in the east?

[diony]

Postseason stats are overrated. CC is an ace. You guys can use those 25 IPs to say he's not, but there's 1659.1 IPs that prove otherwise.

[Cocos Disciples]

Postseason stats are overrated. CC is an ace. You guys can use those 25 IPs to say he's not' date=' but there's 1659.1 IPs that prove otherwise.[/quote']

 

Concur'd. It's a simple sample size matter.

[Dipre]

And last year's horrendous postseason start should be forgiven, since he had been pitching with 3-days rest for a month.

 

That, if anything else, cemented his status as a true ace, but he is only human, so he was gassed by the time the postseason rolled around.

[Gom]

Wow...Red Sox fans have logic now. Good job...

[BoSox21]

And last year's horrendous postseason start should be forgiven, since he had been pitching with 3-days rest for a month.

 

That, if anything else, cemented his status as a true ace, but he is only human, so he was gassed by the time the postseason rolled around.

 

fine, whats the excuse for 2007 then?

[TheKilo]

fine' date=' whats the excuse for 2007 then?[/quote']

 

240 innings and a Cy Young season.

[Optimist]

Postseason stats are overrated. CC is an ace. You guys can use those 25 IPs to say he's not' date=' but there's 1659.1 IPs that prove otherwise.[/quote']

 

And last year's horrendous postseason start should be forgiven, since he had been pitching with 3-days rest for a month.

 

That, if anything else, cemented his status as a true ace, but he is only human, so he was gassed by the time the postseason rolled around.

 

Exactly, to both points.

 

Someone's definition of "ace" is being clouded by team loyalties.

[BoSox21]

so let me get this straight...

 

the fact that he pitches 241 innings in 2007 is the reason he goes right into the tank for the next 15 innings? and the fact that he pitches 253 innings in 2008 is the reason he sucked for the next 3 innings?

 

if he can be so good for 253 innings, why can't he be good for 256 innings?

 

don't tell me it all has to do with the fact that he pitched a lot of innings and nothing to do with the fact that it's he playoffs cause I find it hard to believe that his arm reaches his threshold on the last day of the regular season every year

[TheKilo]

so let me get this straight...

 

the fact that he pitches 241 innings in 2007 is the reason he goes right into the tank for the next 15 innings? and the fact that he pitches 253 innings in 2008 is the reason he sucked for the next 3 innings?

 

if he can be so good for 253 innings, why can't he be good for 256 innings?

 

don't tell me it all has to do with the fact that he pitched a lot of innings and nothing to do with the fact that it's he playoffs cause I find it hard to believe that his arm reaches his threshold on the last day of the regular season every year

 

This is a complete joke though, because you're giving far too much credence to three specific innings and not looking at the entire body of work.

 

CC's 256 innings in 2007 as a whole were excellent and he was a top 10 pitcher in all of baseball.

 

CC's 256 innings in 2008 were tremendous and he was a top 10 pitcher in all of baseball.

 

CC Sabathia is an ace. If you want to weight your argument based off of 18 innings over two seasons, that's your prerogative but it is an extremely flawed way of thinking.

[BoSox21]

I just find it funny how he doesn't allow more than 4 earned runs in any start he makes in his career as a Brewer.....until he gets to October

[BoSox21]

By the way, I'm not even necessarily debating whether he's a good postseason pitcher or not cause I totally get the small sample size argument but I'm debating his merits to being labeled an ace.

 

Like I said, I believe an ace needs to carry an impressive postseason resume and Sabathia most certainly does not

[Optimist]

Johan Santana is 1 - 3 in the post season. What does that make him?

[Cocos Disciples]

Well, which is more telling of his skills:

 

a) 686 2/3 IP, 3.03 ERA, 1.14 WHIP, 632 K (past three seasons)

25 IP, 7.92 ERA, 2.20 WHIP, 24 K

 

?

[BoSox21]

Johan Santana is 1 - 3 in the post season. What does that make him?

 

He's got a 3.97 career postseason ERA including a 1.35 ERA in 20 postseason IP since 2004? He's 1-3 cause he plays for Twins. What the f*** is your point?

[BoSox21]

Well, which is more telling of his skills:

 

a) 686 2/3 IP, 3.03 ERA, 1.14 WHIP, 632 K (past three seasons)

25 IP, 7.92 ERA, 2.20 WHIP, 24 K

 

?

 

I don't give a s*** about sample sizes. I wanna see him prove he can pitch effectively in the playoffs before I call him an ace. If you guys wanna whore out the "ace" label, by all means but my standards are a little higher.

 

And don't give me some stupid argument like "well Jeff Suppan in 2006 was lightz outtttttt in the playoffs so I guess he's an ace" cause obviously you need the regular season numbers too

[TheKilo]

Is Josh Beckett an ace?

[BoSox21]

yes

[TheKilo]

By simple logic, Sabathia is then an ace because he's been a superior pitcher to Beckett over the last three seasons.

[BoSox21]

.....except in the playoffs

[TheKilo]

You just acknowledged CC is the better overall pitcher, yet Beckett is an ace and CC is not?

[BoSox21]

I acknowledge that CC has been better in the regular season.

[BoSox21]

I'm not gonna be trapped into anything here. Beckett's done it in the regular season and postseason. Sabathia has done it in the regular season and s*** the bed in the postseason. That's my criteria.

[TheKilo]

Sabathia's done it better the last three years over more innings, and you're not going to call him an ace.

 

Awesome logic.

[ORS]

I think Calzone Crusher Sabathia deserves some blame for his playoff performance over the past couple of years. He got worked over by three different patient lineups. This is something that appears to be an issue for him in October. He's walked 17 in 19 IP. And it's not like it's one bad start blowing up the stats for the rest. He's walked 4 or more in 3 of his 4 postseason starts the last two years. Looking at his gamelog from the last two years, he's only done that 2 times over 69 starts. I think there's some sphincter pressure going on.

 

What that means in terms of "ace", I don't know. Ask the leprehcaun what he thinks. But, there may be some legitimacy to CC playing tight in the big game.

[TheKilo]

I agree he hasn't pitched well in 25 October innings, my question is why are these 25 more important than the other 1500+, when one solid postseason can turn his numbers around so quickly?

[jacksonianmarch]

Burnett' might be an ace in the last year of his contract. Which this is not.

 

That argument doesnt hold much water. His performance doesnt seem to change, but his durability sure does.

[Paradisecity]

That argument doesnt hold much water. His performance doesnt seem to change' date=' but his durability sure does.[/quote']

 

It does when he is the one asking out of pitching, which sources have indicated as been the case with the exception of the one serious injury...

[Cocos Disciples]

Was Gaylord Perry an ace?

[ORS]

I agree he hasn't pitched well in 25 October innings' date=' my question is why are these 25 more important than the other 1500+, when one solid postseason can turn his numbers around so quickly?[/quote']

Like I highlighted in my post, it isn't so much the aggregate bad stats. It's the consistent difficulty with command. He's had one start where he didn't walk the park, and he gave up 10 hits in 6 IP. That was game 5 last year, and instead of missing off the plate, I remember him missing over the plate and getting hit hard.

 

Sure, it's a small sample, but there is one consistent component there, not throwing quality strikes. For a guy who has shown an ability to do that when the pressure is a bit lower, the first logical assumption is a psychological factor.

[TheKilo]

That argument doesnt hold much water. His performance doesnt seem to change' date=' but his durability sure does.[/quote']

 

Wait, aren't you the guy who said that Drew isn't a good player not for what he can do on the field but for the fact he couldn't stay healthy?