Bill Madden trashes Cashman

[Gom]

Excerpts from Bill Madden's article in the Daily News on 8/24/08. The full article can be found here.

Yes, it would certainly seem that this is the year where youth must be served - which brings us to the Yankees, who have not been served well by what little youth they have. Phil Hughes? Ian Kennedy? Shelley Duncan?

 

Yankees GM Brian Cashman has placed most of the blame for his team's failures on the bafflingly hapless offense that even with the losses of Jorge Posada and Hideki Matsui should not be struggling so mightily to score runs. But then, when the primary culprit is the $27 million-per-year cleanup hitter, to whom the Yankees are committed for another nine years, Cashman ought to be very concerned.

...

Meanwhile, all around A-Rod, with the exception of Robinson Cano at second base and newly acquired Xavier Nady, this is an old Yankee team, soon to be in need of changes, and by 2010, a near-total overhaul.

 

It would be nice if they had a couple of young position players like the Mets' Murphy and Evans coming in the system, but they do not. They do not have a first baseman to replace Jason Giambi, or an impact center fielder, or a shortstop to spell (and eventually replace) Derek Jeter, or a second baseman who could enable them to deal the enigmatic Cano while he still has value.

 

The reason they don't have any of these players in their system is because they continue to do a terrible job of scouting and developing. They spend millions more in Latin America than almost every other team and yet the only position players from there to make the big club over the last 10 years are Alfonso Soriano, Cano and Melky Cabrera. The draft? An even bigger disgrace. Jeter, in 1992, is the last player they drafted who became a regular.

 

And the beat goes on. In this year's draft, the Yankees took pitchers with their first three picks: No. 1, Gerrit Cole, whom they did not sign because their scouts obviously didn't get to know the kid's makeup or his family situation; No. 2, Jeremy Bleich, who's going to need Tommy John surgery; and No. 3, Scott Bittle, whose arm problems were so severe they elected to pass on signing him.

 

After a while, you have to wonder what fatal attraction Cashman's player evaluators have with injured pitchers. Last year, they took North Carolina State righthander Andrew Brackman in the first round, knowing he was going to miss all of this season with Tommy John surgery. And, then, of course, there's the immortal Humberto Sanchez, purportedly the key return player in the Gary Sheffield deal with Detroit, who also underwent Tommy John surgery and is still rehabbing somewhere.

 

Cashman keeps stockpiling pitchers who come up hurt or fall on their face when they get to the big leagues. Enough! He is banking on the offense coming back next year, even though everyone will be a year older and there is nobody to step in when the inevitable injuries come. Off the way this season has gone, with young, homegrown teams such as the Rays and Twins giving their owners so much more bang for their buck, the Yankees returning to power would be an even bigger surprise.

I couldn't agree more. He took over the Yankees in 1998, so the drafting and scouting was all on him. His first three picks this year a) didn't sign required surgery c) were so damaged, the Yankees didn't sign him.

 

He needs to go. Now. I think even Jacko has to agree now.

[jacksonianmarch]

Yes, it would certainly seem that this is the year where youth must be served - which brings us to the Yankees, who have not been served well by what little youth they have. Phil Hughes? Ian Kennedy? Shelley Duncan?

 

Joba Chamberlain? Dave Robertson? Jose Veras? One point that Bill does make is that a lot of our youth underachieved in their first taste of the big show. Well, that is what rookies do. To throw a tantrum that 22 and 23 yr olds struggle in their initial steps to the bigs is, well, stupid. Oh, and Bill missed a few guys...

 

Yankees GM Brian Cashman has placed most of the blame for his team's failures on the bafflingly hapless offense that even with the losses of Jorge Posada and Hideki Matsui should not be struggling so mightily to score runs. But then, when the primary culprit is the $27 million-per-year cleanup hitter, to whom the Yankees are committed for another nine years, Cashman ought to be very concerned.

 

So Arod is the primary culprit for this team being bad? I know ARod is having another one of those strange statistical yrs when it comes to RISP (he seems to do that every other yr), but he's still an MVP candidate and to say he is the sole reason for our offense being worse is stupid. When you lose two players who have solid OBP and SLG, you will struggle. When you compound that with another reliable player playing under his talent (Cano) and another guy just totally bombing out (Melky) it magnifies things.

 

Meanwhile, all around A-Rod, with the exception of Robinson Cano at second base and newly acquired Xavier Nady, this is an old Yankee team, soon to be in need of changes, and by 2010, a near-total overhaul.

 

This is a team that is older, this is true. But this has more to do with signing big time players to big time deals and not developing during the early 2000s. Cashman and Oppenheimer have little to do with that.

 

It would be nice if they had a couple of young position players like the Mets' Murphy and Evans coming in the system, but they do not.

 

This is an insanely stupid quote. Evans and Murphy are Shelley Duncan clones. They arent perennial MVP candidates like Simmons makes them look. Idiot.

 

They do not have a first baseman to replace Jason Giambi

 

Juan Miranda says hi. He's only got an OBP near .400 and an OPS in the mid .800s.

 

or an impact center fielder

 

Austin Jackson, the likely #1 yankee prospect who will be in AAA next yr says hi

 

or a shortstop to spell (and eventually replace) Derek Jeter

 

This is something they have been working on for awhile now. Eduardo Nunez was the big INTL signee a few yrs back who was supposed to replace Jetes, but he has been average at best. In recent yrs, we have paid through the nose for Carmen Angelini and Garrison Lassiter. I would say that one of those two are likely Jeter replacements. But back to the point. This is one area that has been attempted to be rectified, but hasnt, so Bill has a point here.

 

or a second baseman who could enable them to deal the enigmatic Cano while he still has value.

 

Damon Sublett will be in AA next yr, David Adams in A+, Corban Joseph in A. Our depth at 2b seems to continue to improve. If you notice, all 3 of those guys were drafted in the past 2 drafts, I have a feeling a Cano move has been mulled for awhile now. So while he complains, he doesnt even know that what he is complaining about has been going on for 2 yrs.

 

The reason they don't have any of these players in their system is because they continue to do a terrible job of scouting and developing. They spend millions more in Latin America than almost every other team and yet the only position players from there to make the big club over the last 10 years are Alfonso Soriano, Cano and Melky Cabrera. The draft? An even bigger disgrace. Jeter, in 1992, is the last player they drafted who became a regular.

 

This is another Bill Madden beauty. We werent outspending everyone in Latin America until 2005. We shelled out big bucks that yr to sign Jose Tabata. That signing got us Xavier Nady and Damaso Marte, which to be honest with you, wasnt too bad of a deal. In 2005, we also drafted and signed Austin Jackson, who happens to be our #1 prospect. Go figure. This is exactly the problem with Madden and people who think like him. They dont understand the business of minor league baseball. They dont know who pulls the strings and what goes down. But they make assumptions and then use their voice to make people think like idiots.

 

Here's the god's honest truth from one of the higher ups at scout.com and from just doing a lit search. We all know the Cashman story. He was an intern here and rose all the way to GM. What we dont know is who was actually pulling the strings for the organization. The presumption is that George was still telling Cash to make the big moves while handcuffing him in the S&D department. Do you find it interesting that since Cashman resigned and made his edict about full power that we have drafted significantly better and have put more money into the draft? This only started happening in 2006. Our draft budget tripled. We signed an INTL kid for a 2 million dollar bonus, then nabbed a bunch of high 6 figure guys in the INTL market too. Our 07 INTL and Draft budgets increased as well. And our 08 INTL budget was a top 5 once again, while the draft didnt go as hoped. And not coincidently, Damon Oppenheimer was promoted prior to 2006 to be the head of scouting and development. This is why our farm went from #28 in baseball, to a peak of anywhere from #2-#6 last yr (depending on who you read). Now, what people like Bill and Gom and some of the more impatient, less intellectually gifted people do not realize is that drafting and scouting and signing is a long term process. You dont see results right away. So while Bill is clamoring for Cashman to take some blame, he has no idea what Cashman has done since he hasnt actually seen the fruits of his labors. Pitchers vary, but college pitchers typically take a minimum of 2-3 yrs to make it to the bigs. HS pitchers, typically 3-4. College position players, assuming they arent obvious stars (Mike Moustakis comes to mind) typically jump one level at a time and then split AAA/MLB in their final yr, usually taking 3 yrs. HS position players take 4-5. If that is the case, and the budgets were finally opened in 2006, how can we even make a judgement yet?

 

Here is what I think happened, and this is where I blame Cashman. We saw the fruit of his labor a bit early. Hughes was right on track, but seeing Kennedy and Joba in 07 was surreal. Having Melky and Cano producing at the same time with Wang in the rotation was surreal. But that meteoric rise led Cashman into thinking these kids werent going to fall into what every rookie does. Injury, inconsistency, doubt, etc. He didnt have the contingency plans available to make up for rookie mistakes. This is where I blame Cashman. But to make a blanket statement that his scouting and development team is inept is just foolish and actually flat out wrong.

 

And the beat goes on. In this year's draft, the Yankees took pitchers with their first three picks: No. 1, Gerrit Cole, whom they did not sign because their scouts obviously didn't get to know the kid's makeup or his family situation; No. 2, Jeremy Bleich, who's going to need Tommy John surgery; and No. 3, Scott Bittle, whose arm problems were so severe they elected to pass on signing him.

 

I have said my piece about this draft. I liked it a lot more with Cole at the top. But from the sounds of it, the kid really and truly did a 180. If he signed, the yankees would have had a top 5 talent in their system. Now that he didnt, they'll go out and sign another top prospect with the same pick. As for Bittle, I am glad they didnt sign him. His shoulder sounds like a ticking time bomb and the option to take another pick next yr sounds like a good one.

 

After a while, you have to wonder what fatal attraction Cashman's player evaluators have with injured pitchers. Last year, they took North Carolina State righthander Andrew Brackman in the first round, knowing he was going to miss all of this season with Tommy John surgery.

 

Before the 07 draft, people were wondering who would be selected first. Price or Brackman. At the worst, Brackman was considered the #2 talent in the entire draft. So getting him in the 30th slot with the caveat of having a procedure that is 88-92% effective sounds like a good use of the pick. Complaining about this pick right now is just dumb.

 

And, then, of course, there's the immortal Humberto Sanchez, purportedly the key return player in the Gary Sheffield deal with Detroit, who also underwent Tommy John surgery and is still rehabbing somewhere.

 

Its called doing your homework. Humberto is in the GCL rehabbing his elbow. Regardless, the Sheff deal was a salary dump and at the time, the return was solid. Humberto and Whelan have had injury problems ever since and it looks like the only useful piece will be Sanchez. He'll be ready come next ST out of the pen.

 

Cashman keeps stockpiling pitchers who come up hurt or fall on their face when they get to the big leagues. Enough!

 

This is what kids do. Rookie pitchers have a high rate of injury. So stockpiling is the way to go. The franchise has spent the better part of a decade trying to find an ace to no avail. So they tried to develop one. And they might have one in Joba.

 

He is banking on the offense coming back next year, even though everyone will be a year older and there is nobody to step in when the inevitable injuries come.

 

We've gone over this one. This is grossly inaccurate

 

Off the way this season has gone, with young, homegrown teams such as the Rays and Twins giving their owners so much more bang for their buck, the Yankees returning to power would be an even bigger surprise.

 

The Rays "bang for their buck" took 3-4 yrs to develop. If given the same amount of time, the yankees will be mopping the floor with everyone just like the Rays are.

[yankees228]

I'm not going to break down the entire article right now, but when he mentions A-Rod as "the primary culprit" he loses a lot of credibility.

[Gom]

Jacko, the only person not intellectually gifted here is you.

 

Regardless of your feelings on the matter, the Yankees have NOT done a good job of drafting. You say Oppenheimer and Cashman were hamstrung? More than the Twins, or Marlins?

 

I highly doubt the Steinbrenners were that involved in the draft. Let's just say that they didn't allocate a lot of money to the draft. I would then presume that they would be in the same boat as everyone else. Probably middle of the pack. The truth is, the Yankees have done poorly in scouting and development. Cashman has had control since the late 90's. He hasn't drafted a single starting position player since he started. He's drafted ONE starter in Joba. I will say that I disagree with Madden in critiquing his free agent international signings. He did get Wang, Soriano, and Cano. I would consider that a good haul over ten years. I'm not including Japanese posted players.

 

If you're not going to put Cashman on notice for the Yankees poor drafting, then who do you put it on? I am making the assumption that he was not given a significant advantage or disadvantage. In this, he failed miserably. No one he has ever drafted, not one, is a starter today.

 

Jacko, insults aside, he has done a s***** job. We both root for the same team. We both want him to do well. However, I feel like you are taking defending Cashman as if you are defending yourself. It's not you who f***ed this up, he did. Look, I'd love it if all the players he signed ended up as stars. They haven't, so I've taken him to task for it.

 

When you say you're happy they didn't sign Bittle...THEY COULD HAVE DRAFTED SOMEONE ELSE!!!! It was a wasted pick. So was the first pick. Out of the first three picks, they got a pitcher who is damaged. You call that good Jacko? Honestly...what would be bad? If they signed a one-armed outfielder?

 

The truth is, he is touting youth, but he hasn't delivered it in the past. This is why I don't believe him when he says build from within. If we had Theo, who brought up Pedrioa, Lester, Papelbon, Lowrie...then maybe I'd buy into it. He brought up Joba, who might just be the best of them all when done, but that it. Nothing more.

 

You tout Robertson. 5.96 ERA. He's not just a good caliber reliever. You're off here.

You tout Veras. I like him. I think he has explosive stuff. I think you're on here.

 

Jacko, please don't take this as a personal insult. We both root for the same team. However, look past your arguments with me on a personal level and see that he has done a poor job. I am making the assumption that he had the same fiscal resources as the other teams for once, and not an advantage. He's failied. He has shown an inability to compete evenly when he isn't given a fiscal advantage. He's a poor GM, Jacko. He's the reason we are in the predicament we are today.

[jacksonianmarch]

Jacko' date=' the only person not intellectually gifted here is you.[/quote']

 

I am sure you and your brother fight over who is smarter as well. Needless to say, there isnt much of a contest.

 

Regardless of your feelings on the matter, the Yankees have NOT done a good job of drafting. You say Oppenheimer and Cashman were hamstrung? More than the Twins, or Marlins?

 

The Twins and Marlins routinely had 1st round draft picks and routinely picked higher. So yes. Also, the Twins and Marlins spent more money than the yankees did on their drafts in the early part of this decade.

 

I highly doubt the Steinbrenners were that involved in the draft. Let's just say that they didn't allocate a lot of money to the draft. I would then presume that they would be in the same boat as everyone else. Probably middle of the pack. The truth is, the Yankees have done poorly in scouting and development.

 

They did do poorly in the scouting and dev't realm. But that is not all Cashman. Actually, that is more the previous scouting director's fault, and he is no longer in that position. You have to go by what the current regime is doing. They (Oppenheimer and Cashman) started together in 2006.

 

Cashman has had control since the late 90's.

 

No he hasnt

 

He hasn't drafted a single starting position player since he started. He's drafted ONE starter in Joba. I will say that I disagree with Madden in critiquing his free agent international signings. He did get Wang, Soriano, and Cano. I would consider that a good haul over ten years. I'm not including Japanese posted players.

 

The haul from the INTL realm is phenomenal when you figure that getting a regular every 3 yrs from the INTL realm is above average. But what you dont get is that Cashman has very little to do with the draft except try and wrangle the boss for a draft budget. The guy who oversees the draft is Damon Oppenheimer. All of the post draft interviews are through Damon Oppenheimer. He is the director of scouting and he is the one who has to take all of the hard work, whittle it down to a pick and then convince the higher ups to pay up. You dont even know how it is done.

 

If you're not going to put Cashman on notice for the Yankees poor drafting, then who do you put it on? I am making the assumption that he was not given a significant advantage or disadvantage. In this, he failed miserably. No one he has ever drafted, not one, is a starter today.

 

Damon Oppenheimer started in 2006. Look at the draft from 2006, it was brilliant.

 

Jacko, insults aside, he has done a s***** job. We both root for the same team. We both want him to do well. However, I feel like you are taking defending Cashman as if you are defending yourself. It's not you who f***ed this up, he did. Look, I'd love it if all the players he signed ended up as stars. They haven't, so I've taken him to task for it.

 

You are looking for a fall guy when that fall guy has already fallen. George and his cronies went for 2002 and 2003 and 2004 and 2005 and 2006 without giving a rats ass about 2008, 2009, 2010. If Cashman didnt hire Oppenheimer and didnt get a budget to ensure that some later picks could get overslot money, then we'd be really f***ed right now. As it is, look at our top 50. A huge amount of them were signed after Oppenheimer came on board. He's the architect behind the farm system. Cashman is the architect behind bringing them along and when to promote/demote/cut and more importantly, he is the direct line between the money and the farm. Put more money in, you get a better farm. But as with all farms, they take time to grow.

 

When you say you're happy they didn't sign Bittle...THEY COULD HAVE DRAFTED SOMEONE ELSE!!!! It was a wasted pick.

 

They didnt know this at the time. You arent allowed to examine a player prior to the draft. His stuff was ridiculous and his numbers were insane, but when a doctor tells you they detect damage, are you really gonna go out there and spend the dough on this kid? I would have if the pick wasnt guaranteed, but there is no way you sign this kid, knowing his arm may explode when you can get the same pick the following yr. No way. THAT is a good move.

 

So was the first pick. Out of the first three picks, they got a pitcher who is damaged. You call that good Jacko? Honestly...what would be bad? If they signed a one-armed outfielder?

 

It looks like Bleich's injury was overblown. And in regards to Cole, every single news outlet and yankee outlet is reporting that the kid did a 180. When you draft players who are known signability cases, you will get burned no matter how much you are willing to pay. It happens.

 

The truth is, he is touting youth, but he hasn't delivered it in the past. This is why I don't believe him when he says build from within. If we had Theo, who brought up Pedrioa, Lester, Papelbon, Lowrie...then maybe I'd buy into it. He brought up Joba, who might just be the best of them all when done, but that it. Nothing more.

 

They drafted well for awhile now. And we actually had a higher rated farm in 2007, think about that. The luck they had with all these kids is ridiculous and that isnt likely to continue. Kids typically struggle when they come up. They dont usually come up as seamlessly as theirs have. You are still being extremely impatient, demanding that these kids produce from day 1. It doesnt happen that way. But someone with your intellectual fortitude already knew that, right?

 

You tout Robertson. 5.96 ERA. He's not just a good caliber reliever. You're off here.

You tout Veras. I like him. I think he has explosive stuff. I think you're on here.

 

ERA for a reliever is a stupid stat to follow. His BAA is good and his K/9 is very very good. It is the walks, and for a brand new rookie, this happens. Also, to be down on a kid who is 2 yrs removed from being drafted is stupid. Again, note the trend, a lot of your thoughts are stupid. A guy drafted in 2006 shouldnt see the bigs until 2009 at the earliest. This kid didnt play in 2006 since he was a late sign. He started in long season A ball and jumped 4 leagues and is in his fifth in a yr and a half. That is insane.

 

Jacko, please don't take this as a personal insult. We both root for the same team. However, look past your arguments with me on a personal level and see that he has done a poor job. I am making the assumption that he had the same fiscal resources as the other teams for once, and not an advantage. He's failied. He has shown an inability to compete evenly when he isn't given a fiscal advantage. He's a poor GM, Jacko. He's the reason we are in the predicament we are today.

 

I am not saying that I like the team we field in the Bronx in 2008. But I know what is coming and we have seen flashes of what to expect. The organization is in a much, much better shape since Cashman took the reigns in 2006. Unfortunately for most new yorkers and yankee fans, we will have to wait until that future comes upon us.

[Gom]

Actually, I am smarter, he works harder. We both readily admit it. I don't get it.

 

Anyways, you believe that the following is successful.

 

Top three picks.

One doesn't sign.

Two needs surgery.

Three we don't sign because he's injured.

 

You think that's good? Jacko, I don't know anything about the draft. Neither does my dog. If I put all the players in a hat and had my dog pick out of a hat, she would have done better. The only thing she knows about baseball is that the baseballs are fun to fetch, and they taste good. It seems like Cashman probably doesn't know much more.

 

Jacko, you fail in the aspect of accountability. He was the GM. It was under HIS watch. I can understand if you think [as I do] that Cashman was overrode by George and he went and got Sheff instead of Vlad. I think George probably knows as much as I do about the draft. Which is next to nothing.

 

It is obvious that Cashman can do no wrong to you. Sadly, you take critiquing of your team's GM as a personal affront to your intelligence. That's plain stupid, Jacko. I'm not attacking you, but I'm attacking your defense of a sub-standard GM [iMO]. You take it personally, because, well, you're an idiot. That's not the point. The point is this, when did his employ begin? I'll buy the three year rule. Add three years to when he started, and that's his draft record. He had one good draft. He got Joba. Not good for approximately 10 years. Compare what he's done to the Red Sox, hell, compare it to pretty much any team, and he's been well below average.

 

Now, I hope I'm wrong. But when I see his players that he drafted, like Hughes and Kennedy fall flat on their faces, and can't miss prospects like Tabata take steps back [although he did net us Nady/Marte, so he served a great role], or players like Sanchez or Brackman need TJ surgery, or that he can't sign a first round pick and then they don't sign their 3rd round pick because his arm is destroyed....well, as a layman, I can't see how he's good.

 

I judge a farm system by how good the players are that come up from the minors or whether they are used to get something good.

 

He's brought up Joba, who looks like a star in the making. Tabata is the second best since he netted Nady/Marte. The rest is crap so far.

 

I hope I'm wrong, I hope they turn into stars. I think there's a better chance he's out of a job before that happens, because if you base it on what I see based on his tenure with the Yankees and what's come up, then he's done a bad job.

 

Also...there was no reason to wait Jacko. Two year deals until that future arrived was the way to go. I can understand if he wants to shy away from 6-7 up to 10 year deals, but supplement what you need until they get here. He doesn't know how to do that either.

[jacksonianmarch]

Actually, I am smarter, he works harder. We both readily admit it. I don't get it.

 

Anyways, you believe that the following is successful.

 

Top three picks.

One doesn't sign.

Two needs surgery.

Three we don't sign because he's injured.

 

You think that's good? Jacko, I don't know anything about the draft. Neither does my dog. If I put all the players in a hat and had my dog pick out of a hat, she would have done better. The only thing she knows about baseball is that the baseballs are fun to fetch, and they taste good. It seems like Cashman probably doesn't know much more.

 

Of course that isnt optimal. But sometimes, s*** happens. The good thing is, we have both of those picks guaranteed for next yr.

 

Jacko, you fail in the aspect of accountability. He was the GM. It was under HIS watch. I can understand if you think [as I do] that Cashman was overrode by George and he went and got Sheff instead of Vlad. I think George probably knows as much as I do about the draft. Which is next to nothing.

 

Once again, the GM does not run the draft. You have to understand this. He is way too busy with the big club to be able to pour over thousands of scouting reports and put a master list together. He is way too busy to make all the calls to kid prior to the draft to assess their signability. He does not have the time to fly to the dominican to see how the players in their baseball academy look. He doesnt have the time to assess the big ticket Japanese and dominican signees that may be outside his academy. That is a MASSIVE job. This is the job of the scouting director and his many people below him. The fact that Cashman relieved the other guy of this job and named Oppenheimer is a boon, since the draft and IFA's since his appointment have been very, very good.

 

It is obvious that Cashman can do no wrong to you.

 

Once he made a commitment to change the organizational philosophy and used his employment as leverage to gain this change, he earned a ton of respect from me. Albeit, he will have to deliver. But his plan is not a one yr fix, it is a 4 yr plan. This is yr 2 IMO.

 

Sadly, you take critiquing of your team's GM as a personal affront to your intelligence. That's plain stupid, Jacko. I'm not attacking you, but I'm attacking your defense of a sub-standard GM [iMO]. You take it personally, because, well, you're an idiot. That's not the point. The point is this, when did his employ begin? I'll buy the three year rule. Add three years to when he started, and that's his draft record. He had one good draft. He got Joba. Not good for approximately 10 years. Compare what he's done to the Red Sox, hell, compare it to pretty much any team, and he's been well below average.

 

You still arent understanding the change in direction this franchise took when Cashman essentially got the Tampa faction disbanded. Are you that f***ing stupid? Do you seriously think that things are run in the same fashion as they were in the late 90s? Cashman made an organizational change in 2006 and it is working. You just need to give it time.

 

Now, I hope I'm wrong. But when I see his players that he drafted, like Hughes and Kennedy fall flat on their faces, and can't miss prospects like Tabata take steps back [although he did net us Nady/Marte, so he served a great role], or players like Sanchez or Brackman need TJ surgery, or that he can't sign a first round pick and then they don't sign their 3rd round pick because his arm is destroyed....well, as a layman, I can't see how he's good.

 

Hughes was the consensus #1 pitching prospect in 2007. The fact that he cannot stay healthy is not on Cashman. Kennedy was drafted in 2006 and has already pitched in major league games in 2 different seasons. Calling that a bust is dumb. Tabata was a solid signing and essentially got massive return on that investment. Brackman, once again, was the second best talent in the entire draft, and we got him at the slot we did because of the surgery. We didnt get our man this yr, but if we did, he would have been a top 5 talent. Do you really understand what I am saying? 3 yrs in a row, he gets a top 5 talent (Joba in 2006 was considered a top 10 talent but injury moved him to the supp round) while picking in the last 3-5 spots. Are you that numb? Think. The fact that the kid didnt sign this yr is the risk you take when you draft these kids. And like I have said a thousand times, the scouting was not done by Cash, but by Oppenheimer.

 

I judge a farm system by how good the players are that come up from the minors or whether they are used to get something good.

 

And when judging a system that has significantly improved from top to bottom in the past 2 yrs, you wont see the results yet. Trying to yield results now is dumb.

 

He's brought up Joba, who looks like a star in the making. Tabata is the second best since he netted Nady/Marte. The rest is crap so far.

 

This is why you should go back to being a fan and stop spouting about something you know nothing about.

 

I hope I'm wrong, I hope they turn into stars. I think there's a better chance he's out of a job before that happens, because if you base it on what I see based on his tenure with the Yankees and what's come up, then he's done a bad job.

 

They all wont. Thats the thing. It is all about bringing in as much talent as possible and seeing what pans out

 

Also...there was no reason to wait Jacko. Two year deals until that future arrived was the way to go. I can understand if he wants to shy away from 6-7 up to 10 year deals, but supplement what you need until they get here. He doesn't know how to do that either.

 

 

This is his biggest flaw. He didnt build a bridge to the future very well. And that is something you can burn him for. Mark my words, we'll see a better glimpse of the future next yr and come 2010, the system will shine. That is yr 4 of the 4 yr plan IMO.

[ARod2212]

Actually, I am smarter, he works harder. We both readily admit it. I don't get it.

 

Anyways, you believe that the following is successful.

 

Top three picks.

One doesn't sign.

Two needs surgery.

Three we don't sign because he's injured.

 

You think that's good? Jacko, I don't know anything about the draft. Neither does my dog. If I put all the players in a hat and had my dog pick out of a hat, she would have done better. The only thing she knows about baseball is that the baseballs are fun to fetch, and they taste good. It seems like Cashman probably doesn't know much more.

 

Jacko, you fail in the aspect of accountability. He was the GM. It was under HIS watch. I can understand if you think [as I do] that Cashman was overrode by George and he went and got Sheff instead of Vlad. I think George probably knows as much as I do about the draft. Which is next to nothing.

 

It is obvious that Cashman can do no wrong to you. Sadly, you take critiquing of your team's GM as a personal affront to your intelligence. That's plain stupid, Jacko. I'm not attacking you, but I'm attacking your defense of a sub-standard GM [iMO]. You take it personally, because, well, you're an idiot. That's not the point. The point is this, when did his employ begin? I'll buy the three year rule. Add three years to when he started, and that's his draft record. He had one good draft. He got Joba. Not good for approximately 10 years. Compare what he's done to the Red Sox, hell, compare it to pretty much any team, and he's been well below average.

 

Now, I hope I'm wrong. But when I see his players that he drafted, like Hughes and Kennedy fall flat on their faces, and can't miss prospects like Tabata take steps back [although he did net us Nady/Marte, so he served a great role], or players like Sanchez or Brackman need TJ surgery, or that he can't sign a first round pick and then they don't sign their 3rd round pick because his arm is destroyed....well, as a layman, I can't see how he's good.

 

I judge a farm system by how good the players are that come up from the minors or whether they are used to get something good.

 

He's brought up Joba, who looks like a star in the making. Tabata is the second best since he netted Nady/Marte. The rest is crap so far.

 

I hope I'm wrong, I hope they turn into stars. I think there's a better chance he's out of a job before that happens, because if you base it on what I see based on his tenure with the Yankees and what's come up, then he's done a bad job.

 

Also...there was no reason to wait Jacko. Two year deals until that future arrived was the way to go. I can understand if he wants to shy away from 6-7 up to 10 year deals, but supplement what you need until they get here. He doesn't know how to do that either.

Not ripping on you at all, but Jacko addressed each of your points individually and gave reasons for everything he wrote, while you're just posting a catchall response without any specific rebuttal to what he's saying. You didn't say anything about Oppenheimer, how it is now Cashman's team, and how long it should take prospects to develop.

 

If he's taking the time and effort to specifically address your concerns, you should probably at least try to match that respect. It would help your credibility and encourage more intellectual debate.

[yankee20715]

Actually' date=' I am smarter, he works harder. We both readily admit it. I don't get it. [/quote']

 

You may be smarter, but your brother is funnier. A lot funnier. Funniest guy I ever did meet.

 

 

 

Not ripping on you at all, but Jacko addressed each of your points individually and gave reasons for everything he wrote, while you're just posting a catchall response without any specific rebuttal to what he's saying. You didn't say anything about Oppenheimer, how it is now Cashman's team, and how long it should take prospects to develop.

 

If he's taking the time and effort to specifically address your concerns, you should probably at least try to match that respect. It would help your credibility and encourage more intellectual debate.

 

http://portal.duf.hu/img/upload/200801/telephone.jpg

 

s*** Gom he just called you out

[jacksonianmarch]

Just to reiterate the point, take a look at these prospects added since the beginning of 2006...

 

2008

Gian Carlo Arias

Jackson Valera

Anderson Felix

Ramon Flores

Yicok Calderon

Alfredo Aceves

Manuel Banuelos

Jeremy Bleich

David Adams

Corban Joseph

Chris Smith

Brett Marshall

Mikey O'Brien

Kyle Higashioka

Will Mitchell

Matt Richardson

Garrison Lassiter

David Phelps

Nik Turley

 

2007

Kelvin De Leon

Eduardo Sosa

Andrew Brackman

Ryan Pope

Austin Romine

Arodys Vizcaino

Bradley Suttle

Damon Sublett

Carmen Angelini

Manny Barreda

Justin Snyder

Brandon Laird

 

2006

Jesus Montero

Jairo Heredia

Carlos Urena

Ian Kennedy

Joba Chamberlain

Zach McAllister

George Kontos

Dellin Betances

Mark Melancon

Mitch Hilligoss

Tim Norton (steal if he didnt blow out his shoulder)

Humberto Sanchez

Kevin Whelan

Daniel McCutchen

David Robertson

Chris Malec

 

As you can see, the lists get a bit smaller as the yrs go on as guys go down with injury and ineffectiveness. But all of these players above project to be major league ballplayers. Some with all star caliber talent. Some with starter talent. Some with utility/relief talent. But all with big league talent. This is new to the organization when we had maybe 2-3 prospects per draft and 47 fillers. Now, we are seeing 7-8 prospects per draft and a bunch of signability guys who dont sign. IE, we arent drafting to fill. We are drafting to win.

[Gom]

You may be smarter' date=' but your brother is funnier. A lot funnier. Funniest guy I ever did meet.[/quote']

No debate there. Nothing, and I mean nothing....will ever beat......"It Never Ends". Never.

Of course that isnt optimal. But sometimes' date=' s*** happens. The good thing is, we have both of those picks guaranteed for next yr.[/quote']

Didn't know that.

Once again, the GM does not run the draft. You have to understand this. He is way too busy with the big club to be able to pour over thousands of scouting reports and put a master list together. He is way too busy to make all the calls to kid prior to the draft to assess their signability. He does not have the time to fly to the dominican to see how the players in their baseball academy look. He doesnt have the time to assess the big ticket Japanese and dominican signees that may be outside his academy. That is a MASSIVE job. This is the job of the scouting director and his many people below him. The fact that Cashman relieved the other guy of this job and named Oppenheimer is a boon, since the draft and IFA's since his appointment have been very, very good.

But he's the man in charge. Look Jacko, when a corporation goes under, you blame the CEO. Now, we can't get rid of the owner, so you get rid of the GM. He's the one in charge.

 

Jacko, I will say this. You know more about what goes on in the minor league level of the Yankees, including drafting/scouting than I will ever know. My knowledge is layman's level. I just see what I see in the majors. What I see is nothing has come up from a draft in over a decade from when they have been drafted, except for Joba. That's not enough.

 

I appreciate your posts on the Yankees minor league system, but I don't see your love of this guy. He's just not a strong GM. If what you're saying is true, and this Oppenheimer is a genius, then Cashman's strength was hiring him. His trades and major league free agent signings have not been good enough for me. Now, no one wants to eat his words on Cashman more than me, because that will mean I was wrong, and that he did a good job and the Yankees do well. However, I do wish you were a little more objective and not blindly follow this guy. Where I do agree for the most part with your and his viewpoint of building from within, I just haven't seen him do it yet.

 

I wish you'd distance yourself from Cashman a bit. The debates would be more informative. I was one of the first ones that called his Nady/Marte deal a steal, and commended him for it.

 

Try to see this viewpoint. I see literally nothing at the major league level for 10+ years that's come up from the draft. I hear that he's doing a great job from you [and others]. I see pitchers with 88 MPH fastballs, and what looks to be so far, a Pavano-redux. I see nothing that swings a bat well.

 

I hear that out of the first three picks, he signs one, and that it's a TJ surgery. The centerpiece of the Sheffield deal was a TJ surgery. Last year's first round pick was a TJ surgery.

 

Seriously...what am I supposed to think? I haven't seen results Jacko. Just broken promises.

 

Mark my words, we'll see a better glimpse of the future next yr and come 2010, the system will shine. That is yr 4 of the 4 yr plan IMO.

I hope so. From your mouth to God's ears. However, I'm not willing to wait two more years. Put up a winner next year, or be gone.

[jacksonianmarch]

He has to put something into the major league level next yr that is exogenous, that much is for sure. If he doesnt sign a big time FA, then he is putting his neck on the chopping block one yr earlier than is intended. This is why I think he signs some big time free agents. 2009 is another transition yr IMO. 2010 is the goal. If he doesnt sign someone big and the yankees dont make it to the playoffs in 2009, he wont be employed to enjoy the fruits of his labors

[jacksonianmarch]

And yes, Gom. The Yankees get an extra first and second rounder because Cole and Bittle did not sign. And these are guaranteed. No matter who we sign, those picks will be there. This is why letting Bittle fly was a good move. If the pick wasnt guaranteed, then you gotta take him. But as of right now, we have 2 first rounders and 2 second rounders in 2009. That is before all of the free agents fly the coop

[Gom]

But those picks aren't protected, right?

[jacksonianmarch]

The compensation picks are not. So those picks will have some leverage, but so be it. But all other picks in the first 2 rounds are. And when you consider the amount of players leaving, we will have multiple other protected picks around the unprotected ones. This means, we could potentially choose a bit more conservative in those picks, or just snag guys and pay them top dollar. Regardless, I expect our draft budget to be ridiculous next yr just to be able to sign the players we'll get in the first round.

[Gom]

So basically, we should be great in 2013. Kind of a long wait, lol.

[schillingouttheks]

If we make it to 2013.

 

After all, 12/23/12 is supposed to be the apocalypse! HEAD FOR THE HILLSSS

[Cocos Disciples]

Damnit, no XMas 2012.

[schillingouttheks]

Damnit' date=' no XMas 2012.[/quote']

 

[ARod2212]

If we make it to 2013.

 

After all, 12/23/12 is supposed to be the apocalypse! HEAD FOR THE HILLSSS

Is that eastern or pacific time?

[Mr Crunchy]

our friend jackson is a doctor

what the f*** do they know about being accountable outside paying malpractice juice thru the ass?

seriously though,cano and especially wang werent heralded and on the other hand a lot of these big name signees are doomed to failure because it just is that way...nobody in A ball is a guarantee,nobody in AA this time of year is either..

accidents injuries,the joys of wine women drugs and booze lay dormant in all of us,some of us more than others,the key is scouting MLB talent,not AA allstar talent but MLB talent and there is a difference.

i couldnt pick a MLB out of a lineup of chinese gymnasts but i can usually tell within their 1st 2 summers if theyre going to make it a career or not...I always liked pavano from day 1( i adore him now) but brian rose and tomo okha both had better AAA #s...Pavano got the 40M

[Gom]

Yup.