Bullpen Concerns

[Gom]

We did. Say what you want about us in the bleachers, but we know the game as well as anyone.

[The Dustball]

We did. Say what you want about us in the bleachers' date=' but we know the game as well as anyone.[/quote']

 

I'm sure there were plenty of fans like yourself who realize what he did was special, but alot of Yankees fans don't give a s*** about Francona and his effort to make the game memorable.

[a700hitter]

I hate to say it, but Francona is a class act as a manager.

 

He let Jeter bat second, which he didn't deserve, and Arod bat fourth in the All Star game. He took both out in the middle of the inning so they could get the applause from the fans.

 

Rather than take a chance on not using Rivera, he burned Krod to get Rivera a guaranteed chance at pitching in a tie game.

 

Hat's off to you Francona. You understand the history and the tradition of the game as well as any manager I've ever seen.

 

As a Yankee fan, seeing the final All-Star game at the Stadium, you made it as special as you could with your managerial decisions.

 

As a Yankee fan....thank you.

Which is why the Daily News low blow on Papelbon was so despicable. There never was a controversy about who was going to close the game. Francona communicates very well with his players. I am sure that Papelbon knew where things stood before they arrived in NY, and Papelbon was not lobbying with Francona for him to change his mind. Francona respects the game and its players. Sometimes his respect for his players can cause an "L" but you have to take the good with the bad. His good points far outweight the negatives.

[YAZMAN]

Which is why the Daily News low blow on Papelbon was so despicable. There never was a controversy about who was going to close the game. Francona communicates very well with his players. I am sure that Papelbon knew where things stood before they arrived in NY' date=' and Papelbon was not lobbying with Francona for him to change his mind. Francona respects the game and its players. Sometimes his respect for his players can cause an "L" but you have to take the good with the bad. His good points far outweight the negatives.[/quote']

 

 

f*** the Daily News, their job is to sell newspapers and that's what they obviously try to do - everyday, not just around the All-Star game.

 

And anybody can say what they want about Tito and his strategic managerial skills, but last night demonstrated that he truly loves the game and has a tangible respect for both the game, its' players, and its' history.

[a700hitter]

f*** the Daily News' date=' their job is to sell newspapers and that's what they obviously try to do - everyday, not just around the All-Star game.[/quote']It has become a tabloid. I remember a time when it was a newspaper.

[Bostonownsyou]

Not sure if this is the right place to open a thread like this but it has been quite some time since I have had time to post. I'll start with the positives....

 

 

1. Besides alot of bad injuries still in first place and the heros from last years team got a little better position wise.

 

2. Terry Francona, say what you want but with Okajima showing he was a fluke Timlin looking utterly shot and Hansen hit or miss he is still finding ways to get Paps the ball.

 

3. A break from Julio Lugo.. this guy busts my chops like noone else the worst short stop since kaz matsui. If Lowrie can give us anything we may not have to suffer with him much longer... Maybe some of you guys are Lugo fans but this is just my opinon he irks me.

 

4. Teky is clearly not the hitter he was but he calls a great game still, Drew is performing.

 

5. Beckett hasn't been outstanding yet the rotation is still servicable.

 

 

The negatives

 

 

1. The teams road play... now they just invent ways to lose on the road wether it's the hitting the bullpen the defense it gets more and more commical with each tough loss.

 

2. Okajima, Lopez, and Timlin have been nothing short of brutal since mid or late May. I'd love to get Brian Fuentes here or Marte.

 

3. The no bunting station to station baseball. When Ellsbury is cold the team is slow on the bases. Sean Casey is a penguin basically. We can use more taking the extra base especially with the dreadfull 7 8 9 hitters. It's a almost lock that Crisp Tek and Lugo can't do anything but hit medium fly balls so why not try to take third on a single with less then 2 outs.

 

5. The bench minus Moss and Casey... I miss Hinske and Red headed Bobby Kielty.

 

 

So at this point grading from A-F I have to give a C+

 

Hope you guys join in with your opinons....

[Cocos Disciples]

A C+? That's low I think. We've missed Ortiz for a good chunk of time, and Beckett, Matsuzaka, Buchholz and Lowell have on spent time on the DL. And we had a pretty rough schedule. We're in first by 1/2 a game, and according to Pythag it should be a 4 1/2 game lead.

[jacksonianmarch]

Injuries have limited both our teams and have decimated the Jays. So to grade things out you must take that into account.

[ORS]

Re: the opinons, whatever the hell those are...

 

The good:

 

1. Yep, they are in better shape than I would have guessed if you told me Ortiz would have been out for over a month (and sucked for the first month).

 

2. Francona's "getting the ball to Papelbon" is a bit of misnomer. He's had several opportunities to either reduce or eliminate the opponents chances in a close game on the road by using Papelbon before the 9th with a lead or in the 9th without the lead and failed to do so every time, and then subsequently used Papelbon the next day with a 4+ run lead. Horrible usage of the best reliever by leverage. He gets no nod from me there. And, while Oki has been bad, he hasn't entered fluke territory yet. That will happen when he can throw his split-change for strikes and still gets hit like he is now. It was the pitch that made him so effective last year and early this year. For some reason, he completely lost the feel for it in May.

 

The bad:

 

1. See #2 from "The good".

 

2. Brian Fuentes would be a nice addition, but what does he cost?

 

3. Sac bunts are outs. The game state expected runs matrix predicts 0.89 runs with a runner on 1st with no outs, and 0.68 with a runner on 2nd with one out. Now, what that doesn't show is that the likelihood of scoring one run is greater in the second scenario. Thus, it makes sense to do it when all you need/want is one run. In most such situations, multiple runs are more desirable/necessary. As for taking 3rd on a single, that is entirely situation dependent. The runner, fielder, and location of the single determine the appropriate amount of aggressiveness. Why risk making an out at 3rd when you can have a runner at 2nd without question?

 

Carry on.

[BoSox21]

honestly, did anyone expect anything less from Francona? The man has displayed his class and professionalism at every given opportunity since he arrived in Boston, and probably over his entire career although I wasn't familiar with him before

[VA Sox Fan]

honestly' date=' did anyone expect anything less from Francona? The man has displayed his class and professionalism at every given opportunity since he arrived in Boston, and probably over his entire career although I wasn't familiar with him before[/quote']

 

Agree 100%. He does love the game and it's a mess what the game has done to his body. See below.

 

 

Francona discusses his, Ortiz' ailments

 

Posted by Matt Porter, Globe Correspondent July 16, 2008 12:45 PM

 

Red Sox manager Terry Francona confirmed a report by the Globe's Gordon Edes today that said he would have an injection to alleviate numbness and pain on his left side today at Massachusetts General Hospital. Francona told WEEI's Dale and Holley show that the procedure is connected to an old back injury, and that today's day off is, "the only time I could do it."

 

"My body is falling apart at times," added Francona. "I've had a ton of numbness and weakness in my left arm. I've got to get it taken care of, because we've got a lot of baseball left to play." The Sox resume play Friday night in Anaheim against the Los Angeles Angels.

 

In other injury-related news, Francona said David Ortiz will play tomorrow in Pawtucket and will play for the PawSox until Sunday's game against the Toledo Mud Hens.

 

Ortiz showed flashes of his pre-injury self during batting practice before the All-Star game. "He was hitting some balls pretty deep up into that second deck, which is pretty good news for Red Sox fans," said Francona.

[TheKilo]

Not sure if this is the right place to open a thread like this but it has been quite some time since I have had time to post. I'll start with the positives....

 

1. Besides alot of bad injuries still in first place and the heros from last years team got a little better position wise.

 

What does this mean, getting better position-wise? I agree the loss of Ortiz and others hurt in terms of injury but out of the position players, these are the ones who I think have had a "better" 1st half than last season:

 

Youkilis

Drew

 

"Worse" 1st halves:

 

Ortiz

Crisp

Varitek

 

"Status Quo":

 

Pedroia

Lowell

Lugo

Ramirez

 

And I think you can make the case Ramirez and Lowell have had worse starts than last year.

 

 

2. Terry Francona, say what you want but with Okajima showing he was a fluke Timlin looking utterly shot and Hansen hit or miss he is still finding ways to get Paps the ball.

 

ORS mentioned this - there are a lot of things Francona does well, this is not one of them. Coco's point of us underperforming our pythag by 4 games is a clue - we did the same last year.

 

Off the field, the guy's great. Between the lines he can improve.

 

3. A break from Julio Lugo.. this guy busts my chops like noone else the worst short stop since kaz matsui. If Lowrie can give us anything we may not have to suffer with him much longer... Maybe some of you guys are Lugo fans but this is just my opinon he irks me.

 

I defended the signing but I can't any more - however, if you look at SS around the AL you can definitely do a lot worse than what Lugo has provided. A ~.350 OBP and his defense has stabilized recently.

 

That being said, I'm excited to see what Lowrie can do and hope Francona gives him a shot instead of Cora.

 

4. Teky is clearly not the hitter he was but he calls a great game still

 

*Vomits*

 

Drew is performing.

 

Duh?

 

5. Beckett hasn't been outstanding yet the rotation is still servicable.

 

Beckett's peripheral numbers are excellent. He will win 8+ starts the second half of the year, I am supremely confident of this. His HR rate is a little fluky but everything else is awesome.

 

 

The negatives

 

 

1. The teams road play... now they just invent ways to lose on the road wether it's the hitting the bullpen the defense it gets more and more commical with each tough loss.

 

No argument.

 

2. Okajima, Lopez, and Timlin have been nothing short of brutal since mid or late May. I'd love to get Brian Fuentes here or Marte.

 

Those guy aren't the answer because of the prospects they would cost. Jon Rauch of Washington is an intriguing option though.

 

3. The no bunting station to station baseball. When Ellsbury is cold the team is slow on the bases. Sean Casey is a penguin basically. We can use more taking the extra base especially with the dreadfull 7 8 9 hitters. It's a almost lock that Crisp Tek and Lugo can't do anything but hit medium fly balls so why not try to take third on a single with less then 2 outs.

 

*Vomits*

 

You have 27 outs in a baseball game. There are very few circumstances in which you should give them away.

 

5. The bench minus Moss and Casey... I miss Hinske and Red headed Bobby Kielty.

 

Moss is better than Kielty. Hinske is having a great year, no doubt, but many wanted the guy gone after last season.

 

I'd call up Dusty Brown to take Cash's spot.

 

 

So at this point grading from A-F I have to give a C+

 

Hope you guys join in with your opinons....

 

I give them a solid B - they're in first after going through a lot of injuries (credit to Theo for providing depth) - their road record has to improve though.

[TheKilo]

The guy is pure class. His players love him. He handles the media well.

 

Between the lines his moves can be questioned, but he's a postseason assassin and deserves all the good things that come to him.

[Mr Crunchy]

it really is a shame that so many nyers were pissed off at a ******** story by marky mark feisand that they werent able to enjoy the best game ever between leagues...

hopefully MLB will understand that the bronx isnt a place for the allstar game nor are the fans deserving of another....they need to keep the game from that flowing cess pool permanetly

[rician blast]

I hate to admit it but I think had it been the other way around (in other words a complete reversal of careers, stadium history, etc) and a Yankee slighted a Sox player, there'd be some dumbass writer stirring the pot and a portion of the Sox fan base up in arms.

 

How does that saying go? "There are ****stains on both sides"...or something like that?

 

Not sure if the outrage would have been quite what was displayed in the Bronx though.

[soxfan17881]

You know, we can argue all damn day about who sucks more and what Papelbon meant or didn't mean when he was dumb enough to say something complicated to a reporter to try and translate. What I'm looking for is a volunteer the take this rivalry, roll it in to a f***ing lump and jam it up their ass!

 

The bottom line is that the crowd at the All Star game was nauseating when Paps came out to pitch. Absolutely f***ing classless!. Whether or not the New York fans prefer Rivera (like...no s*** they prefer him) Papelbon deserved to play in that game just like every other player that night. Ass-rag newspapers are expected to do s*** like "Papelbum" headlines. Baseball fans are supposed to have more respect for the game, or at least I believe they should. And before anyone says it, I'd write the same thing if it had been the crowd in some other park and it was A-Rod they were after. I'm not going to debate this point, but I know someone will argue with me.

 

It's bad enough to boo in a friggin' exhibition game. But to go on and on and on like f***ing second graders for the entire time he was on the mound is EXACTLY the kind of thing that makes SO MANY PEOPLE HATE NEW YORK TEAMS AND THEIR MUTTON-HEAD FANS!

 

And not as though this version of New York, the epicenter of "bigger is better" and "out live, out do," wasn't sufficient, the various demonstrations of boorishness during more than one part of the All Star festivities (and toward more than one person) are dwarfed in comparison to death threats against Papelbon's pregnant wife.

 

So here's to you, New York. What a bunch of weapons grade f***-sticks!

[VA Sox Fan]

You know, we can argue all damn day about who sucks more and what Papelbon meant or didn't mean when he was dumb enough to say something complicated to a reporter to try and translate. What I'm looking for is a volunteer the take this rivalry, roll it in to a f***ing lump and jam it up their ass!

 

The bottom line is that the crowd at the All Star game was nauseating when Paps came out to pitch. Absolutely f***ing classless!. Whether or not the New York fans prefer Rivera (like...no s*** they prefer him) Papelbon deserved to play in that game just like every other player that night. Ass-rag newspapers are expected to do s*** like "Papelbum" headlines. Baseball fans are supposed to have more respect for the game, or at least I believe they should. And before anyone says it, I'd write the same thing if it had been the crowd in some other park and it was A-Rod they were after. I'm not going to debate this point, but I know someone will argue with me.

 

It's bad enough to boo in a friggin' exhibition game. But to go on and on and on like f***ing second graders for the entire time he was on the mound is EXACTLY the kind of thing that makes SO MANY PEOPLE HATE NEW YORK TEAMS AND THEIR MUTTON-HEAD FANS!

 

And not as though this version of New York, the epicenter of "bigger is better" and "out live, out do," wasn't sufficient, the various demonstrations of boorishness during more than one part of the All Star festivities (and toward more than one person) are dwarfed in comparison to death threats against Papelbon's pregnant wife.

 

So here's to you, New York. What a bunch of weapons grade f***-sticks!

 

 

:thumbsup:

[TheKilo]

I didn't even get mad about it. The Yankee fans have a huge inferiority complex to deal with right now and they're not equipped mentally to do so.

 

Think about it...before 2004, who would be the ones booing Yankee all stars? This is exaclty the stuff Sox fans used to do.

 

All you have to do is think, laugh about it, and realize that the Sox were (a) an integral part of winning homefield for the AL (which has a good chance of directly benefiting them come October and ( swept the MVP awards with Lin and Drew.

 

A Sox prospect and their starting RF were the MVPs in the final All Star Games at Yankee Stadium. How sweet is that?

[soxfan17881]

I didn't even get mad about it. The Yankee fans have a huge inferiority complex to deal with right now and they're not equipped mentally to do so.

 

Think about it...before 2004, who would be the ones booing Yankee all stars? This is exaclty the stuff Sox fans used to do.

 

All you have to do is think, laugh about it, and realize that the Sox were (a) an integral part of winning homefield for the AL (which has a good chance of directly benefiting them come October and ( swept the MVP awards with Lin and Drew.

 

A Sox prospect and their starting RF were the MVPs in the final All Star Games at Yankee Stadium. How sweet is that?

 

You're right of course. But I no longer give a s*** about being the "bigger person" where these dickheads are concerned. And like I said, if it was Sox fans doing that in the same way in the same circumstances, I'd tell those Sox fans they were douche-bags just like I'm telling the current twits.

[soxfan17881]

it really is a shame that so many nyers were pissed off at a ******** story by marky mark feisand that they werent able to enjoy the best game ever between leagues...

hopefully MLB will understand that the bronx isnt a place for the allstar game nor are the fans deserving of another....they need to keep the game from that flowing cess pool permanetly

 

It wasn't the story that pissed me off. I expect nothing less from the press. What pissed me off was the behavior of the New York fans through out the All Star festivities. Of course I suppose I'll eventually learn not to expect any class out of that group, either.

[Mr Crunchy]

in 99 we cheered the then world champions manager,joe torre,as he took the field for the american league here in boston.

we were 1 with the rest of the american league.

in ny i wonder if they understood that the sox and yanks were on the same team tuesday evening.

[BudLight]

You're right of course. But I no longer give a s*** about being the "bigger person" where these dickheads are concerned. And like I said' date=' if it was Sox fans doing that in the same way in the same circumstances, I'd tell those Sox fans they were douche-bags just like I'm telling the current twits.[/quote']

 

soxfan17881 - how long have you been a Sox fan??

[BudLight]

in 99 we cheered the then world champions manager,joe torre,as he took the field for the american league here in boston.

we were 1 with the rest of the american league.

in ny i wonder if they understood that the sox and yanks were on the same team tuesday evening.

 

blasphemy, blasphemy I say

[rician blast]

Gotta say when the boos rained down, especially on Francona, I just laughed and thought about how bad the fans were making themselves look and how pre-occupied they seem to be with the Sox.

 

It was about then I really wished that Paps hadn't said a word because I don't like giving any motivation to the Yankee fans that choose to act like idiots...or giving them what they might, in their twisted f***ing heads, consider an excuse to be *******s.

[a700hitter]

It was about then I really wished that Paps hadn't said a word because I don't like giving any motivation to the Yankee fans that choose to act like idiots...or giving them what they might' date=' in their twisted f***ing heads, consider an excuse to be *******s.[/quote']I don't think you are looking at it from the right point of view. It doesn't matter if the stupid NY fans are motivated to act like jerks, because they act like jerks anyway. The whole event might well have given the Red Sox players some additional motivation to beat the Yankees. There really is no rivalry between the players on the two teams, but the players just might take a little more joy in as Curt Schilling once said "making 55,000 fans in Yankee Stadium shut up. Hopefully, the Red Sox fans will not act like royal asses when the Yankees come to town. Boo them like hell, but hopefully the fans don't go over the top.

[yankees228]

Honestly, I know you've been quite outspoken about how much you hate the Yankee fans because of how they treated the Red Sox players, but did you really expect anything different?

[TheKilo]

It'd be awesome if the Sox fans cheered Rivera. Again.

[VA Sox Fan]

I hated how a lot of Yankee fans treated me for being a Sox fan prior to 2004.

 

A lot are spoiled and not used to losing so they act like fk'n brats who don't get their way.

 

We were all ONE team Tuesday night but a lot of fans were a complete embarassment. Speaking of embarassing, I actually rooted for the NYY in the 2001 WS.

[VA Sox Fan]

It'd be awesome if the Sox fans cheered Rivera. Again.

 

That was classic at the 2005 Ring Ceremony. Mo was a great sport too.

[rician blast]

I don't think you are looking at it from the right point of view. It doesn't matter if the stupid NY fans are motivated to act like jerks' date=' because they act like jerks anyway. [/quote']

 

I respectfully disagree.

 

A segment of their fan base acts that way, regardless, yes. However, when someone flaps their gums like Paps did, it serves as an "excuse" and diminishes the ability for other team's fans (i.e. Sox fans) to point to the behavior as inappropriate. It becomes "you did this" vs. "He did that first" kind of ******** that too many "fans" get caught up in.

 

As much as you and I may dislike the behavior they exhibited, to some warped fans it's warranted given the comments that were made and exacerbated by media's handling of the issue.

 

I just don't like giving ammunition. As you astutley pointed out, these types of fans will be jerks anyway...so let them be jerks without a reason, or without a cause..it makes them look that much worse.